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On August 04 2009 15:58 DreaM)XeRO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 15:53 Nevuk wrote:On August 04 2009 15:16 DreaM)XeRO wrote:On August 04 2009 15:05 Nevuk wrote:
I'm practicing this on iccup now, if anyone wants to play me. I've just realized that doing the level of harass necessary to this build frequently causes zerg to go 3 hatch ling. So basically, time to learn better sim cities. beautiful. I just played a D+ zerg on HBR with this. I scouted a 3 hatch spire and then 5 hatch hydra, i pushed out with 4 zlots and a goon, around the 9 minute mark. I got supply blocked while micro-ing a bit, but i forced him to build lings; i then transitioned into a mid-game ht/goon/zeal army while taking my third. I was at a loss for what to do after my initial attack so i macro'ed up.. Quick question. when is storm to be upgraded? I just got off a really nice game against a kor zerg, I got really far ahead but wound up losing due to my inferior macro and multitasking later on and because I didn't pull out soon enough - I killed tons of lings and forced something like 4 sunkens but didn't retreat and lost my initial force needlessly, and got contained to two bases : http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18204 . Rewatching this, had I gone for his 3rd, my attack would've been much more successful - attacking over the bridges into the nat in desti is brutal. Oh yeah, I'll be on under LaughingSphinx As for storm - whenever you want, basically- this is just an opening that punishes 3 hat spire - 5 hat muta, it can branch out however you wish. It really depends on their unit composition and if you wish to go sair/dts instead- I typically go Sair/dt and attempt to harass expos because the initial 2 dts are more useful against an immediate counter due to the length it takes storm to research and temps to get energy. If my harass with dts fails and both are left alive, I make a dark archon, research maelstrom and start ht production /storm after that point. You should have the gas right after the attack to research storm and start 2 temps, but you can delay storm if you force lots of lings because they won't have the hydras necessary to break your speedlots soon. I prefer going heavy sair builds or getting archons (dark or light) because of a likely muta switch, and because storm won't finish in time if he comes directly at you with hydras. icic..i love how this forces lings and sunks. And i do agree with you. Attacking the third is a great idea. 4/5 lots can take down a hatch somewhat quickly. I'm assuming you take your third at around storm timing?
Yep - around when you have 2 - 3 storms available in case one gets sniped, although you can expand earlier based on scouting, of which you should have plenty.
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Nice write-up.
I've been playing around with this sair-zealot build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90385 Hits a very similar timing, but with more units and leg speed. Still cuts out +1.
I'm going to watch the reps and play around with this build. See how it works.
Be sure to add to liquipedia to take credit for your work~!
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On August 04 2009 17:37 thunk wrote:Nice write-up. I've been playing around with this sair-zealot build: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=90385 Hits a very similar timing, but with more units and leg speed. Still cuts out +1. I'm going to watch the reps and play around with this build. See how it works. Be sure to add to liquipedia to take credit for your work~!
I've also wanted to try out the sair/zealot build ever since seeing ret or lz get raped by it on stream, and it seems incredibly similar to this strategy, utilizes the same window.
After examining it a bit, Violet's build has a weaker timing attack and stronger follow-up, and is overall safer and more stable, though it requires stronger probe and zealot micro to be effective.
The major differences are that the sair zealot has 3 gates instead of 2, a very late natural gas, and much later tech in favor of pumping 3 gate zeal with no +1, leg speed and sair - the mass sair and late nat gas is what slows it down and makes it a much weaker build, imo. Violet's timing encourages production of lings and the +1 or reaver transitions make lings very ineffective, while mass lings could run over the speedzeal/sair build due to lack of +1.
The sair/zealot is safer against 2 hatch mutas, and about the same vs 3 hatch mutas - however I think Violet's is better vs every other 2 or 3 hatch build, and has a much more viable mid-late game transition. Defending 2 hatch hydras especially is very easy, as their route to the main will be scouted easily by the sair in the process of harass. (If I suspect mutas, I probably will do neither of these builds, though). 3 hatch lurkers is fairly strong against the speedzeal build as well. I consider them analogous to 2 gate obs vs 2 gate reaver in pvp - the first is safer but the second fields stronger forces earlier.
I'd add this to liquipedia but am unsure of where it would go and too lazy to read the style guide, plus waiting for some more people to give feedback as to the viability of the build.
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I agree with your assessment. While the Violet's build comes a tad earlier (if that) but the follow up is way stronger and you get more tech and more flexibility out of your build. The sair-zeal does way more damage but if you mess up your follow-up you're dead, 100% guaranteed.
The sair-zeal fairs way better against muta than Violet's build, but Violet's build allows for more tech. We have to come up with a better name than Violet's build, because it definitely isn't his build. It screws you over in so many other ways though. Low gas, late storm, late obs, really hard to manage.
The build's really viable. I've played 2 games with it and I like it better than the sair-zeal build (which I have been playing with recently). I'm going to practice with it and add it to my arsenal of PvZ builds.
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good effort for watching replay endlessly
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On August 05 2009 09:31 thunk wrote:
I agree with your assessment. While the Violet's build comes a tad earlier (if that) but the follow up is way stronger and you get more tech and more flexibility out of your build. The sair-zeal does way more damage but if you mess up your follow-up you're dead, 100% guaranteed.
The sair-zeal fairs way better against muta than Violet's build, but Violet's build allows for more tech. We have to come up with a better name than Violet's build, because it definitely isn't his build.
The build's really viable. I've played 2 games with it and I like it better than the sair-zeal build (which I have been playing with recently). I'm going to practice with it and add it to my arsenal of PvZ builds. .
Yeah, it needs a name. Violet's specific build probably is the one used vs LZgamer immediately followed by dt/sair into a dark archon based on his game vs Hogil. However, his recent pvz televised games actually don't feature this 2 gateways in natural, as all of them were from june. His specific innovation is encouraging runbys by having simcities that look just weak enough to be broken, while having probe micro good enough to come out ahead no matter how many lings make it through. The timing attack is still strong enough to finish off a Z who plays too greedily, without sacrificing mid-late game. The dark archon actually helps it to transition to very late game pvz very easily, more easily than any other modern build I can think of, actually.
I've yet to see any other pro Pvz make use of this effectively, though, most pvz I see recently are focusing on being able to secure the third and just defend until that point and then massing off of three bases a la much. Bisu's most recent pvz win is vs JD, which was a very specific strategy designed to defeat his muta fondness (mass goon/ht). I don't think it's too unfair to just credit Violet with it, because it is pulled from his replays from games played within the last month. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned having observed this phenomena from pro games for months, they could probably clarify the dilemma of who originated this build for sure.
edit : I think movie made use of this window vs JD, however his build was very all-in and JD didn't play as greedily as most zergs would. (The key thing here would be if JD 12 hatched, which I don't remember). Essentially, out of the builds I'm aware of that take advantage of this timing window, this is the only one that seems capable of being a standard one.
On August 05 2009 09:57 AlwaysGG wrote:
good effort for watching replay endlessly
I've never wished so much that there was a rewind button.
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Somehow I don't think this strategy is completely effective if it is scouted. If the opponent has an overlord in your base then you are in big trouble. Also experienced zerg users also check the forge for a +1 rush of some sort. +1 speedlot is 7:30 and Archon/speedlot is 8:30. This strategy, timed at 7:15(tl;dr the whole thing, will read all of it later have to go now) woudn't make too much of a difference in my opinion from a speedlot rush and the proper defenses would have been taken care of or whatever, just my initial thoughts
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On August 05 2009 11:15 Racenilatr wrote:
Somehow I don't think this strategy is completely effective if it is scouted. If the opponent has an overlord in your base then you are in big trouble. Also experienced zerg users also check the forge for a +1 rush of some sort. +1 speedlot is 7:30 and Archon/speedlot is 8:30. This strategy, timed at 7:15(tl;dr the whole thing, will read all of it later have to go now) woudn't make too much of a difference in my opinion from a speedlot rush and the proper defenses would have been taken care of or whatever, just my initial thoughts
Essentially, this thread is about 2 builds used in replays of Violet's that both make use of the same timing window.
For the weak speedzeal push :
If they have OL in your base an early goon is made - it is less effective if scouted, but it is still effective because the point isn't necessarily to do any damage, just to force sunkens and lings and ride an economic/tech advantage to the midgame. The 2 gate speedzeal rush is slightly earlier than a standard speedzeal rush, and is essentially just a weak speedzeal push with stronger followup, as someone said in the thread. I actually think that's probably the best name for it - weak speedzeal push.
For the unupgraded zeal timing attack -
The other build doesn't have +1 or leg speed, actually. There's actually no sign it is coming at all because it comes off of 1 gate. It doesn't have +1 air either, despite being a sair heavy build.
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United States44374 Posts
Tried it vs oystein. It killed a few drones, stopped mining and got more than the money worth in hydralisk kills. However my storm was a few seconds too late to save my nat when he unleashed his massed up hydra in a counterattack. Maybe I got a 2nd gas too late
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On August 04 2009 13:58 OneOther wrote:
thanks for the excellent write up. i have been using this build quite often for a while now, but haven't practiced it sufficiently to write something like this. great job. i am gonna experiment with this a bit more and hopefully give some feedback as well
Yeah I've seen you and protosses on iccup start doing this alot more. Can you link to the violet replays OP? I haven't seen those around anywhere.
I think some of the newer zerg builds fair alot better against this opening though. Recently effort has been opening with the same 5hatch spire sort of play, only using lings+sim city'd sunkens to defend from any sort of early zealot attacks, then getting delayed mutas, followed by lurker into the normal hydra/lurk zvp.
Although I'm used to doing that vs. P's who try this with a really delayed +1. Maybe this is the protoss reponse to that as well. ZvP changes so damn much.
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On August 05 2009 11:48 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2009 13:58 OneOther wrote:
thanks for the excellent write up. i have been using this build quite often for a while now, but haven't practiced it sufficiently to write something like this. great job. i am gonna experiment with this a bit more and hopefully give some feedback as well Yeah I've seen you and protosses on iccup start doing this alot more. Can you link to the violet replays OP? I haven't seen those around anywhere. I think some of the newer zerg builds fair alot better against this opening though. Recently effort has been opening with the same 5hatch spire sort of play, only using lings+sim city'd sunkens to defend from any sort of early zealot attacks, then getting delayed mutas, followed by lurker into the normal hydra/lurk zvp. Although I'm used to doing that vs. P's who try this with a really delayed +1. Maybe this is the protoss reponse to that as well. ZvP changes so damn much.
They're in the OP but they're kind of hard to see since the spoiler tags didn't work
Violet vs LZ
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18057
violet vs hyvaa
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=18196
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On August 05 2009 11:40 Kwark wrote:
Tried it vs oystein. It killed a few drones, stopped mining and got more than the money worth in hydralisk kills. However my storm was a few seconds too late to save my nat when he unleashed his massed up hydra in a counterattack. Maybe I got a 2nd gas too late
Nat gas is supposed to go down at the same time as the citadel, you get templar archives as soon as you start to move out (gas should work out that way). I think dts are a safer follow up because storm is delayed just enough for this to happen (vs LZ with that build Violet has 2 DTs queued up in the middle of his attack), and OL speed probably won't be done if they counter like this. If you're more comfortable with HT's , you may want to only make one sair and get an earlier nat gas by cutting another round of probes.
Edit : Anyway you could post a replay of this or any other games you've tried this out with?
I just defeated a zerg with 56 higher apm using this strat, and 48 higher eapm, it's almost autowin vs 2 hatch hydra. His build wasn't great, though (2 hat hydra -> 3 hat lurkling). It's so easy to defend the initial attack and for the follow up, they have issues affording OL speed and affording sunks at 3rd - I got something like 40 drone kills with dts (he never had the gas for OL speed). This tends to be what happens if the zerg goes an extremely aggressive or 9 pool opening - the mid game tech just allows a complete overrun of them. It's harder to get a simcity on desti that lets you have 2 gates in the natural, but it is doable.
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as a zerg, if i suspected this kind of build i'd delay my spire and go for hydras with speed to fend off the sair, opening up the possibilty to quickly cut drones and make enough hydra/sunk to fend the early zeal attack.
imo, until the P metagame brings in some real harassment play, Z will just keep tweaking the 3 base tech -> 5 hatch to suit the occasion. for years now, PvZ standard has been FE->tech/macro->push. Until the P metagame starts being more aggressive while settting up their 2 bases, Z will always be able to take 3 and adjust their defense timings accordingly.
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i9t is +1 leg classic -.-
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Screw you guys, almost every ZvP game I played last night was one of these builds. It's so frustrating to play against.
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Neither of these builds are new... I'd be surprised if any B level or better P haven't known of them for a while. They're just unpopular among foreigners because of the high risk of punishment due to minor errors in execution.
Something I didn't notice in the guide is that P needs to watch Violet's micro patterns here. Notice how he does lots of his base building in bulk - 4 gates at once, archive pylon observatory at once, etc. He does these things during calculated breaks from harassment micro. It's important to remember those times as opportunities to go build stuff. For example, when sair/shuttle first move out to harass, you have numerous opportunities to jump to your main and build quickly while watching the minimap to see what is spotting your force.
Still though, very nice thoroughness and detail!
On August 05 2009 21:35 Zoler wrote:
You can't push in PvZ
AGREED. Need to use proper terminology  Using "push" for every attack made takes away the usefulness we used to have in describing something specific as a push (think TvP). Timing attack is a lot more appropriate.
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Yea this build is pretty hard to deal with  I've lost so many games to this
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 05 2009 10:03 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 09:31 thunk wrote:
I agree with your assessment. While the Violet's build comes a tad earlier (if that) but the follow up is way stronger and you get more tech and more flexibility out of your build. The sair-zeal does way more damage but if you mess up your follow-up you're dead, 100% guaranteed.
The sair-zeal fairs way better against muta than Violet's build, but Violet's build allows for more tech. We have to come up with a better name than Violet's build, because it definitely isn't his build.
The build's really viable. I've played 2 games with it and I like it better than the sair-zeal build (which I have been playing with recently). I'm going to practice with it and add it to my arsenal of PvZ builds. . Yeah, it needs a name. Violet's specific build probably is the one used vs LZgamer immediately followed by dt/sair into a dark archon based on his game vs Hogil. However, his recent pvz televised games actually don't feature this 2 gateways in natural, as all of them were from june. His specific innovation is encouraging runbys by having simcities that look just weak enough to be broken, while having probe micro good enough to come out ahead no matter how many lings make it through. The timing attack is still strong enough to finish off a Z who plays too greedily, without sacrificing mid-late game. The dark archon actually helps it to transition to very late game pvz very easily, more easily than any other modern build I can think of, actually. I've yet to see any other pro Pvz make use of this effectively, though, most pvz I see recently are focusing on being able to secure the third and just defend until that point and then massing off of three bases a la much. Bisu's most recent pvz win is vs JD, which was a very specific strategy designed to defeat his muta fondness (mass goon/ht). I don't think it's too unfair to just credit Violet with it, because it is pulled from his replays from games played within the last month. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned having observed this phenomena from pro games for months, they could probably clarify the dilemma of who originated this build for sure. edit : I think movie made use of this window vs JD, however his build was very all-in and JD didn't play as greedily as most zergs would. (The key thing here would be if JD 12 hatched, which I don't remember). Essentially, out of the builds I'm aware of that take advantage of this timing window, this is the only one that seems capable of being a standard one. Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 09:57 AlwaysGG wrote:
good effort for watching replay endlessly I've never wished so much that there was a rewind button.
I only remember ever seeing the build on heartbreak and later games desti, and to my surprise I actually found it on the first game of ZvP on heartbreak, as well as the second and third.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11745_Stork_vs_ZerO/vod
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11906_great_vs_SangHo/vod
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11949_Killer_vs_SangHo/vod
But unlike the OP none of these games have +1, and I don't ever remember it having it but I figure its pretty much the same thing anways. Violet was probably just experimenting in it that one game. The game I actually remember the most is some game on tau where P is top left and Z is bottom, which I finally found after 15 mins of searching. It was a pain to find because for some reason the game isn't in TLPD despite tossgirl vs chavi from the same round of gom being in it but that might just be there because it is tossgirl.>.>
http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/600
And it says this was posted about 10 times before stork vs zero on heartbreak, and to my surprise it was violet using it! So it was definately made before heartbreak.
http://www.gomtv.net/classics3/vod/600
However I remember seeing this game and not being surprised at all about the build because I had recalled seeing it a lot lately so this definately isn't the first case. And it just suddenly hit me; I remember bisu using this so many times in a row on medusa and andromeda and dominating because zerg wouldn't scout the second gateway and would always blindly take their 4th fast expecting P to take their free mineral only or scout it and expect them to make 2 DT's or something.
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11388_Bisu_vs_EffOrt/vod
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11503_Bisu_vs_keke/vod
http://www.gomtv.net/classics2/vod/572
And I remember just being so dumbfounded in the Jaedong vs Bisu game thinking something like "WHY JAEDONG? BISU HAS USED THIS BUILD LIKE 5 TIMES IN A ROW ON ANDROMEDA T.T" So if anything I guess I would call it the Bisu build 
But really, I'm not positive that Bisu was the first one to use it. If anyone else made it I would guess Best because they are on the same team and I remember him using it once or twice, but I don't really care enough to look up when he used it.
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On August 05 2009 21:35 Zoler wrote:
You can't push in PvZ
Thanks, I forgot about this. I used 7:00 push because that's the time he pushed out from his main - it's not a push, but a timing attack. If a mod could update the title I'd be grateful. Also, I think changing it to [G] instead might be more applicable, because it's not really theorycraft and multiple people have confirmed its viability at higher levels of play.
On August 05 2009 20:32 LuDwig- wrote:
i9t is +1 leg classic -.-
If you mean that it's just classic +1 speedzeal, not according to liquipedia.
The build on this page : http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Plus1_Speedzeal_(vs._Zerg) has 3 gateways instead of 2, much later natural gas and goes up to 5 gateways more rapidly, with no stargate.
On August 05 2009 23:56 Louder wrote:
Neither of these builds are new... I'd be surprised if any B level or better P haven't known of them for a while. They're just unpopular among foreigners because of the high risk of punishment due to minor errors in execution.
Something I didn't notice in the guide is that P needs to watch Violet's micro patterns here. Notice how he does lots of his base building in bulk - 4 gates at once, archive pylon observatory at once, etc. He does these things during calculated breaks from harassment micro. It's important to remember those times as opportunities to go build stuff. For example, when sair/shuttle first move out to harass, you have numerous opportunities to jump to your main and build quickly while watching the minimap to see what is spotting your force.
Still though, very nice thoroughness and detail!
Would you mind if I included this in the OP? I'd been struggling with this in the execution for a while, and didn't really understand how he was throwing down so much stuff while still microing his zeals effectively. It's fairly easy to kill even a C- or C players third base with this (whatever a 150 eapm player is, I managed to do it and get into the natural as well), but doing this while placing 2 extra gates, keeping on pylons, and never missing probes is the hard part. His micro is also quite literally, perfect. He never loses a zeal unnecessarily, always pulls back the zeal or goon targeted by the sunk or multiple lings. The timing attack vs hyvaa could be textbook on how to micro slowzeals to get the most out of them.
I kind of had suspicions that these were very well known at B and up level, but felt they needed to be shared regardless due to their effectiveness. The difficulty in execution, I feel, is justified even more at lower levels of play as it's a direct challenge that places pressure on the Z and forces them to change from their standard, memorized build order or die, and many lower level players have difficulty adapting, it's a complete reversal of the standard Pvz early-midgame. Also, I haven
t really seen any build order guides after the 4 gate 2 archon build that I've seen as viable, safe openings in modern pvz.
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EPT
