[SWL] Playoffs Day 2: SK Telecom T1 vs Hwaseung Oz - Page…

On April 04 2011 02:18 infinity2k9 wrote:


I think this basically confirms something a lot of us already thought about Bisu vs Jaedong, that a small mistake rolls into an avoidable loss hence the games are usually disappointing somewhat. This one was pretty good but it certainly happens a lot.

P players in general seem to be far better at dealing with scourge now than ever before too which has got to help. I mentioned it before and it doesn't help early game but seriously what's wrong with using Queens more? Ensnaring a Sair ball makes it totally useless. And ensnare in general on a P army makes it get raped attempting to retreat from cracklings or other flanks. I think at least having a couple around lategame would do no harm, expensive broodling not even needed. Parasite Archons for constant vision of army, and ensnare shuttles/sairs/armies (particularly dragoons which would make them 100% useless vs cracklings). Not to mention parasiting Shuttles which makes them virtually useless for harassment, especially as the Queen comes with the spell by default. Queens almost seem like a total counter to sair/reaver when you think about it.

Note that i don't think it would have helped here pretty much at all as i think the ensnare timing would be too late to do anything, but imagine the awesome play of ensnaring like 8 sairs at once then scourge cloning them all. You see pro's waste fleets of like 20 scourge at once these days, imagine if it was along with a queen... then it would be a real threat. It's only 75 energy points too, and with it's good range i don't see a reason to even not use it. Even defensively hovering over your natural choke points and ensaring attacking forces would greatly reduce the damage of the attacks being done as well as slowing speedlots into normal lots.

Even vs T i think it could be used more although i know progamers complained it's already too much multitasking, but in recent games i've seen so many CC's taken down to yellow health begging just to be instantly stolen. Wasting 400 minerals, build time and gives you a building you can float off and use to your advantage. Z's have an easy way to take down half-health expos without even researching anything with a single 100/100 unit! Cracklings bring down a CC to yellow health before there there can be a reaction usually, imagine just a single group of 11 lings and 1 queen stealing a CC withing like 5 seconds. Even muta focus fire like Jaedong showed could bring it down enough to easily steal before repair, but he seemed to do it as a mindgame more than a real strategy. Not to mention outside of this use, you can parasite vessels to keep tracking of the cloud, and ensnaring bio forces turns stimmed rines into normal rines. Isn't this enough variety of uses to justify keeping a few around as support? Map control and mobility is such an important part of pro SC and here you have a unit which can significantly effect those things, yet it's mostly ignored.

Let's just imagine getting queens nest up at the fairly usual time vs bio TvZ then like 3 queens + ensnare. You would lose money that you can use for a few lurker/lings/mutas, but at the same time any time they attacked you could heavily nullify their forces with a couple of ensnares. Vs Mech well we've all seen the use of them there vs Tanks. Ensnare vs a vulture heavy user like SSak or Fantasy prehaps wouldn't be too bad though (unfortunately for tanks/goliaths it doesn't slow the attack speed down at all). Against 2port wraith provided you can get it out in time, ensnare is like a hard counter, although they would be switching to MnM or pure mech most likely by that time. If you really want to get fancy how about even ensnaring a group of stacked workers trying to run away.

I know i'm basically theorycrafting (although i will try it myself) but it seems totally reasonable/feasible doesn't it? I know people like to say 'too much cost invested' and whatever but we're not talking ZvZ where you're on a razors edge and spending anything incorrectly means you lose. Maybe i should write a thread on this matter and play some games, although i think no one will take me seriously cause if my low level play. I think i've watched enough BW to make some fair judgment calls though.

On April 04 2011 11:45 Wardensc2 wrote:
Excuse me for asking some odd question. I like the Korean rock song play in our vod Bisu vs Jaedong, Does anyone know about this song's name ? I want to listen to it again ^^

On April 04 2011 18:36 Wardensc2 wrote:


Any help, some one T_T

On April 04 2011 17:42 infinity2k9 wrote:
Thanks for the explanations ArvickHero. I see the problem is definitely really the timing of getting ensnare out and unseen in time to make any use of them vs P, especially as it's probably too late to stop any sair ball. For the 2port i was thinking of a specific game, Jaedong Vs Leta on Outsider but that's with Leta who particularly continues for ages with wraiths so yeah i can see it being a bit useless elsewhere. I think CC stealing may be valid then but i guess that's about it. Broodling in PvZ even though it was used effectively by ZerO looked even more volatile and unreliable than some of the things i suggested imo, trying to actually pull it off effectively against every HT. I wish ensnare would last a bit longer so you could actually pre-ensnare before battle rather than at the same time.

I'm gonna try it out a bit when i play Z anyway at least. Against lower levels the CC sniping should be more effective with people's reduced reaction times.

On April 06 2011 03:28 SkysLa wrote:


This is probably not totally true. But I remember quite a few months ago there was an interview where they talked about using Queens vs Mech and just queens in general. I forgot who said it but the multitask needed was insane and basically the person stated the only one who he saw do it well was Jaedong cause he could multitask so insanely. Now that I think of it it was probably some zerg from OZ and therefore probably Killer. But ya, it was basically stated the only one seen use it well in practice was Jaedong.

On April 06 2011 12:28 moopie wrote:

Zero is definitely the king of queens (no offense to Kevin James)

calm still working on taming his queens.

On April 07 2011 05:53 kuroshiroi wrote:

The issue was using queens and defilers at the same time, apparently Jaedong was the only one crazy enough to attempt that and even he said it was too hard.

I think it was something like brood linging, dark swarming and flanking, all at the same time.