Normally I'd stay up for this. I've stayed up for worse matches, but Stars has been just so pitiful lately, it's hard to think they can make this a match. Stars only hope is if SKT sends Bisu, because he's still bad. Even then, Stars'll just make to an Ace match and send Zero or Free to fail again...
On June 15 2010 17:07 RandomAbuse wrote: Lol, hopefully SKT wins again, but for some reason every time I want them to win, they would end up losing. ><
Did you not want them to win every other game in round 5?
On June 15 2010 17:33 aidnai wrote: I wish these games weren't so late... DST just makes it worse too. I guess I'll catch it on John747 in a couple days.
Tell me about it. Not gettin to sleep till 5AM is a little rough.
On June 15 2010 17:33 aidnai wrote: I wish these games weren't so late... DST just makes it worse too. I guess I'll catch it on John747 in a couple days.
Tell me about it. Not gettin to sleep till 5AM is a little rough.
On June 15 2010 17:33 aidnai wrote: I wish these games weren't so late... DST just makes it worse too. I guess I'll catch it on John747 in a couple days.
Tell me about it. Not gettin to sleep till 5AM is a little rough.
Not getting to sleep until 8AM is even worse
Times like these that living below east asia is really good
Hyuk with his hand on his head - doesn't look happy. Maybe he should go back to more standard ZvZ builds? Last time his cute 9hatch didn't work either.
What's the point in 2nd hatch in base anyway ? Protection against early ling aggression and faster muta fro a timing attack before the opponent's second gas kicks in ? I don't remember the last time I saw a inbase 2nd hatch win a ZvZ.
On June 15 2010 18:19 Alaric wrote: What's the point in 2nd hatch in base anyway ? Protection against early ling aggression and faster muta fro a timing attack before the opponent's second gas kicks in ? I don't remember the last time I saw a inbase 2nd hatch win a ZvZ.
Yeah, it doesn't seem to work very well nowadays. Half a year ago it did work some of the time, but I guess players are getting better at defending that timing window.
On June 15 2010 18:19 Alaric wrote: What's the point in 2nd hatch in base anyway ? Protection against early ling aggression and faster muta fro a timing attack before the opponent's second gas kicks in ? I don't remember the last time I saw a inbase 2nd hatch win a ZvZ.
It's better against 1hat builds in comparison to a expand build. But again 1hat builds are out of fashion nowadays with the exception of the occasional 9pool speedlings.
Guemchi puts down 2 cannons before Nexus. s2 going to take his 3rd now. Takes it at his normal 2nd nat, out in the open, instead of choosing to take it at 9's nat.
Guemchi scouts the fast lurkers with a probe, throws down 2 extra cannons at nat, make that 4. Hydras working down the gateway. Only 3 zelas + 1 goon + 6 cannons, no 4 more cannons warping in
Gateway goes down, forge soon follows but not before Guemchi gets up to about 9 cannons at his front.
Guemchi going for reaver tech. s2 backs off from the bust attempt and adds on more drones and another hatch at his 3rd and nat, then suicides an overlord into Guemchi's main to see the reaver tech.
Guemchi DT dropping the nat, gets two drones on gas without s2 noticing. DT heads to the main and s2 pulls drones, but it still gets another 3 kills before hydras take it out
well I think s2's getting what he wants - toss is moving out with goon/zeal/temp and here comes zerg with hydraling, scourge and a few lurkers sprinkled about
Both players are good at massing armies and not doing anything with them, though I guess s2 can afford to do it at this point. Still, that's how Guemchi lost his advantage.
On June 15 2010 18:43 snowdrift86 wrote: Both players are good at massing armies and not doing anything with them, though I guess s2 can afford to do it at this point. Still, that's how Guemchi lost his advantage.
The difference was that s2 could afford it (after the first battle) and Guemchi couldn't.
Doesn't seem like the T1 zergs need it. The style seems to be - get 3 (or sometimes 4 bases) - mass hydraling and some lurkers, make sure toss can't get more than 3 bases, wait for toss to move out, crush their army, shut down their expos. And it's been working wonders for their ZvP so far.
Doesn't seem like the T1 zergs need it. The style seems to be - get 3 (or sometimes 4 bases) - mass hydraling and some lurkers, make sure toss can't get more than 3 bases, wait for toss to move out, crush their army, shut down their expos. And it's been working wonders for their ZvP so far.
still, expanding wouldn't hurt at all, altho it seems like these Zergs aren't very strong mechanically so this style suits them I guess
Doesn't seem like the T1 zergs need it. The style seems to be - get 3 (or sometimes 4 bases) - mass hydraling and some lurkers, make sure toss can't get more than 3 bases, wait for toss to move out, crush their army, shut down their expos. And it's been working wonders for their ZvP so far.
still, expanding wouldn't hurt at all, altho it seems like these Zergs aren't very strong mechanically so this style suits them I guess
Play to your strengths. Best advice anyone can give.
They seriously need to stop playing Guemchi, like they stopped with Piano and all the other fails they have. They should B-team G-dizzle until the Winners League.
Doesn't seem like the T1 zergs need it. The style seems to be - get 3 (or sometimes 4 bases) - mass hydraling and some lurkers, make sure toss can't get more than 3 bases, wait for toss to move out, crush their army, shut down their expos. And it's been working wonders for their ZvP so far.
still, expanding wouldn't hurt at all, altho it seems like these Zergs aren't very strong mechanically so this style suits them I guess
I don't see how this game allows to generalize over a "T1 Zerg style". As I perceived it, S2 played the game as it was needed at different times:
- Attempt early Hydra bust. Scare Guemchi into making cannons - Scout the Goon / Reaver attempt, add Zerglings to counter
At that point, he had basically denied two attack timings for Guemchi, who would try to take a third or mass up a giant army for a hanbang attack. At first he tried the third, which S2 denied with good scouting and the Zergling drop (bottom right). Then he only had to get the units (comfortably off 3 base) to fend off the hanbang and had the game won.
So if "doing what's needed to win" is a style, he played that.
FlaSh demolished Soulkey on this very map when Soulkey went early lurkers and the 1st mnm force raped them in micro godliness, I hope FanTaSy can pull this on out. SKT1 HWAITING
soulkey starts his pool - I don't think he'll be able to punish the CC he just scouted from fantasy. drone furiously micro'ing vs scv at the nat, fantasy starts a rax there too
Soulkey needed to win the game before it got out of hand. He can't handle the multi-task required to win this.... then again there aren't many Zergs in the world who can.
wow gg I thought soulkey was playing bad because of how late his hydras were but the truth was he built as little an army as possible to get himself a sick economy, prolly had a ridiculous amount of drones well played
On June 15 2010 19:46 De4ngus wrote: Wow, that was pretty terrible from Fantasy rofl.
The best part was that cute dropship micro vs the sunken that failed.
The thing is - the dropship with the 2 vultures and tank in it was hanging out over the base for quite awhile before the sunken was even finished if he had dropped earlier he wouldn't have needed to micro
On June 15 2010 19:42 Klive5ive wrote: Soulkey needed to win the game before it got out of hand. He can't handle the multi-task required to win this.... then again there aren't many Zergs in the world who can.
On June 15 2010 19:46 darkemperor wrote: should have sent Bisu.. stupid coach.
The "stupid" coach is the one who's been somehow bringing home wins despite how all of T1's players suddenly started to suck at the same time. Best no longer dominant as he used to be vs P. Bisu with a huge losing streak before they pulled him. Fantasy sucking vs Zerg (more than usual) and no longer as strong vs T and P. But despite that, before today they've been on a 5-game winstreak, thanks to great player picks and the developing zergs.
But perhaps Woongjin's picks today show that the SKT coach has to mix things up again.
I assume Soulkey wanted to really humiliate Fantasy. That's why he omitted the obvious muta switch that would have wtfpwned Fantasy midgame and instead saved up until 10000/10000 for massive a-moving. Meh.
well mutas are hard to use late game because a few irradiates can really tear them apart if stacked, and they're easy pickings if not. And on top of that for this game, Fantasy with his valks would have made it a worse choice. Actually Fantasy's valks ended up not really paying off - just a few OL kills for all that gas that could have been spent elsewhere, although they did have the previously mentioned effect of making mutas even less likely. The worse part was when Fantasy didn't have his valks in position to deny drops, which was what his goliath-free tank army was really vulnerable to.
On June 15 2010 19:53 Zona wrote: well mutas are hard to use late game because a few irradiates can really tear them apart if stacked, and they're easy pickings if not. And on top of that for this game, Fantasy with his valks would have made it a worse choice. Actually Fantasy's valks ended up not really paying off - just a few OL kills for all that gas that could have been spent elsewhere, although they did have the previously mentioned effect of making mutas even less likely. The worse part was when Fantasy didn't have his valks in position to deny drops, which was what his goliath-free tank army was really vulnerable to.
Yeah, there seem to be a lot of people saying what Soulkey should have done but in the end he got an impressive victory. He's one of the more creative players right now and it pays off big time, if not with a win then by putting on a great show.
On June 15 2010 19:47 Subversive wrote: Like all the people saying soulkey is losing in the last 5 minutes :D
haha yeah I didn't understand why he was letting fantasy get a 4th base so easily until I saw those huge armies he kept on reinforcing with his massive economy
On June 15 2010 19:46 Lucumo wrote: That's what you get for not sending BeSt *sigh*
BeSt is only about 50-50 against zerg though. It's his weakest matchup by far. Also ZerO and Soulkey are both strong against protoss opponents and Kwanro beat BeSt in their last couple of encounters.
Also, Best, Canata, Bisu all have upcoming individual league games up so its no surprise that they were not sent out. That's typically how SKT operates, if they can help it (which they can, because 3-6 seeds basically have the same route to the title)
Super, only one problem with that. SK has a history of having terrible Zerg players. Hyuk is finally starting to develop, but I don't see him improving that much anymore.