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On May 07 2011 16:17 RJGooner wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:13 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:10 RJGooner wrote:
ggaemo.. how the fuck do you throw away this big of a lead man. jeez. Can you explain what big lead that he had? I'm pretty sure the 14CC that Flash did gives him a bigger lead in the beginning so those few scv that the muta kills didn't do that much. 3base vs 2 base terran isn't any lead at all and all his lurker did for him was killing 2 depot. He was at 4 base at the end there and droned hard while he had his lurker contain up. He also killed more than "a few" SCV's with his muta harass. His downfall was making mass muta.
"at the end", that's not a lead when you lose at the end. His lurker contain didn't do jack as Flash was on 2 base macroing nicely and break the "contain" when he just moves out. His muta didn't do much damage to even up with the BO disadvantage. The muta came in so late as he had to go the lurker tech, by then Flash's eco is great already so those "scvs" that was killed didn't do that much of damages as Flash was still nicely reinforcing his troop as he pushes.
I'm not taking anything away from ggaemo but he had a bad BO disadvantage and he didn't have any big lead at all as you claim.
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Yeah, ggaemo certainly did not have a lead. He killed maybe seven scvs, and overextended himself and died to a 2-base timing attack. It was a fairly straigh-forward game if you ask me.
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On May 07 2011 16:21 Murderotica wrote:
Don't forget dra upgrades.
edit: that ggaemo needed them to have any use for his dras
Yeah basically this.
Unupgraded, Lurkers suck against Goliaths. And Hydras suck in general.
and again, Siege Tanks would've wrecked any combination of Hydra, Lurker or Zergling. Against +1 attack, you NEED hivetech to stand a chance on the ground.
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I dunno, I thought the contain break was done really poorly and quite a few mnm were picked off. The unit counter they showed briefly during the push actually had ggaemo up 10 supplies.
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On May 07 2011 16:21 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:19 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Mutaling isn't necessarily a terrible composition against that army if the mutas are +1 upgraded and if ggaemo actually used the mobility of the mutas effectively to cut off reinforcements. There was a period where Flash's army was just sitting in the middle of the map and ggaemo didn't bother doing anything useful with his mutas. Well anytime GGaemo tried to get a sniff off the idle army, the hailstorm of charon boosted missiles ate at his mutas before they could do much.
I didn't mean that he should've engaged the army, but he could've used his mutas to cut off reinforcements.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
On May 07 2011 16:22 hauton wrote:
Honestly, best recourse at that point would've been turtle zerg with tight sunken simcity and a transition to hivetech, heavy on the cracklings
Even 1 siege tank would ruin that plan IMO. The strong anti-air would prevent mutalisks from sniping the tank without heavy losses and it's not like mnm can't handle sunkens if the tank does indeed get sniped. It would have taken far longer for hive + defiler mound + defiler + consume and would also take a lot of gas which means no re-massing of muta to snipe any tanks (which Flash would be making instead of goliath at that point). Even if ggaemo were to hold that by suiciding muta to snipe tanks and massing sunks, he would be so low on money that he would never have enough to stop the attack with just lings and swarm considering Flash's eco would have been untouched for a few minutes at least. He could just make more firebats. I think ggaemo's build was weak in general for these reasons, but unfortunately it was the best chance he had. Shouldn't have lost that ZvZ.
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On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game.
This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition.
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On May 07 2011 16:26 Murderotica wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:22 hauton wrote:
Honestly, best recourse at that point would've been turtle zerg with tight sunken simcity and a transition to hivetech, heavy on the cracklings Even 1 siege tank would ruin that plan IMO. The strong anti-air would prevent mutalisks from sniping the tank without heavy losses and it's not like mnm can't handle sunkens if the tank does indeed get sniped. It would have taken far longer for hive + defiler mound + defiler + consume and would also take a lot of gas which means no re-massing of muta to snipe any tanks (which Flash would be making instead of goliath at that point). Even if ggaemo were to hold that by suiciding muta to snipe tanks and massing sunks, he would be so low on money that he would never have enough to stop the attack with just lings and swarm considering Flash's eco would have been untouched for a few minutes at least. He could just make more firebats. I think ggaemo's build was weak in general for these reasons, but unfortunately it was the best chance he had. Shouldn't have lost that ZvZ.
Agree - it would've taken some dandy muta micro, but better that than going hydralurk, which is basically rolling over and dying.
Moral of the story: if you tech switch against 14CC, the tech switch better pay off
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On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition.
Oh you foolish, foolish fool. You're falling into the Lightwip trap.
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On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition.
In Lightwip's mind, Bisu could suddenly have appeared out of nowhere and recalled in some zealots.
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On May 07 2011 16:28 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition. Oh you foolish, foolish fool. You're falling into the Lightwip trap.
lol I'm happy with my FPL so I don't care if I get trolled right now 
On May 07 2011 16:28 hauton wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:26 Murderotica wrote:On May 07 2011 16:22 hauton wrote:
Honestly, best recourse at that point would've been turtle zerg with tight sunken simcity and a transition to hivetech, heavy on the cracklings Even 1 siege tank would ruin that plan IMO. The strong anti-air would prevent mutalisks from sniping the tank without heavy losses and it's not like mnm can't handle sunkens if the tank does indeed get sniped. It would have taken far longer for hive + defiler mound + defiler + consume and would also take a lot of gas which means no re-massing of muta to snipe any tanks (which Flash would be making instead of goliath at that point). Even if ggaemo were to hold that by suiciding muta to snipe tanks and massing sunks, he would be so low on money that he would never have enough to stop the attack with just lings and swarm considering Flash's eco would have been untouched for a few minutes at least. He could just make more firebats. I think ggaemo's build was weak in general for these reasons, but unfortunately it was the best chance he had. Shouldn't have lost that ZvZ. Agree - it would've taken some dandy muta micro, but better that than going hydralurk, which is basically rolling over and dying. Moral of the story: if you tech switch against 14CC, the tech switch better pay off
Or don't let a Terran successfully 14CC on a 2p map without doing any damage in the early stages...
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On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition.
I'm sure you have no bias either.
Nevertheless, would it really be such a good idea to keep making mutas against goliaths? It's not.
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On May 07 2011 16:26 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:21 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On May 07 2011 16:19 DarkMatter_ wrote:
Mutaling isn't necessarily a terrible composition against that army if the mutas are +1 upgraded and if ggaemo actually used the mobility of the mutas effectively to cut off reinforcements. There was a period where Flash's army was just sitting in the middle of the map and ggaemo didn't bother doing anything useful with his mutas. Well anytime GGaemo tried to get a sniff off the idle army, the hailstorm of charon boosted missiles ate at his mutas before they could do much. I didn't mean that he should've engaged the army, but he could've used his mutas to cut off reinforcements.
He would still take some damage and we saw he couldn't even handle the initial terran ball, ggaemo didn't have the macro to intercept AND defend...
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On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition.
Well, often Protoss players understand TvZ worse than Terran/Zerg players understand their non-matchup. And much more than just often Lightwip understands SC worse than everybody else. So when you put that together what do you expect?
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On May 07 2011 16:30 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition. I'm sure you have no bias either. Nevertheless, would it really be such a good idea to keep making mutas against goliaths? It's not.
Upgraded mass muta is actually quite good vs Goliaths.
Add MnM to that and they suck though.
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On May 07 2011 16:31 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition. Well, often Protoss players understand TvZ worse than Terran/Zerg players understand their non-matchup. And much more than just often Lightwip understands SC worse than everybody else. So when you put that together what do you expect?
"Bisu is so dreamy, I want to marry his hair"?
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On May 07 2011 16:30 Tenhou wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:28 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition. Oh you foolish, foolish fool. You're falling into the Lightwip trap. lol I'm happy with my FPL so I don't care if I get trolled right now Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:28 hauton wrote:On May 07 2011 16:26 Murderotica wrote:On May 07 2011 16:22 hauton wrote:
Honestly, best recourse at that point would've been turtle zerg with tight sunken simcity and a transition to hivetech, heavy on the cracklings Even 1 siege tank would ruin that plan IMO. The strong anti-air would prevent mutalisks from sniping the tank without heavy losses and it's not like mnm can't handle sunkens if the tank does indeed get sniped. It would have taken far longer for hive + defiler mound + defiler + consume and would also take a lot of gas which means no re-massing of muta to snipe any tanks (which Flash would be making instead of goliath at that point). Even if ggaemo were to hold that by suiciding muta to snipe tanks and massing sunks, he would be so low on money that he would never have enough to stop the attack with just lings and swarm considering Flash's eco would have been untouched for a few minutes at least. He could just make more firebats. I think ggaemo's build was weak in general for these reasons, but unfortunately it was the best chance he had. Shouldn't have lost that ZvZ. Agree - it would've taken some dandy muta micro, but better that than going hydralurk, which is basically rolling over and dying. Moral of the story: if you tech switch against 14CC, the tech switch better pay off Or don't let a Terran successfully 14CC on a 2p map without doing any damage in the early stages...
But Flash had everything he needed... 14cc AND a ling-tight wall.
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On May 07 2011 16:31 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition. Well, often Protoss players understand TvZ worse than Terran/Zerg players understand their non-matchup. And much more than just often Lightwip understands SC worse than everybody else. So when you put that together what do you expect?
A big troll?
lol he doesn't think mass muta is good against goliath so I don't see a point to answer him.
On May 07 2011 16:33 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:30 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:28 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition. Oh you foolish, foolish fool. You're falling into the Lightwip trap. lol I'm happy with my FPL so I don't care if I get trolled right now On May 07 2011 16:28 hauton wrote:On May 07 2011 16:26 Murderotica wrote:On May 07 2011 16:22 hauton wrote:
Honestly, best recourse at that point would've been turtle zerg with tight sunken simcity and a transition to hivetech, heavy on the cracklings Even 1 siege tank would ruin that plan IMO. The strong anti-air would prevent mutalisks from sniping the tank without heavy losses and it's not like mnm can't handle sunkens if the tank does indeed get sniped. It would have taken far longer for hive + defiler mound + defiler + consume and would also take a lot of gas which means no re-massing of muta to snipe any tanks (which Flash would be making instead of goliath at that point). Even if ggaemo were to hold that by suiciding muta to snipe tanks and massing sunks, he would be so low on money that he would never have enough to stop the attack with just lings and swarm considering Flash's eco would have been untouched for a few minutes at least. He could just make more firebats. I think ggaemo's build was weak in general for these reasons, but unfortunately it was the best chance he had. Shouldn't have lost that ZvZ. Agree - it would've taken some dandy muta micro, but better that than going hydralurk, which is basically rolling over and dying. Moral of the story: if you tech switch against 14CC, the tech switch better pay off Or don't let a Terran successfully 14CC on a 2p map without doing any damage in the early stages... But Flash had everything he needed... 14cc AND a ling-tight wall.
Which is a big BO disadvantage, maybe ggaemo should have waited 2-3 more seconds before making a pool and extractor to 3 hatch before pool as his overlord would come to see the 14cc in 2-3 more seconds.
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On May 07 2011 16:30 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2011 16:26 Tenhou wrote:On May 07 2011 16:17 Lightwip wrote:On May 07 2011 16:16 Holgerius wrote:
What's up with all the talk about how ggaemo should've won this easily? This is Flash we're talking about. O_o I wouldn't say that Flash looked too great today. A zerg with decent ZvT, like Soulkey, Jaedong, Zero and the like would've probably taken him out in this game. This is your biased opinion as you also think ggaemo could have pulled out 20 hydra and win without expecting Flash to change his troop composition. I'm sure you have no bias either. Nevertheless, would it really be such a good idea to keep making mutas against goliaths? It's not.
There's no Protoss equivalent because you can basically make the same core units in all matchups as P so I guess you wouldn't understand (also you are Lightwip which makes it even less likely) but for some reason I'll try to explain anyway. You don't just suddenly switch to Hydras with no upgrades against anything with upgrades ... it would get wrecked like no other. Also ggaemo actually didn't have great mineral income that game in spite of being on 4 base for awhile. Going Hydra off 4 Hatcheries on 4 gas is not going to cut it.
Edit: I want to clarify I'm not trying to piss on Protoss players in general. It's just that Lightwip is like the exact caricature of the Protoss player who is just awful at understanding the game - you can't really get away with that with the other races because you practically can't win games without picking up some of the subtleties as T and Z at high D / low D+ (unless you cheese like crazy).
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^ well explained by TL's most reasonable CJ fan
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EPT
