Protoss v Terran timing

Hot_Bid

Braavos36374 Posts

December 29 2003 22:33 GMT

I find one of the hardest things is timing when to build the gates/units in time to stop a terran's push (depending on his build, of course). Assuming we're playing on LT, when a terran goes 1 factory expand to building lots of factories and pushing/taking his mineral-only, what should the toss do?

More specifically, when should the citadel be built? Thoughts on whether to get templars? How many gates? Is it better to slowly build up your gate numbers, or build like four or six at once?

Just so I don't get flamed, I'm average to above average. I'm a little better at micro than macro, and my apm is around 130, peaks around 170 late in the game.

iD.Twisted

Netherlands3102 Posts

December 30 2003 05:27 GMT

Just get natural + min only, then tech to obs + zealot speed, then start adding gateways. If he doesn't build scan, a shuttle with 4 dt works wonderful =]~

GoSexyPerli

United States1072 Posts

December 31 2003 01:26 GMT

--- Nuked ---

KiZz

Netherlands194 Posts

January 03 2004 08:26 GMT

A N T I C I P A T I O N

Senff

United States360 Posts

January 03 2004 10:27 GMT

Usually what I do if he does a 1-Fact expand build, I do the old double expand strategy. They typically can't have enough units to stop it, and it'll keep the edge in economy. I go one gate obs build, expand, build two gates, expand, which is probably slower than the normal one, but it seems to work often enough. After this, for every expansion I have I build 3-4 gates. Someone once told me that 8 min patches can sustain 4 gates (Trance was it? I forget now, darnit), so that's what I've been doing.

Casper...

Liberia4948 Posts

January 04 2004 14:46 GMT

4 zealot shuttle + goons
expand right before you attack
control properly and you cannot lose

DevAzTaYtA

Oman2005 Posts

January 05 2004 00:24 GMT

your mistake is probably in making your second expansion too early
only do this if you are WAY ahead in unit count and you're absolutely sure you can defend it until you can start pumping from 3 bases

Pumpkin

United States1141 Posts

January 05 2004 09:51 GMT

--- Nuked ---

Pumpkin

United States1141 Posts

January 05 2004 09:56 GMT

--- Nuked ---

DevAzTaYtA

Oman2005 Posts

January 05 2004 20:16 GMT

#10

maybe it's just me, but i find if you don't make the 2nd expo so early it's much easier to defend the 100 supply push :O

z7-TranCe

Canada3158 Posts

January 06 2004 03:08 GMT

#11

i don't think pumpkin even plays protoss.

and its not just you dev,depending on certain variables most of the time progamers play like that too.

GoSexyPerli

United States1072 Posts

January 06 2004 10:58 GMT

#12

--- Nuked ---

Pumpkin

United States1141 Posts

January 06 2004 12:11 GMT

#13

--- Nuked ---

FroZZoR

China925 Posts

January 07 2004 02:12 GMT

#14

Pumpkin you are a retard, your build sucks
Also learn how to spell DUAL

Don't listen to these newbs, if you have 2 gates, double expand RIGHT AWAY to your natural/min only(at most spots this is the best strategy) and get a shuttle with 4 zeals while getting a citadel/more gates. Cut probe production more if he does a fast 4 fact push, if a slower 5 fact buildup, wait longer and power a bit harder. do NOT build cannons, this is the most retarded thing, you will always lose to push if you do this; you'll need the extra units from your gates to break the push, and once u break it/or they expand again, u should then add a forge and take another 1 or 2 exps depending on the situation.

GoSexyPerli

United States1072 Posts

January 07 2004 04:37 GMT

#15

--- Nuked ---

z7-TranCe

Canada3158 Posts

January 07 2004 07:31 GMT

#16

froz is right about the forge thing,quite off about the exp thing.if you're confident you can control the game and or you know what he's doing,double exp,otherwise you can play just fine without double expanding.

It all depends on the timing,if you double exp to fast you won't have the same amount of probes and a double expand won't pay itself off fast enough for it to be an asset vs a push,plus its alot harder to defend 3 mineral lines vs harass.

double exp to fast -> sparse probes,still works,but generally isn't worth it

slightly fast 1 exp-> solid,safe,and your probes will be at optimum numbers to run at 2 mineral lines,when the timing is right expand again.

if you want build orders or any info beyond that,check a replay

FroZZoR

China925 Posts

January 07 2004 11:48 GMT

#17

Uhh no?
the thing is, if you only exp once, the terran has no obligation to attack you. They can sit in their main and mass for a while, and by the time they come out, they'll have a dominating ground force, and you won't have carriers in time to stop it. If you're expanding once, terran will have expanded BEFORE you, and they'll have an econ advantage. Double expand forces them to attack, because if they don't you'll have a huge advantage.

Pumpkin

United States1141 Posts

January 07 2004 21:03 GMT

#18

--- Nuked ---

DevAzTaYtA

Oman2005 Posts

January 07 2004 21:56 GMT

#19

well, i guess everyone has their own style :O

however, if you play wgtour, i advise you DO cannon your expos from like the very start!

those bastards do nothing but vulture harass, whether it looks like it's gonna work or not

z7-TranCe

Canada3158 Posts

January 08 2004 05:59 GMT

#20

yea it depends who you're playing/your style,double exp is an easy win on wgt if you defend properly from harass

double exp vs nada or a pro,see what happens.

and froz i completely understand what you're saying,but its not the only way,and its far from the safest.

FroZZoR

China925 Posts

January 08 2004 16:04 GMT

#21

Well basically it's the only way u can win at pro level though if you're going just goon/obs, try not double exping vs nada and u won't have a chance

ToKoreaWithLove

Norway10161 Posts

January 08 2004 16:43 GMT

#22

Im tempted to ask which of you play at pro level and can really tell. I know trance is/was pretty good, so i tend to value his advice a bit more.

z7-TranCe

Canada3158 Posts

January 09 2004 04:45 GMT

#23

i used to play at pro level a year or so ago,and so has froz,we both know our shit but the difference is that i've played protoss for 4 years and he hasn't.

Froz im not saying it can't work,im just saying its not the only way.
you of all people should know this,how many times has rekrul beat you without dual exping?

and go watch any professional protoss player and see when they take their 2nd expansion,thats what i'm talking about.

BinGBonG[gamei]

Netherlands514 Posts

January 09 2004 05:48 GMT

#24

hmm the european style is 2 nexus when terran expant,but i like the korean way much more its saver and better.
They just go 1 expant and storm drop to damage terran eco,than can u expant our mass units and wait when terran come out brake his pusch.if u broke his pusch u can expo like 3 times

z7-TranCe

Canada3158 Posts

January 09 2004 06:00 GMT

#25

yea,koreans play pvt alot different,i find both styles to be effective in their own ways,but froz doesn't seem to think so :-)

amat

United States1788 Posts

January 09 2004 15:27 GMT

#26

On January 09 2004 01:43 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Im tempted to ask which of you play at pro level and can really tell.

Blaze, you know Frozzor is FroZ, right?

My take is the topic creator could use either Froz's or Trance's advice and do very well. Try each and see which stlye works for you.

Or, quit messing around with a silly race and pick zerg

Roman

United States2595 Posts

January 10 2004 11:57 GMT

#27

The way I see it is that a good 4 fact or even some 3 fact pushers will be able to contain you too easily if you double expo immediately. The only time I really double expo fast is in far pos or to other mains so I can flank easier. The safest choice is definitely waiting until you have at least a dozen goons and 4 zlots in a shuttle before you take your second expo. Obviously many things affect probe production/unit mixes/etc. but I hope you get the idea.

Deleted User 3420

24492 Posts

January 10 2004 22:05 GMT

#28

You don't need to double expand. Single expand + temp to a 2nd expand is fine.

Double exp is easier, though, but be sure you know what your opponent is doing.

Deleted User 3420

24492 Posts

January 10 2004 22:06 GMT

#29

and it also depends on position.

putang

Australia9 Posts

January 11 2004 04:57 GMT

#30

pvt can be 2 extremes, a) really fun b)knowing ur gonna lose but T delays it by massing xD >< then...boom g..g

Roman

United States2595 Posts

January 11 2004 20:30 GMT

#31

lol... na.

Wiget

Poland139 Posts

January 13 2004 04:23 GMT

#32

I played like u said and i lost T_T. What I did wrong

http://www.wgtour.com/match.php?action=dl&datab=broodwar&id=241688&url=upload/ladder/broodwar/9997vs_id.wiget.rep

z7-TranCe

Canada3158 Posts

January 13 2004 08:45 GMT

#33

you were to slow,just need to practice it more thats all,you added gates and tech to slow,once you were contained it was pretty much over.

Cannons are big _no_ before he pushes too,basic rule of thumb is don't make that forge until you broke his push and or are securing a solid advantage.Until you have cannons,you need to use goons.

You need to learn timing if you play with that style also,you have to expand slightly before you know what he's doing,but not so fast that you won't have a shuttle in time to stop a drop.

and your nexus was placed weird,don't do that unless you're planning on not making a shuttle! =]

i'd find a rep for you,but i'm lazy t_t
i'll be messin around on wgtour for a few days,send me a msg on iG.tranCe and i'll show you some reps/help you out a bit :-)

ToKoreaWithLove

Norway10161 Posts

January 14 2004 10:49 GMT

#34

On January 10 2004 00:27 amat wrote:

Show nested quote +

I know now;)

surv

Belgium337 Posts

January 14 2004 14:24 GMT

#35

Expand to ur natural keep terran contained make a shutlle. Take island. Use shutlle for 4 zeals. Now u have 3 gas. I mostly make 2 star cars while keeping the terran at bay.