EPT[SPOILERS]ProLeague Finals Speculations! - Page 3
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
On February 16 2006 20:07 tfeign wrote: Oh and keep in mind that Kespa rankings don't even take into account stuff like BWWI, Blizzcon, etc...where KTF players owned even more. If Kespa took these events into account, I can't imagine how much more KTF would own up the chart. I do see your point, and that you're posting all this solely to refute whoever said KTF underachieves. But will you stop mentioning WWI and Blizzcon? It's annoying. They were invite only tourneys (no tough qualification process) and in both tourneys, 3 KTF members got invited and 0 SKT members got invited. Hardly fair to count that as an achievement (If Boxer/Oov/Midas got chosen, they'd own it up just as hard). Anyway, the original point was that KTF players haven't been doing poorly. tfeign was refuting whoever said "KTF are a bunch of underachievers," and he made his point pretty clear. Whoever achieved more, SKT or KTF, the point stands. KTF is not underachieving. That's what he set out to prove, and that's exactly what he did. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On February 16 2006 20:07 tfeign wrote: Why KTF will beat SKT1: Their players are perhaps in the best individual shapes ever. I strongly disagree with that. Yellow is far from his best shape, same with Reach and Sync. Nal_rA is in "pretty good" shape, nothing more. Only Chojja is in his top shape in my opinion. SKT1 players have not won any individual leages since 2004. They did great overall in the last few months (as did KTF), which is a lot more relevant than the number of titles won. A title can be a fluke or a player suddenly pwning for a few weeks before getting back to his former level. Although Chojja won last MSL, I still think (let's say) IPXZerg and Oov are better, more consistent players, and definitely more likely to win the next one. Don't get me wrong, winning titles is what really matters for progamers. But it doesn't matter nearly as much when judging a whole team's potential. They beat GO by 4-2. When was the last time GO got beaten that badly by such a 2:1 margin? T1 beat them 4-1 in R1 playoff, and then 3-0 in R2 (and then 3-2)... Anyway, when GO sends players like Much and Oversky for such an important event, you can't really expect them to crush KTF (their manager prolly didn't sent Xellos because he was focusing on ODL, and IPXZerg in 1v1 cause he was focusing on 2v2s... but still). They shaved their heads. Remember what happened when KOR shaved their heads? They won a few matches and then got back to their sub-par level. (/me wants Zeus back for real though! :O) One word: Goodfriend. KTF annihilated competition even without Goodfriend's help. Now with his talent available, KTF has suddenly become even deadlier. Oov wasn’t there for R1 finals either, though. Their 2v2 team is superior. Reach & Yellow are back and Luna is back. Canata/Rumble got a far better record in R2. Though Reach/Yellow look indeed totally invincible on Luna, which wasn't used at all in R2. KTF's 1v1 team is better than SKT1's. Lets not think SKT1 > KTF in 1v1 just because a few people seem to think so. Taking a look at solid performance statistics will tell you otherwise. Check below: Rankings taken from: http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=36391 I'll take 5 of the best KTF players and compare them to 5 of the best SKT1 players. The results are as follows: Reach KTF 1263.9 pts ChoJJa KTF 1282.6 pts Nal_rA KTF 906.6 pts Yellow KTF 782.4 pts GoodFriend KTF 757.1 Total points = 4992.6 Iloveoov SKT1 1357.0 pts Slayers`BoxeR` SKT1 1049.8 pts Midas SKT1 924.5 pts Kingdom SKT1 689.8 pts GoRush SKT1 673.8 pts Total points = 4694.9 What does that say? That's right - KTF players outperformed SKT1 players over the last 12 months by a margin of about 300 points! KTF's top 3 players also outperforms SKT1's top 3 players. Totally irrelevant. What happened one year ago has nothing to do with any “current shape”. :x Oh and keep in mind that Kespa rankings don't even take into account stuff like BWWI, Blizzcon, etc...where KTF players owned even more. If Kespa took these events into account, I can't imagine how much more KTF would own up the chart. There’s a very good reason for it: this would make for a total bullshit ranking. WCG is enough. Those events prove absolutely nothing as already agreed by everyone in this thread but you. KTF players have achieved more than players of any other team. KTF players have outperformed players of any other team. They have won more tournaments than players of any other team. They have the best 1v1 and 2v2 lineup. They have out-accomplished everybody. The Kespa rankings prove it. SKT1 doesn't even have one single individual tournament victory since 2004. Yeah, they’re the best in the world, no one touches them, etc. Bleh. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
I believe KOR went undefeated for 4 consecutive series after shaving. The effect still has a while to last for KTF. I'm definitely surprised to hear you state that Canata/Rumble has a better 2v2 record than Yellow&Reach, but I remember when Canata/Rumble went up against Reach&Yellow last time, Reach&Yellow destroyed them. I think that's much more relevant as a comparison. Kespa collects statistics between a year ago up until now, not only just what happened a year ago. And even if you think that what happened a long time ago doesn't matter, then what happened recently prove it even more that KTF players are in the best overall shape as a team ever, because a year ago KTF players weren't really achieving anything. A year ago, Reach was the only player in good shape. I am not disagreeing to anyone that claims events such as BWWI don't mean much, and I do agree that they shouldn't be counted in Kespa. But I'm using them as examples to strengthen the point that KTF dominating the events shows that they are in really, really good shape. And I never said no one can touch KTF. I already stated I would not be surprised at all if SKT1 pulls out the victory over KTF. However, it is true according to Kespa that KTF players have outperformed players of every other team over the last year, and that their players have won more tournaments than every other team over the last year. | ||
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On February 17 2006 04:56 tfeign wrote: I'm definitely surprised to hear you state that Canata/Rumble has a better 2v2 record than Yellow&Reach, but I remember when Canata/Rumble went up against Reach&Yellow last time, Reach&Yellow destroyed them. I think that's much more relevant as a comparison. I don't have the exact numbers, but Yellow/Reach lost like 1/4 of their 2v2s while Canata/Rumble won all their games but the first one. In R2, that is (Yellow/Reach were 100% undefeated on Luna). And the game you're talking about is from R1 grand finals, on Luna as well. Basically we can safely say Yellow/Reach master Luna while Canata/Rumble master Usan Nation. Kespa collects statistics between a year ago up until now, not only just what happened a year ago. And even if you think that what happened a long time ago doesn't matter, then what happened recently prove it even more that KTF players are in the best overall shape as a team ever, because a year ago KTF players weren't really achieving anything. A year ago, Reach was the only player in good shape. I'm clearly not convinced, but also way too lazy to check all the Kespa rankings. Also, when you judge a team's potential, you need to take all their players into consideration, not just the few best. Strangely, you chose to consider the best 5 players, and there are precisely... 5 KTF players in the top-30 ranking. Sounds a tad biased, doesn't it? T1 has 8 players in it, and *all* of them regularly play in proleague and are qualified for an upcoming starleague. No signs of Mingu, Sync, Eji, Hery[Hyo] or anyone here. Fact is, T1 definitely has more flexibility when choosing their players, since they're basically all in shape. That's something not to neglect when it comes to proleague. In short, please count all the players' points if you're gonna judge the potential of a team. I am not disagreeing to anyone that claims events such as BWWI don't mean much, and I do agree that they shouldn't be counted in Kespa. But I'm using them as examples to strengthen the point that KTF dominating the events shows that they are in really, really good shape. So basically you're saying that 3 KTF members need to be all "in really good shape" so that *one* of them is able to win little tournies against a slumping-like-hell NaDa and 4 foreigners? | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
And honestly you only need about 2-3 real good players to make a dominant team. GO for example, has Xellos and IPXZerg, and that's all they needed to become an elite team. Khan has JJu and Stork and they dominated. P&C used to have Nada and Goodfriend, and they dominated. You can judge how dominant a team is going to be by just looking at its best 3 players. As of now, KTF's top 3 > SKT1's top 3. I counted 5 because I don't think you really have to look for more than 5 players to indicate the talent level of the team. Even 3 players is enough to tell the story. Furthermore, after Gorush, Mumuyng is the next in line. SKT1 doesn't even use Mumyung in Proleague (used to, but not anymore, and according to SKT1's interview he doesn't seem like he will play in the final either). So basically you're saying that 3 KTF members need to be all "in really good shape" so that *one* of them is able to win little tournies against a slumping-like-hell NaDa and 4 foreigners? I didn't say they're all in good shape because they won BWWI and Blizzcon. I said winning such events strengthen the claim that they're in good shape. Nada did come in as the #1 seed at BWWI, and he never managed to advance over KTF. Doesn't mean that they're in good shape because of it, but it definitely is another piece of evidence that supports the claim. | ||
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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PoP
France15446 Posts
On February 17 2006 07:39 tfeign wrote: I chose 5 because that's close to the number of players you need to play Proleague. If I was the manager, I'd put Yellow&Reach in the two 2v2s, Chojja, Nal_rA, and Goodfriend for three 1v1s. 5 players total. These 5 KTF players have performed better over the last year than SKT1's best 5 players. If I was biased I could have just taken the top 3 players. KTF's top 3 has more Kespa points combined than SKT1's top 3 by an even larger margin. For a bo5 maybe, but for a bo7 you need significantly more than 5 players. The more players you use, the more they can train on a specific map: their practice time is more efficiently used and the results potentially better. That's the main problem of let's say POS: July and Pusan basically play as most 1v1s and 2v2s as possible. They perform very decently, but they've always had a very hard time reaching the top-3. More good/in shape players = more consistency in general. Also it makes for a less predictable team, which can significantly complexify their opponents' practice. If you add the fact that the T1 manager likes to make brand-new 2v2 teams play in final events (2 out of 3 in both R1 and R2), that's a clear advantage to me. On the other hand, KTF has no real other choice but to send Yellow/Reach on Iron Curtain/Luna, for example. And honestly you only need about 2-3 real good players to make a dominant team. GO for example, has Xellos and IPXZerg, and that's all they needed to become an elite team. Khan has JJu and Stork and they dominated. P&C used to have Nada and Goodfriend, and they dominated. As I said above, all those teams (except GO, but they also have Foru and Iris who is the Proleague R2 MVP...) are highly lacking consistency. If their top players get into a slump or have a bad day, their team is 95% sure to lose. And if they have to practice for another event, pretty much same story. Also you seem to totally disregard the importance of 2v2s. Khan are not top-3 (only) because they have Stork and Jju, but mostly because their 2v2 teams (TT, sigimari...) have had a fucking awesome record all season long. 2v2 is also the main reason (with Nal_rA) why KTF went undefeated in R1 (before the grand finals). You can judge how dominant a team is going to be by just looking at its best 3 players. As of now, KTF's top 3 > SKT1's top 3. I counted 5 because I don't think you really have to look for more than 5 players to indicate the talent level of the team. Even 3 players is enough to tell the story. Well I've already explained why we were in total disagreement here. But let me take another example. KTF vs GO last week. Why did GO lose so easily? IMHO, because Xellos couldn't properly focus on PL due to ODL (that or because he's slumping) and because IPXZerg already had to practice for two 2v2s. Consequence: Much/Oversky playing 1v1s and getting pwned. See, two great players are definitely not enough. (Don't understand why Iris didn't play any 1v1 though, totally dumb. Maybe he was set for the ace game.) Btw, KTF also had to use Sync because Yellow/Reach had to practice for two 2v2s and Nal_rA for game 1. I don't think Sync sucks as much as some seem to think over here, but you know what I mean. Furthermore, after Gorush, Mumuyng is the next in line. SKT1 doesn't even use Mumyung in Proleague (used to, but not anymore, and according to SKT1's interview he doesn't seem like he will play in the final either). Huuh. You probably didn't follow R2. Oov and him played most of the team's 2v2s on Iron Curtain and were reasonably successful at it (2 wins out of 3 I'd say). What the interview said is that he never played in a finals, but who knows what the T1 manager will pull off this time. I didn't say they're all in good shape because they won BWWI and Blizzcon. I said winning such events strengthen the claim that they're in good shape. Nada did come in as the #1 seed at BWWI, and he never managed to advance over KTF. Doesn't mean that they're in good shape because of it, but it definitely is another piece of evidence that supports the claim. To me it's 99% irrelevant but oh well, it doesn't matter that much to the argument anyway. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
KTF's top 5 > SKT1's top 5 KTF's worst 3 < SKT1's worst 3 Imo KTF having 5 of their best players doing better than 5 of SKT1's best players is much more important than 3 of their worst players not as good as SKT1's 3 worsts. Furthermore, they really only need 5 good players anyway, regardless if bo5 or bo7, unless they want to be fancy like SKT1 (which I think is not necessary). If I was the KTF coach, I'll put in the following lineup: Game 1 = Chojja Game 2 = Reach & Yellow Game 3 = Nal_rA Game 4 = Reach & Yellow Game 5 = Goodfriend Game 6 = Chojja&Goodfriend Game 7 = Nal_rA for the ace game See, only 5 players used. I do think that Sync sucks though. I can't ever recall him beating a big name in Proleague. I've watched a game where he beat Saferzerg, and another one where he beat Oversky. Chojja really should take over Sync's place. I am still completely baffled as to why KTF continually refuses to put out Chojja for 1v1's. Is getting 3rd in MSL, winning the next MSL, and already qualifying for the next OSL not enough to prove that the guy is a 1v1 monster? Goodfriend was going to play in both a 2v2 and a 1v1 in the KTF vs GO series, there's no reason why Chojja can't. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
On February 16 2006 03:28 tfeign wrote: They made it to the grand final of the biggest league in Korea Hey So did SKT1 smart guy! They went undefeated last regular season Sure as hell didn't this season did they? Two of the most recent major prize money events were won by KTF members Blizzconn was all KTF cept Nada.. What kinda bias'd bs is that? 2nd and 4th went to SKT1 in so1. The most recent MStarleague winner was a KTF member and I can tell you KTF is underrepresented this OSL compared to T1. KTF member won WWI Oh.. right, 3 KTF members 1 Pantech.... If KTF didn't win, that means Nada > KTF allstar lineup -_-;; A bunch of underachievers alright. For a team with Reach, Yellow, Sync, Ra, Chojja, minus Chojja, yeah I'd say individually they are underachieving. Teamwise they are still good, but yes they are underachieving. What has an SKT1 member won anything recently? Nothing at all! Well, Boxer got 2nd Oov got 4th, MSL, Oov got 4th too. Then ya gots GoRush who was out for 2 leagues and Midas. Teams are even but I put my money on T1 cuz I have a hard time thinking KTF is consistant. Take out CHojja and KTF look like a buncha no-longer champion champions. I still love the players but they aren't on the hotstreak we are used to seeing by them... and get taht holy stick out your ass man, it's disgusting. Speculations... in the damn thread title. Instead, it becomes some factual BS analysis... guess what? No one knows for certain but if you think KTF is gonna win that handsdown, go ahead, I'll put money on T1 taking it easily. Oov imo is a guaranteed 1:1 win against the KTF lineup. I feel they put a toss in game 3, which I feel they will, Midas or Oov is a good option for the T1 team, and GoRush is a great opener for T1. Ra will be a good KTF opener but so would Reach -_-;; I dunno, they probably fear Oov imo -_-;; | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
KTF is not underachieving you ignorant fuck. | ||
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bsj9
United States927 Posts
Chojja really should take over Sync's place. I am still completely baffled as to why KTF continually refuses to put out Chojja for 1v1's. Is getting 3rd in MSL, winning the next MSL, and already qualifying for the next OSL not enough to prove that the guy is a 1v1 monster? Goodfriend was going to play in both a 2v2 and a 1v1 in the KTF vs GO series, there's no reason why Chojja can't. Chojja's ZvT isn't that great. it would be a good decision for KTF though if SKT1 ever send a non T. chojja has better chances in there statistically | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33723 Posts
Not so much underachieving as no longer being the handsdown best players. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
The fact still lies that over the past year (not counting Blizzcon and BWWI of course), top KTF players have outperformed top SKT1 players individually, out-won more starleagues, out-won more tournaments, out-accomplished more high place finishes, and outscores in the Kespa chart. This the basis of my argument. If you wish to debate with me, debate against this paragraph. The Blizzcon/BWWI is just a small icing on the cake finish. I've made it clear it's not the basis of my argument so why is it that every two posts I read, someone jumps on my ass about it as if KTF owning them up makes them any less dominating? It's like you people completely ignore everything I posted and focus in on one small thing to attack, which still clearly does not disprove the claim in any way. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
I'm not trying to disprove your claim at the moment about KTF vS SKT1 but the fact that you're using the two Blizzard showmatch events as support for your KTF arguement is ridiculous. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
The events didn't directly compare KTF to SKT1, it's one small supporting evidence out of the many that shows KTF has a dominating team of players. You can argue it's not a strong reason, but it certainly is something that strengthen my claim even if it's not by that much. | ||
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