Long story short, AvD vs AvD vs Avd vs Avd with the winners final being the winner out of BC etc etc. This way if the top 4 players are spread over 2 groups its impossible for more then 2 of them to make it to the finals, instead of having all 4 make it normally, and that is incredibly gay. The normal way is AvD vs BvsC vs AvD vs BvsC etc
Anyway -
Peter - Whats up with the GGL brackets? GGL-PuertoRican - dunno, what's with them Peter - well unless they are wrong Peter - i will be playing rekrul again in 2nd round Peter - then assem in third Peter - instead of it being broken up ? Peter - same with everyone else Peter - we are playing vs the same group of people GGL-PuertoRican - you wont play Dan twice, unless you guys meet up in the losers brackets towards the end Peter - http://www.ggl.com/playoffs.php?CompetitionId=95 Peter - will it be winner of pj/schniblor vs the winner of dash/assem Peter - for the top part GGL-PuertoRican - yep Peter - why on earth Peter - no tournament in the world does it like that GGL-PuertoRican - dont ask me, i didnt make the brackets Peter - well you are in authority GGL-PuertoRican - haha, thats true GGL-PuertoRican - but i didnt make the brackets Peter - you dont replace the ppl who have played in the groups instantly against each other GGL-PuertoRican - if i made them, all groups would be mixed, instead of A/D vs. B/C Peter - are you going to do something about it ? GGL-PuertoRican - that's the way it's gonna be though, i already brought it up GGL-PuertoRican - too late to change brackets Peter - GGL is a joke Peter - so trying to get an american through GGL-PuertoRican - people already started playing Peter - only first round though Peter - the only problem occurs in the 2nd round GGL-PuertoRican - yer dumb, and dont say it's a joke cuz the brackets arent the way you want them Peter - no its a joke because we are playing the same people GGL-PuertoRican - i can call your team a joke for not winning anything GGL-PuertoRican - but i dont GGL-PuertoRican - ;o Peter - our team is a joke Peter - i know it is Peter - i dont really care i'd rape assem and rekrul Peter - that matters nothing Peter - what matters is a fair tournament GGL-PuertoRican - it's the same way for the other games too Peter - the brackets like this where ITS IMPOSSIBLE to play anyone from half of the brackets until the final is totally wrong GGL-PuertoRican - not like we're trying to get USA ahead GGL-PuertoRican - im the one who made the groups, i put everyone who was close in time with each other, not like i had a big plan to get usa ahead in the end Peter - its NOT THE GROUPS that are the problem GGL-PuertoRican - i know Peter - its the bracket stage where its AvD all the way until the final Peter - should be A1vD4 first round, then 2nd round is the winner vs the winner of B2vC3 Peter - that is how every tournament is run GGL-PuertoRican - welp, that's the way they want it, same for wc3 groups, AoM groups, etc Peter - mind if i cut and paste this into a discussion topic GGL-PuertoRican - for what, nothin will change, or else i would have changed it Peter - the only thing stupidity needs to win is for smart ppl to do nothing GGL-PuertoRican - well, all yer gonna do is whine, it wont get changed. GGL-PuertoRican - not like yer the first time mention the brackets. Peter - well i asked you if you were going to do something, you said no Peter - i can't beleive they would even consider something so fundamentally flawed like this though GGL-PuertoRican - i already tryed GGL-PuertoRican - if i tryed already, no bother to try again, when i know it CANT happen GGL-PuertoRican - games have already started Peter - you can always change something bad if it hasn't moved past the bad part Peter - noone has played rnd 2 so that point is invalid GGL-PuertoRican - welp Peter Neate, go complain, i already told you what the outcome will be. Peter - got their email ?
********************************************** Email i just sent to GGL Hi i dont know if it is with all brackets but there seems to be a problem with the starcraft bracket.
Instead of following standard tournament structure where the winner of A1vD4 will play vs the winner of B2vC3 it shows that the bracket is instead A1vD4 v A3vD2. Thus the same people who played in the group stages have to replay verse each other.
Then even worse the next round is also vs the same groupings from earlier. (A1vD4 v A3vD2 VS A2vD3 v A4vD1.)
With this style of bracket and the lack of spreading the players out, it is impossible to play vs half of the brackets/groups/players until the very final, instead of playing vs everyone from every group.
I have talked to the leader of the starcraft ladder Puertorican, but he said he had already brought it up and wont change it because some matches have already started. But there is no problem that arises until the 2nd week matches so i dont understand how it can't be changed before that. Especially considering the massive flaw in the current bracket structure.
(say if the top 4 players were split up into 2 of the groups, it would make it impossible for more then 2 of them to make it into the finals, 1 through winners and 1 through the losers) But in all of the other tournament bracket structures all of the top 4 would make it through to the top 4 spots with the way the brackets are normally spread.
I hope you seriously rectify this problem before it advances too far.
Regards Peter. aka Legionnaire
******************************* **** GGL RESPONSE **** ******************************* Nothing is gonna change this season, sorry, we will probably change this for the next season tho.
EDIT PPL who dont like the brackets: Leg, Assem, Rekrul, Fisheye, Dashwriter
PPL who like the brackets: Pride Artosis said something about not having to play me or assem until very late so he likes it. Also said he thinks its because they wanted euro vs american finals in the lan thigns for other games which is an okay point, except sc has 2 euro teams.
Naz edit this with your opinion, i'll try and find out from others. Though seeing prides response i think i know how its going to be split.
Hm, you're right, that is a lousy setup. Don't know why they'd do it that way, it's just unfair. I hope for you guys that they change it, like you said, it's not too late yet.
Time zones. I think they tried to keep comfort of playing time and time zones in the utmost of their decision here. You're right, the 2 groups only play each other till the finals. But, Asia vs Germany is not that far away in terms of time zones. For something like FPS where ping is VERY important the difference in time zones and gamer distance is something that has to be considered. CS teams do not even play people on the same continent (for the most part) due to ping issues. By putting people with similar timezones and close (ish) locations against each other they are assuring that people will get good pings in FPS games. Now, I know this doesn't apply to SC and so does PR but it is too late to do anything about that now it would seem. I would much rather play a euro, whom I could easily play in the afternoon my time than a korean or a foreigner in korea, whom I may have to play at an awkward time (12 hours time difference or whatever is kind of awkward). With all this being said I got a bye and could only be hurt by a bracket changing around, especially considering both of my potential round 2 opponents are semi-retired. Anyways, that's just my take on why the brackets are like they are. Time zones, and ping, were taken into consideration. Too bad ping is a foreign term to most everyone in the community and not applicable at all really. The time zone thing, though, like in the group rounds was done with comfort of playing time in mind I imagine. That's just my take on it. The brackets have been the kindest to me though, easily, so I'm obviously not going to complain. If they were to change the brackets now I would demand a bye from first round since I have already started to prepare for my second round opponent. Anyways, with all that being said, good luck all.
closer than America - Asia, which is the big difference in time zones they probably wanted to avoid having to schedule. I use the word close relatively speaking. 6 // 8 hours difference vs 12 // 3 hours difference (not exact I know, but approx) provides a wider time margin where people will hopefully be able to play in. That's just my 2 cents though.
1 - Time zones, instead of stuffing up 1 group, they have all 4 play at different time zones. If you want the best time zones how about (euro vs germany a HUGE 1-2 hours diff?) then all thats left is Asia vs America, and with 2 progamers (who can play at anytime) and 1 bum who is going to be in the US during GGL anyway, + 1 other, yeah "time zones are a real factor" 2- Ping does not apply to SC 3- how on earth can any of this justify tilting the bracket AWAY from a fair tournament for sc?
As you said on msn you aren't going to complain because you have the easiest group possible.
Okay some ppl are going to take the next bit badly, but this is just my personal opinion, and i do not want ppl thinking this is the reason behind my complaining (the top part is) this is just more fuel for the fire. I wasn't even focusing on the players on each sides before, i was only on the stupid setup but with you talking a free bye on your side, taking out the strongest player on that side. This is going to be a walk in the park for the bottom half of the bracket. Comeon the american squad? I've beaten both artosis and keir with just my mouse (wasn't even a short game either) That leaves only Naz as a top player? and who knows how much he is playing.
And this is a perfect example of why these brackets suck so badly in a normal tournament mode it makes no difference because after the group stages everyone is split up and plays vs others so the newbies die off the better players advance. In this case it is impossible for this to happen.
Wow I didnt realize the set up was so stupid... Oh well maybe they can fix it for the next season if there is one. I guess you just have to deal with it because there is nothing they can do (unless he was just doing that to get you off his ass). By the way... do you have those reps of you winning with only mouse!?
On June 13 2005 12:45 Guybrush wrote: Isnt PuertoRican mod here or something ? I seem to remember seeing him with a blue name. Anyway why doesnt he post in this thread ?
That's pretty lame. I love following these tourneys because the reps are released reliably on the site, but from a spectators perspective, fairness to players aside, it's pretty boring to see the same matchups on presumably the same or similar maps back to back.
The whole time zone thing is dumb. People are spread out, let them make the game times to be mutually happy and let us see good matches.
Oh well, looks like there is a spread out authority in GGL so one person is afraid to make a change. Too bad, since the money made the players care a lot about this. I'm sure we'll still see GGs regardless.
Either way I'm happy they go through the trouble of hosting SC tournaments. However having things such as brackets correct is in my opinion very fundamental to succeed. It's also not very hard, and when there's people with more experience (Legionnaire) giving advice to help you improve he should be heard carefully.
1 question, why is group A vs. D a bad thing, besides that they are the better of the 4 groups.
if the answer is that all the good people have to play each other first, im still lost, because Leg has to play much better opponents in his league matches in korea, having to play people in his group, or even in this league should be easy, except assem/rekrul. He does well vs. the rest of them.
As for making the brackets, and everything that has to do with them, there are more than qualified people doing it, with much more experience in it than just being a gamer, im not sure why the brackets are the way they are, but that's how it will stay, i asked about it, but it is what it is, so just deal with it. This will just be something to work on for AmeriCup 2, later this year.
Imagine not having this event, would you rather this event end now and not get anything, or are you gonna suck it up, and play? too much is being blown out of proportion, and no one else has cryed about this so far except Leg, who shouldnt be saying anything at all, since he is 1 of the favorites.
Everyone keep responding to this though, this makes good drama for the event, and i love drama.
Wow, I really lost a lot of respect for puertorican. He has selflessly invested tons of time and effort into this event... but it's a shame that he loses respect for acting in this manner.
All competitions have one primary goal and that is to create the fairest method of determining a winner. That is why nearly every tournament has 1 seed vs 8 seed, etc type structure. commissioners/admins etc. should and usually do try to improve the structure so that it promotes the best teams/players facing each other. The NHL recently changed their format so that seeding is redone after each round. This is one example of an organization acknowledging a superior method that will improve the quality of the tournament.
My major dissapointment with puertorican is not that he came to the conclusion that the current bracket method is the best (which I don't think it is). It is that he refused to even consider the merits of it in an open mided fashion and shot it down immediately. "this is the way it is cuz I said so!" type attitude is the scourge of development. I think it's safe to say that a good number of both the fans and the players have been alienated by this incident.
All successful organizations and leaders are open minded and take the input of those around them. Jack Welch, and Sam Walton have built two of the greatest companies on earth by listening to the feedback of the lowest level of employees. A common denominator amongst failed organizations is a closed minded leader that will always go by how he feels and never incorporates the advice of those around him.
I think GGL and tourneys like it is a great thing for this community and I'd hate to see it fail. I urge you PR, please keep an open mind... we're all striving for the same goal... an improved international SC gaming community.
tenbagger I think you missunderstood the whole thing I understand puerto rican
From what I could understand, he couldn't change anything, because the brackets of all games were meant to be this way, so It was not him who choose it. He also said it could not be changed, and we all know it is hard to change things when the whole tournament has started like two months ago, in the middle of the tourney. These things (changing the rules) aren't suppose to happen in a well organized way.
If they see that this system brought them some trouble, then I think they might consider think about another one that fits better to the reality of our game. I dont think so too the way it is now is the best way, but its the way it was supposed to be since the beginning, so its not like they are going to change it now.
I also understand PuertoRican when he kinda of "lost his head" and answer in a bad mood , I'm sure its probably he put so much effort for this to happen that you have no idea, and even though he had to listen Leg saying that "GGL is a joke". Of course he would be anger about it, wouldn't you? Imagine yourself in this situation. You HAVE to remember most of them that they are supposed to play on X day, numerous times, because some SC players are lazy and you have to remember them that they must play, otherwise LOTS of w.o's will happen, resulting in a no "next version" of GGL for Starcraft.
And besides that, he had to update results, replays and other stuff that he probably had to do, that I have no knowledge about. I dont know if you have an idea of the pain in that ass that is to remember someone he has to play. And how frustrating can be if you remembered the guy plenty of times, he said he would play, and then he doesnt play.
Thats why I say I understand him when he was in bad mood in the chat with Leg and in the post above us. Of course the way he reacted was not the best (like saying that leg's team was a joke), but noone here is a Dalai Lama to be "cold" all the time.
and we can also mention, taking every tuesday off from work and not making money for that day, running this league and not getting paid, done by love of the game, among lots of other annoying things i had to do, but i dont care, cuz it's all in fun, not like you get a chance to play for $4,000 everyday.
and yes, Raidern is correct.
that's a YES, to answer the person below me. i will do the brackets myself next time
On June 13 2005 12:40 iNCuBuS_ wrote: What does the response say? Are they going to change it or leave it?
I updated the front post. It is staying the same this season, but will change next season.
Puertorican - you are still taking it the wrong way, maybe an example will help. With Pgtour and ISL, i complained about a lot of things about the way the tournament was running. Some of it was to my advantage some of it wasn't, i'm sure they got a little annoyed with me too ^^ It wasn't to rig it in anyway, it was because Pgtour and ISL had the possibility of being the best event outside of korea for all foreigners, it was already the best server and playing ground for gamers. And from somethign so good i expected nothign but perfection. Thus where there was a flaw i talked to pat alot about the pros/cons and ways to make it better. (one time was blatantly in my favour as well, but it wasn't for the advantage that it would give me because in the end it didn't really matter did it?)
GGL is the same, it is the BIGGEST prize money for foreigners outside of WCG. Thus a fair and equal tourney should be presented. It would make no real difference if only the first prize was paid, but there are prizes for the top 4? players. This bracket is totally biased, instead of allowing a fair distribution of skill, with the best players all making it as far as their skill/luck on the day allows.
This is just simply not the case, the fact GGL have said they will probably change it for next season shows they know its a complete waste of space. (maybe a bit harsh, i still dont know their mentality for having it this way) so lets say, as they know there is a better system that will be fairer for players.
On June 13 2005 20:03 PuertoRican wrote: 1 question, why is group A vs. D a bad thing, besides that they are the better of the 4 groups.
if the answer is that all the good people have to play each other first, im still lost, because Leg has to play much better opponents in his league matches in korea, having to play people in his group, or even in this league should be easy, except assem/rekrul. He does well vs. the rest of them.
AvsD is not a bad thing as long as the bracket section follows standard format.
Okay hypothetically lets say i win. Lets also say 7/8 of the top players are in A/D group. Since i win, that means i knock out all the people from A/D and rape the newbie from the bottom side of the bracket (sorry naz/whoever!) Now with the prizes as they are, for the best it doesn't matter (me yay!), but for 2nd/ 3rd/ 4th it makes an enourmous difference, because only 3/8 (2 from the top side, 1 from the bottom (i think thats right)) would make it for the prizes, instead where if the matches are all spread out like the standard format, all 8 of the top players would all have a chance to win the prize money. The standard format eliminates a lot of the luck and helps the better players make it further. Tournaments should always strive to have the best make it as far as they can instead of having it as it is now.
As for making the brackets, and everything that has to do with them, there are more than qualified people doing it, with much more experience in it than just being a gamer, im not sure why the brackets are the way they are, but that's how it will stay, i asked about it, but it is what it is, so just deal with it. This will just be something to work on for AmeriCup 2, later this year.
Well if they are planning to change it, doesn't sound like they think its the best format does it. And being a gamer i am sure i have had so much more experience then they have on how fair tournament is run.
[/quote]Imagine not having this event, would you rather this event end now and not get anything, or are you gonna suck it up, and play? too much is being blown out of proportion, and no one else has cryed about this so far except Leg, who shouldnt be saying anything at all, since he is 1 of the favorites.
Everyone keep responding to this though, this makes good drama for the event, and i love drama.
p.s. result is, it's staying the same.[/QUOTE] Well there is no question about that. Rekrul did in the news post, assem did but he doesn't post here, fisheye said it sucked. So who cares if i am the favourite, anything that isn't fair for all players isn't a tournament i want to boast about winning. (Doubt i will though!~ Too many anti toss maps vs zerg T_T) Which you might add i've never complained about now have i? i just sucked it up and ready to play.
Assem just said i'm not getting my points across very well its annoying knowing whats wrong and presuming others do when i'm half explaining it or whatever i've done. Anyway can't do much more.
its just a conference style bracketing, the NBA and MLB uses it.. the root of the problem lies in the groupings, there are jsut too many powerhouses on one side.
anyone ever wondered why the first seed in the osl always picks the best player available? because that way he makes sure he'll never vs him again before the final...
I don t read all posts, so maybe it was said before, but the problem is in the LB too. Till the final it is like Group A and D and Group B and C playing each other. In my opinion it is just unfair.
On June 13 2005 12:40 iNCuBuS_ wrote: What does the response say? Are they going to change it or leave it?
I updated the front post. It is staying the same this season, but will change next season.
And that explains why I didnt see it Ok... Id still like to know from PuertoRican or someone if they are going to keep this same system for a possible second 'season' or if they are going to try a different, possibly better, set up?
Yes GGL is fuckin joke and that puertorician is just corrupted guy who wants american to win ( rekruL).In the middle of the season i asked what would happen if i will have same points with peter,i thought i would advance to next stage because i won peter,but he said that we would have to play each other once more.i was ok with that.then season ended and i had same points with rekrul not peter , so he said rekrul advances because he won you................ corruption and arrogant shithead.i was put in bracket with 4 progamers and other top gamers even i was from europe not asia? LOL ? :D this puertorico guy is pot head
I don't mean to add fuel to the fire, but here goes:
I found out a few days ago that I have the same amount of points as DaZe, and he showed as 4th in the group, me fifth (what I found astonishing anyway because I only had 1 loss and 1 forfeit loss, with 5 wins). I won against DaZe though, so it should've been me advancing instead of DaZe.
A mistake by Puerto, which I can understand, it's easy to look over that, but still, pretty amateurish. The thing I don't understand, is why I can't replace ret, because 'he quit BW', and just play Pride. Now Pride gets a bye into next round, while I could play him.
I still kind of expect Puerto to grant me that, since he fucked up first with making DaZe advance, and not me. I talked to him on MSN about it, but he said it wasn't possible. I really don't see why.
EPT
