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On December 25 2009 21:33 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:27 Gryffindor_us wrote:
So, I'm curious what it would take for Shine to gain at least a street urchin's respect from some of you. He didn't 4 pool Stork 3 games in a row. He was in a very difficult group and advanced. Then he beat Stork 2-1. It wasn't as if Stork utterly destroyed him in game two. He won, yeah but he wasn't steamrolled. Yeah, it sucks to have your favorite player or a potential future matchup spoiled because someone you don't necessarily like beat your player. Stork isn't going anywhere guys. And what will you say if Shine wins the OSL? Sure it could be a Sync fluke but let it play out before you judge so harshly. Play impressively for once? Not rely on A-moving units? Showing off a nice new build? Displaying good lategame management/control? Winning a game through something other than mass muta or mass hydra? Plus, wth are you talking about stork not going anywhere, hes basically into the finals, (Movie's PvP is average-slightly above average) and he just beat Flash convincingly rather recently.
LoL. This is why Shine does not have my respect and why Stork utterly destroyed him in Game 2.
In game 2, he tried for mass hydra spamming on 3 base with a fast doom drop to avoid the cannons. It was an all-in because he knew Stork was taking his third and did not a single thing to stop it. He tried to go for the timing window when the nexus/cannons are just warping in so basically Stork's got a non-operational third rather than 10 more zealots. It got raped. For the rest of the game, Shine played so utterly generic because he had no other choice.
The reason JD is respected is because he does things that are outside the realm of what's normal. He doesn't win on basic racial or map advantages. He wins AGAINST odds. JD will be down by a lot and then he'll claw his way back in with amazing scourge micro, really efficient ling usage, really smart drops, etc.
Shine on the other hand, found the need to spend minerals making sunkens AND spores at all of his expos because he didn't have enough trust in his own multitask to use OLs and scourges to defend his shit. This is why he can't ever come back from a disadvantage.
Shine got burrow and OL speed + drop, yet never had a single smart burrow ambush vs shuttles nor did he ever have an intelligent drop.
He even managed to lose 9 drones to a DT, when he could have burrowed them. And when he saw them dying, instead of burrowing, he tried to run and lost 2 more.
Shine could not even rely on scourge micro to snipe obs while using his muta to snipe templars. Instead, Shine stood at the bridge and used his mutas and a ton of OLs to snipe obs. His mutas got drilled by goons, he lost a bunch of OL's every time he brought them to detect, and all he did was delay the inevitable. Not one of these moves are a "skill" move that use superior control/judgment to secure an advantage.
This is why Shine sucks.
The only time Shine wins is when he secures the basic early game advantages that ALL zergs have vs protoss until storm is done and there are enough dragoons/corsair to babysit the templars. If Shine doesn't win or secure a tremendous advantage before this point in time, he will never ever win a game. It's really a simple concept and it's what many others have consistently said. Shine is not a player that stands out in any way. He relies on the basic advantages of his race, nothing more.
The moment ZvP's inherent advantage got taken away, Shine was helpless.
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BTW, there are 30 pages of people flaming Flash for bunker rushing Jaedong, and no one ever brings up how Jaedong failed to stop it. Does anyone else think its a good idea to try to stop the bunker from going up rather than try to kill it while there are 4-5 SCV's mass repairing it?
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Shine is actually not that bad his zvp is extremly entertaining he goes for those agresive midgame pushes at least he is not that bad as kwanro.
Im just mad that stork lost but shine really dont deserve all this hate. At least this season MSL is not that bad just hoping that Flash will take this OSL because i will break something if he losses to calm and movie/shine.
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so you're saying in order for shine to prove himself, he can't a-move hydras, he has to let every protoss player FE with no danger from lings, and hes not allowed to use mutalisks
On December 25 2009 21:42 phaleos wrote:
What is this bullshit? Why does Shine keep being a faggot by doing the same extreme mid-game aggression bull shit? And more bullshittily why do Stork and Bisu both fall to this moron zerg with 0 management skill?! What? You said that's skill? Yeah, surely Shine's muta micro is nice, and he's good at a-moving hydras and doing gay zergling run-bys... \But has he convincingly beaten a good player without these?\ He hadn't even had the confident to show us a hive tech win yet. And look at game 2 .vs. Stork, just look how BADLY shine got raped when his mass hydra didn't win the game. This sounds very fan-boyish of me. But Shine is a faggot and I am going to continue hating him until he shows me a convincing win, against a high-level player.... WITH HIVE UNITS!!!!!
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On December 25 2009 21:45 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:43 Kazius wrote:
Friends, we've been robbed of epic finals [Flash vs Stork]. Maybe Stork should have like... not lost, or something.
Like the last OSL finals he participated in. Stork's grown a lot, and his vT is fierce.
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On December 25 2009 21:46 Chen wrote:
BTW, there are 30 pages of people flaming Flash for bunker rushing Jaedong, and no one ever brings up how Jaedong failed to stop it. Does anyone else think its a good idea to try to stop the bunker from going up rather than try to kill it while there are 4-5 SCV's mass repairing it?
Im not mad because JD didnt defend but because they played on imbalanced map where JD first ovi was dead 100% even with 9 pool JD would lost that game no matter what . Flash bo was just perfectly planed and not possible to defend because they remove cliffs and ovi cant be saved.
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To be fair, most of the finals that we hype up rarely if ever live up to the epic title that we try to place on an event that has not occurred. A finals is given the epic title after it has been played and it just leaves you in awe at how amazing both players played. Sure the fan favorites have been knocked out but that doesn't mean the epicness has left with them.
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Watching tears in this thread is priceless feeling. Thank you Shine for bringing it.
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On December 25 2009 21:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:33 Chen wrote:On December 25 2009 21:27 Gryffindor_us wrote:
So, I'm curious what it would take for Shine to gain at least a street urchin's respect from some of you. He didn't 4 pool Stork 3 games in a row. He was in a very difficult group and advanced. Then he beat Stork 2-1. It wasn't as if Stork utterly destroyed him in game two. He won, yeah but he wasn't steamrolled. Yeah, it sucks to have your favorite player or a potential future matchup spoiled because someone you don't necessarily like beat your player. Stork isn't going anywhere guys. And what will you say if Shine wins the OSL? Sure it could be a Sync fluke but let it play out before you judge so harshly. Play impressively for once? Not rely on A-moving units? Showing off a nice new build? Displaying good lategame management/control? Winning a game through something other than mass muta or mass hydra? Plus, wth are you talking about stork not going anywhere, hes basically into the finals, (Movie's PvP is average-slightly above average) and he just beat Flash convincingly rather recently. LoL. This is why Shine does not have my respect and why Stork utterly destroyed him in Game 2. In game 2, he tried for mass hydra spamming on 3 base with a fast doom drop to avoid the cannons. It was an all-in because he knew Stork was taking his third and did not a single thing to stop it. He tried to go for the timing window when the nexus/cannons are just warping in so basically Stork's got a non-operational third rather than 10 more zealots. It got raped. For the rest of the game, Shine played so utterly generic because he had no other choice. The reason JD is respected is because he does things that are outside the realm of what's normal. He doesn't win on basic racial or map advantages. He wins AGAINST odds. JD will be down by a lot and then he'll claw his way back in with amazing scourge micro, really efficient ling usage, really smart drops, etc. Shine on the other hand, found the need to spend minerals making sunkens AND spores at all of his expos because he didn't have enough trust in his own multitask to use OLs and scourges to defend his shit. This is why he can't ever come back from a disadvantage. Shine got burrow and OL speed + drop, yet never had a single smart burrow ambush vs shuttles nor did he ever have an intelligent drop. He even managed to lose 9 drones to a DT, when he could have burrowed them. And when he saw them dying, instead of burrowing, he tried to run and lost 2 more. Shine could not even rely on scourge micro to snipe obs while using his muta to snipe templars. Instead, Shine stood at the bridge and used his mutas and a ton of OLs to snipe obs. His mutas got drilled by goons, he lost a bunch of OL's every time he brought them to detect, and all he did was delay the inevitable. Not one of these moves are a "skill" move that use superior control/judgment to secure an advantage. This is why Shine sucks. The only time Shine wins is when he secures the basic early game advantages that ALL zergs have vs protoss until storm is done and there are enough dragoons/corsair to babysit the templars. If Shine doesn't win or secure a tremendous advantage before this point in time, he will never ever win a game. It's really a simple concept and it's what many others have consistently said. Shine is not a player that stands out in any way. He relies on the basic advantages of his race, nothing more. The moment ZvP's inherent advantage got taken away, Shine was helpless.
Stork must really suck if Shine only has one strategy and still beat him 2/3, eh?
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United States33513 Posts
On December 25 2009 21:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:33 Chen wrote:On December 25 2009 21:27 Gryffindor_us wrote:
So, I'm curious what it would take for Shine to gain at least a street urchin's respect from some of you. He didn't 4 pool Stork 3 games in a row. He was in a very difficult group and advanced. Then he beat Stork 2-1. It wasn't as if Stork utterly destroyed him in game two. He won, yeah but he wasn't steamrolled. Yeah, it sucks to have your favorite player or a potential future matchup spoiled because someone you don't necessarily like beat your player. Stork isn't going anywhere guys. And what will you say if Shine wins the OSL? Sure it could be a Sync fluke but let it play out before you judge so harshly. Play impressively for once? Not rely on A-moving units? Showing off a nice new build? Displaying good lategame management/control? Winning a game through something other than mass muta or mass hydra? Plus, wth are you talking about stork not going anywhere, hes basically into the finals, (Movie's PvP is average-slightly above average) and he just beat Flash convincingly rather recently. LoL. This is why Shine does not have my respect and why Stork utterly destroyed him in Game 2. In game 2, he tried for mass hydra spamming on 3 base with a fast doom drop to avoid the cannons. It was an all-in because he knew Stork was taking his third and did not a single thing to stop it. He tried to go for the timing window when the nexus/cannons are just warping in so basically Stork's got a non-operational third rather than 10 more zealots. It got raped. For the rest of the game, Shine played so utterly generic because he had no other choice. The reason JD is respected is because he does things that are outside the realm of what's normal. He doesn't win on basic racial or map advantages. He wins AGAINST odds. JD will be down by a lot and then he'll claw his way back in with amazing scourge micro, really efficient ling usage, really smart drops, etc. Shine on the other hand, found the need to spend minerals making sunkens AND spores at all of his expos because he didn't have enough trust in his own multitask to use OLs and scourges to defend his shit. This is why he can't ever come back from a disadvantage. Shine got burrow and OL speed + drop, yet never had a single smart burrow ambush vs shuttles nor did he ever have an intelligent drop. He even managed to lose 9 drones to a DT, when he could have burrowed them. And when he saw them dying, instead of burrowing, he tried to run and lost 2 more. Shine could not even rely on scourge micro to snipe obs while using his muta to snipe templars. Instead, Shine stood at the bridge and used his mutas and a ton of OLs to snipe obs. His mutas got drilled by goons, he lost a bunch of OL's every time he brought them to detect, and all he did was delay the inevitable. Not one of these moves are a "skill" move that use superior control/judgment to secure an advantage. This is why Shine sucks. The only time Shine wins is when he secures the basic early game advantages that ALL zergs have vs protoss until storm is done and there are enough dragoons/corsair to babysit the templars. If Shine doesn't win or secure a tremendous advantage before this point in time, he will never ever win a game. It's really a simple concept and it's what many others have consistently said. Shine is not a player that stands out in any way. He relies on the basic advantages of his race, nothing more. The moment ZvP's inherent advantage got taken away, Shine was helpless.
so many words to say nothing
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On December 25 2009 21:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:33 Chen wrote:On December 25 2009 21:27 Gryffindor_us wrote:
So, I'm curious what it would take for Shine to gain at least a street urchin's respect from some of you. He didn't 4 pool Stork 3 games in a row. He was in a very difficult group and advanced. Then he beat Stork 2-1. It wasn't as if Stork utterly destroyed him in game two. He won, yeah but he wasn't steamrolled. Yeah, it sucks to have your favorite player or a potential future matchup spoiled because someone you don't necessarily like beat your player. Stork isn't going anywhere guys. And what will you say if Shine wins the OSL? Sure it could be a Sync fluke but let it play out before you judge so harshly. Play impressively for once? Not rely on A-moving units? Showing off a nice new build? Displaying good lategame management/control? Winning a game through something other than mass muta or mass hydra? Plus, wth are you talking about stork not going anywhere, hes basically into the finals, (Movie's PvP is average-slightly above average) and he just beat Flash convincingly rather recently. [nerd-raging overanalysis] This is why Shine sucks. [more nerd-rage as to how Shine sucks]
I like your name. Hugs?
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On December 25 2009 21:45 MountainDewJunkie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:43 Kazius wrote:
Friends, we've been robbed of epic finals [Flash vs Stork]. Maybe Stork should have like... not lost, or something.
Seriously what is it with this stork hate from you. I know not all people like stork, but shine v flash or movie v flash? Really? Do you want to see that over stork v flash? Especially the way stork is playing now?
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how would you argue about game 1 vs stork then? stork had all the advantages early game: his probe got a drone kill and he got away with making only 1 cannon. even stork said he didnt know why he lost after playing perfectly in the follow-up interview. without cheese or any flashy tactics, shine beat stork straight up in this bo3 so at least give him some credit.
On December 25 2009 21:46 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:33 Chen wrote:On December 25 2009 21:27 Gryffindor_us wrote:
So, I'm curious what it would take for Shine to gain at least a street urchin's respect from some of you. He didn't 4 pool Stork 3 games in a row. He was in a very difficult group and advanced. Then he beat Stork 2-1. It wasn't as if Stork utterly destroyed him in game two. He won, yeah but he wasn't steamrolled. Yeah, it sucks to have your favorite player or a potential future matchup spoiled because someone you don't necessarily like beat your player. Stork isn't going anywhere guys. And what will you say if Shine wins the OSL? Sure it could be a Sync fluke but let it play out before you judge so harshly. Play impressively for once? Not rely on A-moving units? Showing off a nice new build? Displaying good lategame management/control? Winning a game through something other than mass muta or mass hydra? Plus, wth are you talking about stork not going anywhere, hes basically into the finals, (Movie's PvP is average-slightly above average) and he just beat Flash convincingly rather recently. LoL. This is why Shine does not have my respect and why Stork utterly destroyed him in Game 2. In game 2, he tried for mass hydra spamming on 3 base with a fast doom drop to avoid the cannons. It was an all-in because he knew Stork was taking his third and did not a single thing to stop it. He tried to go for the timing window when the nexus/cannons are just warping in so basically Stork's got a non-operational third rather than 10 more zealots. It got raped. For the rest of the game, Shine played so utterly generic because he had no other choice. The reason JD is respected is because he does things that are outside the realm of what's normal. He doesn't win on basic racial or map advantages. He wins AGAINST odds. JD will be down by a lot and then he'll claw his way back in with amazing scourge micro, really efficient ling usage, really smart drops, etc. Shine on the other hand, found the need to spend minerals making sunkens AND spores at all of his expos because he didn't have enough trust in his own multitask to use OLs and scourges to defend his shit. This is why he can't ever come back from a disadvantage. Shine got burrow and OL speed + drop, yet never had a single smart burrow ambush vs shuttles nor did he ever have an intelligent drop. He even managed to lose 9 drones to a DT, when he could have burrowed them. And when he saw them dying, instead of burrowing, he tried to run and lost 2 more. Shine could not even rely on scourge micro to snipe obs while using his muta to snipe templars. Instead, Shine stood at the bridge and used his mutas and a ton of OLs to snipe obs. His mutas got drilled by goons, he lost a bunch of OL's every time he brought them to detect, and all he did was delay the inevitable. Not one of these moves are a "skill" move that use superior control/judgment to secure an advantage. This is why Shine sucks. The only time Shine wins is when he secures the basic early game advantages that ALL zergs have vs protoss until storm is done and there are enough dragoons/corsair to babysit the templars. If Shine doesn't win or secure a tremendous advantage before this point in time, he will never ever win a game. It's really a simple concept and it's what many others have consistently said. Shine is not a player that stands out in any way. He relies on the basic advantages of his race, nothing more. The moment ZvP's inherent advantage got taken away, Shine was helpless.
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I just watched the Flash vs Jaedong game. Flash used to be known as the Cheddar Terran for a reason and damn, that game reminded me of how good his cheeses are.
An  Ultimate Weapon is not ultimate if it doesn't have multiple functions to deal with multiple situations. Thank you Flash for living up to your nickname.
**Isn't 7 supply -> Barracks Firebathero's build? It was generally done by Firebathero to bust down three hatch builds (which Jaedong attempted to do in the first game) if I remember correctly and one of the strengths of it is that it allows a good transition into a bunker rush.
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On December 25 2009 21:49 gemini24 wrote:
To be fair, most of the finals that we hype up rarely if ever live up to the epic title that we try to place on an event that has not occurred. A finals is given the epic title after it has been played and it just leaves you in awe at how amazing both players played. Sure the fan favorites have been knocked out but that doesn't mean the epicness has left with them.
at best, movie will put up a fight against flash. shine on the other hand won't be able to do anything to stop flash rolling over him... so yeah, the epicness has left.
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do you seriously targetfire bunker instead of scvs? how stupid.
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On December 25 2009 21:50 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:45 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On December 25 2009 21:43 Kazius wrote:
Friends, we've been robbed of epic finals [Flash vs Stork]. Maybe Stork should have like... not lost, or something. Seriously what is it with this stork hate from you. I know not all people like stork, but shine v flash or movie v flash? Really? Do you want to see that over stork v flash? Especially the way stork is playing now?
You take such interest in my posts. I'm flattered. No one is giving Shine respect, people just keep saying how great Stork is! Shine won, it was a great series, it should be left at that, but this whole "robbed" shit, this "deserves" shit, is... shit. Not everyone cares about Stork as much as you do.
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If Stork hadn't lost his first sair, wasted zeals attacking well-defended natural, different simcity in natural to account for the very common backdoor lings and hadn't moved out with zeals/archon when he probably knew hydras were on the way then maybe he wouldn't have lost immediately. You'd expect him to have a good idea of what Z is going to do on HBR, so theres no excuse.
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On December 25 2009 21:43 Nevuk wrote:
Yay Shine! Shine for royal road!
Shine ain´t royal roader.
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On December 25 2009 21:50 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2009 21:45 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On December 25 2009 21:43 Kazius wrote:
Friends, we've been robbed of epic finals [Flash vs Stork]. Maybe Stork should have like... not lost, or something. Seriously what is it with this stork hate from you. I know not all people like stork, but shine v flash or movie v flash? Really? Do you want to see that over stork v flash? Especially the way stork is playing now?
I for one, would definitely like to see a Movie vs Flash finals. I still remember the baller game Movie played vs Fantasy in the MSL on Outsider, back when Fantasy's TvP was being hyped. Yes, he lost, but he displayed some brilliant play. I wouldn't count Movie out against Flash.
Would he be the underdog? Sure, but right now, so would everyone in my opinion.
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EPT
