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On February 15 2011 21:32 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 20:01 Invictus wrote:On February 15 2011 19:57 Ryo wrote:On February 15 2011 19:55 POWEROUTAGE wrote:On February 15 2011 19:51 Djagulingu wrote:On February 15 2011 19:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 15 2011 19:33 Djagulingu wrote:On February 15 2011 19:32 ]343[ wrote:On February 15 2011 19:31 Djagulingu wrote:On February 15 2011 19:30 TwoToneTerran wrote:
[quote]
How can you even possibly say this with a straight face. By watching Flash's bunker rush revolutionary TvP strategy. that is boring how? are you just going to let protoss get away with 12nex LOL Of course not. But, at the same manner, Stork wouldn't let flash get away with blind 1 rax cc in every single TvP. Right? Um, no one who responded to you said what Stork did was boring or wrong. I just think you're very, very ignorant to call Flash the most boring player in the scene. He's easily been the most revolutionary player since Savior, not to mention the most aggressive player who still plays long macro games. He does everything you can imagine, I don't think you can call him boring unless you think every aspect of terran as a race is boring. Oh cool, someone to argue with who is not a disgruntled blind fanboy and yet has valid opinions despite being a fanboy. Hats off to you sir. Yes, I watched quite a good number of Flash games since I started watching PL. And I got a good idea on what was PL like before Flash. Before Flash: 12nexusopzomgnerfqqwhine After Flash: Hahahaha another blind 12 nexus getting stomped. Thanks Flash. Flash is not that aggressive. Yet, like Ver says in his guide, as the game gets longer and longer, Flash gains more and more power. He generally plays for a single big time push. BUT, if he needs to be aggressive for his ultimate strategy, he is aggressive. He CAN be aggressive with his aggression not being pointless. But, he can also be completely defensive. 2 games to back my opinion up: Flash vs Neo.G_Soulkey, SPL 2010-2011 R1 Flash vs HyuK, SPL 2009-2010 finals Flash is NOT the most revolutionary player since Savior, there is Bisu. But he's in the 2nd place if not 1st. After saying all this: I find Flash's style boring. Like I said, I don't think I'm all alone with that. Let's not even start on bisu, he revolutionised a matchup; flash revolutionised all match-ups. How did Flash revolutionize TvT and TvZ? Honest question, not being sarcastic. Right. He just played with perfect MnM control, and has star sense. Thats it. He didn't create the valkonic build, he didnt create the 2 port wraith build. He just showed us insane control New builds does not equal revolutionizing a matchup. He's very innovative yes but revolutionizing TvZ and TvT is another thing altogether.
Flash isn't revolutionary because nobody else can do what he does at his level.
Flash has amazing mechanics, yes, but tons of players have excellent mechanics. IMO, what makes him stand out is his complete understanding of the game. He makes great decisions, and he makes them easily. When other players doubt, Flash is decisive. He reads opponents, matchups, build orders, scenarios and clashes so readily that he almost always holds the edge.
I mean, it's one thing to invent something like mutastacking, that everyone can spend a bit of time learning and adopt. That's revolutionary, as it changes the entire Z play style. It's quite another to innately play Brood War well, regardless of external factors. That's not something you pick up, that's basically years of experience, tons of practice, and quite a bit of talent.
The other thing I'd probably raise is the relative age of BW. "Revolutions" have largely become history, as professional play has leveled out. You're hitting an upper bound on mechanics, a decline in new talent, and general exhaustion in the understanding the game on a in-depth level. These all contribute to the relative stability of professional BW since ~late 08/early 09, IMHO.
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Very spot on post.
As an aside, I'm kind of worried for KT once the leagues return to the standard format...
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Russian Federation327 Posts
Flash was cheesed, not big deal. 2-players map = you can easily gas steal and force rax FE.
4 proxy gate own rax FE a lot. Nice try from Stork, though I prefer straight game to happen.
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I am satisfied with the results. Flash is overall solid, and when he is sent 4th or 5th he always pulls through. When he is sent earlier and loses (happened twice I think) his teammates pulled through.
Yeahhh Srats!
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SO HAPPY with the results!! Flash and Stats FIGHTING!! We got a Flash vs Stork too ^^
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United States7481 Posts
On February 15 2011 21:28 Musou wrote:
Hopefully whoever updates TLPD does it in the right order again, as Flash did set a new Elo peak vP today. Twice even.
done =D
new vP Elo peak is 2333!
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On February 15 2011 22:07 Yodo wrote:
Flash was cheesed, not big deal. 2-players map = you can easily gas steal and force rax FE.
4 proxy gate own rax FE a lot. Nice try from Stork, though I prefer straight game to happen.
Sounds like Nony vs Idra final game in TSL2
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On February 15 2011 19:38 yoodeok wrote:
Goddamn Fantasy is nothing compared to Stork unless:
a) it is a best-of-x series that he has weeks and weeks to prepare for
b) he leaves his booth so that his coaches can tell him exactly what to do inbetween matchups
c) Stork is going through the aftermath of a breakup with a longterm girlfriend
Unfortunately none of these points justify double 3:0 against my favorites. Hahahaha
+ Show Spoiler + Sorry regular Stork fans, but the point c trolled me to the limit, I had to respond 
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Hahaha good to see Stats bailing out Flash. I think the secret to getting more wins out of KT players is to have Flash lose early and then have Action/Stats/etc bail him out hahahaha.
I'd like to see Flash getting sent out last still though. Give more games to players like Reach/Perfective/etc and then send him out on cleanup crew.
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where is the recommended game poll?
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On February 15 2011 21:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2011 21:32 Ryo wrote:On February 15 2011 20:01 Invictus wrote:On February 15 2011 19:57 Ryo wrote:On February 15 2011 19:55 POWEROUTAGE wrote:On February 15 2011 19:51 Djagulingu wrote:On February 15 2011 19:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On February 15 2011 19:33 Djagulingu wrote:On February 15 2011 19:32 ]343[ wrote:On February 15 2011 19:31 Djagulingu wrote:
[quote]
By watching Flash's bunker rush revolutionary TvP strategy. that is boring how? are you just going to let protoss get away with 12nex LOL Of course not. But, at the same manner, Stork wouldn't let flash get away with blind 1 rax cc in every single TvP. Right? Um, no one who responded to you said what Stork did was boring or wrong. I just think you're very, very ignorant to call Flash the most boring player in the scene. He's easily been the most revolutionary player since Savior, not to mention the most aggressive player who still plays long macro games. He does everything you can imagine, I don't think you can call him boring unless you think every aspect of terran as a race is boring. Oh cool, someone to argue with who is not a disgruntled blind fanboy and yet has valid opinions despite being a fanboy. Hats off to you sir. Yes, I watched quite a good number of Flash games since I started watching PL. And I got a good idea on what was PL like before Flash. Before Flash: 12nexusopzomgnerfqqwhine After Flash: Hahahaha another blind 12 nexus getting stomped. Thanks Flash. Flash is not that aggressive. Yet, like Ver says in his guide, as the game gets longer and longer, Flash gains more and more power. He generally plays for a single big time push. BUT, if he needs to be aggressive for his ultimate strategy, he is aggressive. He CAN be aggressive with his aggression not being pointless. But, he can also be completely defensive. 2 games to back my opinion up: Flash vs Neo.G_Soulkey, SPL 2010-2011 R1 Flash vs HyuK, SPL 2009-2010 finals Flash is NOT the most revolutionary player since Savior, there is Bisu. But he's in the 2nd place if not 1st. After saying all this: I find Flash's style boring. Like I said, I don't think I'm all alone with that. Let's not even start on bisu, he revolutionised a matchup; flash revolutionised all match-ups. How did Flash revolutionize TvT and TvZ? Honest question, not being sarcastic. Right. He just played with perfect MnM control, and has star sense. Thats it. He didn't create the valkonic build, he didnt create the 2 port wraith build. He just showed us insane control New builds does not equal revolutionizing a matchup. He's very innovative yes but revolutionizing TvZ and TvT is another thing altogether. I'd say his pre 3rd timing pushes in TvZ was revolutionary, as well as his lategame mass tank transition (which led to the late game mech transitions we're seeing, which he also popularized in the same way fantasy popularized mech tvz that upmagic started). What he does in TvT is a more subtle thing, akin to what jaedong did with ZvZ. None of the builds are really different, but he completely changed the way you go about executing and playing in game in the matchup. Revolution by setting a standard of understanding. This is me reaching, though. I think he's by far the most clever and innovative player, but revolution kind of implies a huge shift in the matchup as a whole happening.
I have to admit the fact that he is probably the most innovative player out there cause he makes this subtle change in his builds which totally screws up the pace of his opponent and thus allows him to crush them.
Just to confirm, wasn't the timing push against the 3rd expo of zerg out there a long time ago? And also for the mass tank transition, wasn't it already in place before he began rising in fame at the end of 2009-till now? I remember fantasy opening raxfactport into mass SV and tanks on heartbreak ridge against jaedong in the osl semifinals.
Flash revolutionized the TvP matchup with his anti-carrier build while Bisu revolutionized PvZ with his DT Sair build. Fantasy revolutionized TvZ for a time period with his valkonic build and thats about it.
Subtle things that make the TBLS stand out includes flash's slowpush of death, insane marine spread against lurkers and the way he thinks and executes them(see jd vs flash where he ferries his entire mnm blob into jd main instead of hitting the sunken line), jd's insane micro in zvz where there was a time period where bo disadvantages were nothing to him, bisu's ht + dt harass and ( sair reaver control?) and stork's control of carriers.
They didn't do any revolution, but its all this which pretty much separates them from the A class gamers. Any progamer could do the bisu build, but it would fail in the hands of a lesser player.
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oh my, I teared up when I looked at the results! so glad KT still won! excellent job flash + stork + stats! can't wait to watch!
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Bisutopia19379 Posts
KT rocking it away. Samsung tolling another loss. Stork beating flash is a great feat, but playing someone that good really takes the wind out of you for the future games.
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
Ok games with Flash in them were very entertaining, but God forgive Samsung you suck. To beat FLASH, and then get two best players killed by STATS??? Epic fail. Stork especially you fail - to be able to beat a Bisu and not able to beat a Stats it's nonsense.... T_t
expected more epicness in this match T_t
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Pretty good games, good game with stork
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On February 16 2011 02:15 _Quasar_ wrote:
Ok games with Flash in them were very entertaining, but God forgive Samsung you suck. To beat FLASH, and then get two best players killed by STATS??? Epic fail. Stork especially you fail - to be able to beat a Bisu and not able to beat a Stats it's nonsense.... T_t
expected more epicness in this match T_t
You do realize that Stats is actually an extremely competent player?
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On February 16 2011 03:23 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2011 02:15 _Quasar_ wrote:
Ok games with Flash in them were very entertaining, but God forgive Samsung you suck. To beat FLASH, and then get two best players killed by STATS??? Epic fail. Stork especially you fail - to be able to beat a Bisu and not able to beat a Stats it's nonsense.... T_t
expected more epicness in this match T_t You do realize that Stats is actually an extremely competent player?
Yes but not S-class. He is actually very much like Sea in terms of gaming level I think. A steady fighter, but lacks some "spark" that can win something serious...
Nonetheless, Stork's a fail today - that build... ugh. Just build 2 goddamn cannons like Stats did - and you'll be out of danger. No he decided to do just a gay build with no defence against a similar gay strategy of his opponent. X_x
And great dies to first attack... WTF... If they both didn't get rushed, they were absolutely capable to take him down.
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Russian Federation327 Posts
If they both didn't get rushed, they were absolutely capable to take him down.
And if Flash was not proxy gated, he would be capable to take down both of them =)
Snipe war, nuff said. It was planned to sent out Flash early, so Action and Stats can concentrate on anti-Stork builds, while Stork prepare some vs Flash strats. Nice play from KT management.
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EPT
