On August 05 2009 09:31 thunk wrote: I agree with your assessment. While the Violet's build comes a tad earlier (if that) but the follow up is way stronger and you get more tech and more flexibility out of your build. The sair-zeal does way more damage but if you mess up your follow-up you're dead, 100% guaranteed.
The sair-zeal fairs way better against muta than Violet's build, but Violet's build allows for more tech. We have to come up with a better name than Violet's build, because it definitely isn't his build.
The build's really viable. I've played 2 games with it and I like it better than the sair-zeal build (which I have been playing with recently). I'm going to practice with it and add it to my arsenal of PvZ builds.
. Yeah, it needs a name. Violet's specific build probably is the one used vs LZgamer immediately followed by dt/sair into a dark archon based on his game vs Hogil. However, his recent pvz televised games actually don't feature this 2 gateways in natural, as all of them were from june. His specific innovation is encouraging runbys by having simcities that look just weak enough to be broken, while having probe micro good enough to come out ahead no matter how many lings make it through. The timing attack is still strong enough to finish off a Z who plays too greedily, without sacrificing mid-late game. The dark archon actually helps it to transition to very late game pvz very easily, more easily than any other modern build I can think of, actually.
I've yet to see any other pro Pvz make use of this effectively, though, most pvz I see recently are focusing on being able to secure the third and just defend until that point and then massing off of three bases a la much. Bisu's most recent pvz win is vs JD, which was a very specific strategy designed to defeat his muta fondness (mass goon/ht). I don't think it's too unfair to just credit Violet with it, because it is pulled from his replays from games played within the last month. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned having observed this phenomena from pro games for months, they could probably clarify the dilemma of who originated this build for sure. edit : I think movie made use of this window vs JD, however his build was very all-in and JD didn't play as greedily as most zergs would. (The key thing here would be if JD 12 hatched, which I don't remember). Essentially, out of the builds I'm aware of that take advantage of this timing window, this is the only one that seems capable of being a standard one.
On August 05 2009 09:57 AlwaysGG wrote: good effort for watching replay endlessly
I've never wished so much that there was a rewind button.
I only remember ever seeing the build on heartbreak and later games desti, and to my surprise I actually found it on the first game of ZvP on heartbreak, as well as the second and third.
But unlike the OP none of these games have +1, and I don't ever remember it having it but I figure its pretty much the same thing anways. Violet was probably just experimenting in it that one game. The game I actually remember the most is some game on tau where P is top left and Z is bottom, which I finally found after 15 mins of searching. It was a pain to find because for some reason the game isn't in TLPD despite tossgirl vs chavi from the same round of gom being in it but that might just be there because it is tossgirl.>.>
And it says this was posted about 10 times before stork vs zero on heartbreak, and to my surprise it was violet using it! So it was definately made before heartbreak.
However I remember seeing this game and not being surprised at all about the build because I had recalled seeing it a lot lately so this definately isn't the first case. And it just suddenly hit me; I remember bisu using this so many times in a row on medusa and andromeda and dominating because zerg wouldn't scout the second gateway and would always blindly take their 4th fast expecting P to take their free mineral only or scout it and expect them to make 2 DT's or something.
And I remember just being so dumbfounded in the Jaedong vs Bisu game thinking something like "WHY JAEDONG? BISU HAS USED THIS BUILD LIKE 5 TIMES IN A ROW ON ANDROMEDA T.T" So if anything I guess I would call it the Bisu build
But really, I'm not positive that Bisu was the first one to use it. If anyone else made it I would guess Best because they are on the same team and I remember him using it once or twice, but I don't really care enough to look up when he used it.
Thanks for the background info - it looks like this build has been around for a very long time, however, 3 hat - 5 hat hydra make it a bit more useful than it used to be. Maybe it's doctor k. or kingdom's build? Best doesn't really strike me as a strategic kind of person. These games were all before I really followed the pro scene haha, which explains why I had no idea it existed. edit: Going back and watching some of these, they aren't the same builds at all honestly. The build violet used vs ggaemo comes considerably later and less effectively (he gets a way earlier natural gas and later second gate), although it clearly has the same origins.
Bisu vs Effort isn't the same build either - the second gate goes down after the citadel has finished. It's closer, though. He also gets an earlier robo and takes his third instead of 2 more gates. (probably because of the map differences though)
"and is terrible on python (as with any FE opening). It can be more powerful if the early aggression actually does some damage, as this further encourages the Z to delay his build."
FE openings are terrible on python? why? Sorry for the noob question.
On August 11 2009 19:55 JieXian wrote: Wow nice guide, very detailed. Thank you!
"and is terrible on python (as with any FE opening). It can be more powerful if the early aggression actually does some damage, as this further encourages the Z to delay his build."
FE openings are terrible on python? why? Sorry for the noob question.
It's hard to make good simcities due to the very wide natural chokes, and ling all-ins/hydra busts are much more powerful than on most other maps due to the short rush distance. Python was before the FE era started, compare it to Holy World which marks out where you need to place buildings for a nice simcity. Z also has a very difficult to take third which encourages 2 base play and allows P more of a chance with one base tech than on a modern map.
It's still probably best to Fast Expand, but it's risky and you have to cannon up too much on this map to do this specific timing. Z should also have issues holding his third vs any kind of early attack, or attack in general, and be less inclined to do the 5 hatch hydra build. (I usually see 3 hatch hydra or 3 hatch muta at my level, with 3 hatch lurker from the macro zergs who expand all over the map after containing).
Damn Nevuk, you writing featured strat forum posts now? And to think I smashed you brutally and gave you your first tips not too long ago... Good job (:
Hmm I tested, with Zerg after overpool I'll have 4 hydras and a sunken at both expos at 7:10. Adding my initial 6-12 lings, I don't think this should be much of a problem. If it arrives at my base at exactly 7:00, I'll only have about 2 hydras and a sunken per expo, but I don't think it was that early?
EDIT: But my den finishes at like 35 supply and I only started making hydras around 42 supply. If one scouts this build, starting to make Hydras earlier should easily be able to deflect it.
On August 15 2009 09:38 Shikyo wrote: Hmm I tested, with Zerg after overpool I'll have 4 hydras and a sunken at both expos at 7:10. Adding my initial 6-12 lings, I don't think this should be much of a problem. If it arrives at my base at exactly 7:00, I'll only have about 2 hydras and a sunken per expo, but I don't think it was that early?
EDIT: But my den finishes at like 35 supply and I only started making hydras around 42 supply. If one scouts this build, starting to make Hydras earlier should easily be able to deflect it.
That's correct for the +1 speedlot push, but the point of that isn't necessarily to kill so much as to force defense and earlier hydras, with a stronger followup than a typical build like this, while still retaining the potential to kill a greedy zerg.
The other build arrives around 7:15 and is designed to force lings and is done off one gateway and is typically unscoutable, but can't actually kill a zerg (it's 5 or 6 normal zeals with no +1).
Btw, about the natural gas - the actual build Violet uses takes it when leg speed is researched, however I find that somewhat unforgiving and have taken to cutting an additional round of probes to get it somewhat earlier.
On August 15 2009 08:44 fanatacist wrote: Damn Nevuk, you writing featured strat forum posts now? And to think I smashed you brutally and gave you your first tips not too long ago... Good job (:
On August 15 2009 09:38 Shikyo wrote: Hmm I tested, with Zerg after overpool I'll have 4 hydras and a sunken at both expos at 7:10. Adding my initial 6-12 lings, I don't think this should be much of a problem. If it arrives at my base at exactly 7:00, I'll only have about 2 hydras and a sunken per expo, but I don't think it was that early?
EDIT: But my den finishes at like 35 supply and I only started making hydras around 42 supply. If one scouts this build, starting to make Hydras earlier should easily be able to deflect it.
That's correct for the +1 speedlot push, but the point of that isn't necessarily to kill so much as to force defense and earlier hydras, with a stronger followup than a typical build like this, while still retaining the potential to kill a greedy zerg.
The other build arrives around 7:15 and is designed to force lings and is done off one gateway and is typically unscoutable, but can't actually kill a zerg (it's 5 or 6 normal zeals with no +1).
Btw, about the natural gas - the actual build Violet uses takes it when leg speed is researched, however I find that somewhat unforgiving and have taken to cutting an additional round of probes to get it somewhat earlier.
On August 15 2009 08:44 fanatacist wrote: Damn Nevuk, you writing featured strat forum posts now? And to think I smashed you brutally and gave you your first tips not too long ago... Good job (:
I didn't think this was featured . Oo.
It is featured in the PX in Chalk Talk which is chosen by Chill who is the strategy mod, that is about as good as it gets I think n_n
On August 15 2009 09:38 Shikyo wrote: Hmm I tested, with Zerg after overpool I'll have 4 hydras and a sunken at both expos at 7:10. Adding my initial 6-12 lings, I don't think this should be much of a problem. If it arrives at my base at exactly 7:00, I'll only have about 2 hydras and a sunken per expo, but I don't think it was that early?
EDIT: But my den finishes at like 35 supply and I only started making hydras around 42 supply. If one scouts this build, starting to make Hydras earlier should easily be able to deflect it.
That's correct for the +1 speedlot push, but the point of that isn't necessarily to kill so much as to force defense and earlier hydras, with a stronger followup than a typical build like this, while still retaining the potential to kill a greedy zerg.
The other build arrives around 7:15 and is designed to force lings and is done off one gateway and is typically unscoutable, but can't actually kill a zerg (it's 5 or 6 normal zeals with no +1).
Btw, about the natural gas - the actual build Violet uses takes it when leg speed is researched, however I find that somewhat unforgiving and have taken to cutting an additional round of probes to get it somewhat earlier.
On August 15 2009 08:44 fanatacist wrote: Damn Nevuk, you writing featured strat forum posts now? And to think I smashed you brutally and gave you your first tips not too long ago... Good job (:
I didn't think this was featured . Oo.
If it hits at 7:15 with 5 zealots, I will not need to make any more hydras than I normally would; I'll still have about 5 hydras and a sunken in each base. If the zealots have no speed and I have some lings outside his base to see when he moves out, it's no problem to micro against them... I don't think that this build is able to force much extra defense at all, unless the Zerg doesn't get that one sunken... but in that case he'll have some more hydras out by then.
The other build, though... might be more troublesome. Still, with the probe cutting and the reduced production capability, it still should leave the Z ahead. Z will have a total of about 12 lings in addition to those 4 or so Hydras, and should easily be able to defend. Even with 6 or 8 lings it should be possible to defend, given the sunken and the fact that you can get Hydras from the other base and also the fact that you'll have like a 2 hatchery pump at your third for reinforcements. I guess it works if the Z has bad macro and doesn't get Hydras out in time... I'm not sure how the build is supposed to be done exactly, but my den finishes before my spire when I do it. As in:
overpool 11h 14h 13g 16overlord 18lair 22overlord ~30 spire 35 hatch+overlord(you get the larva for the overlord a bit after you get 300 minerals for hatch) 35 hatch 35 den 35 nat gas
Den finishes a few seconds before spire. So if you scout that kind of an opening all you need to do is just start getting Hydras slightly earlier, starting at about 38 supply as opposed to about 42. After you have enough to hold the attack off, they won't be pressuring anytime soon and you can get the drones you missed earlier, and even some extra ones. I still believe this leaves P behind economically. Gotta see if this build has some kind of a timing window exploitable by mass hydras due to P not having enough Gateways early on...
EDIT: Watching the vs. Lz replay now. 7:30? At that point you have like 8-10 hydras per base, I don't think the attack can do much if you scout it in time and get some Hydras from your other base as well. Lz's macro was pretty bad that game. :/
On August 15 2009 09:38 Shikyo wrote: Hmm I tested, with Zerg after overpool I'll have 4 hydras and a sunken at both expos at 7:10. Adding my initial 6-12 lings, I don't think this should be much of a problem. If it arrives at my base at exactly 7:00, I'll only have about 2 hydras and a sunken per expo, but I don't think it was that early?
EDIT: But my den finishes at like 35 supply and I only started making hydras around 42 supply. If one scouts this build, starting to make Hydras earlier should easily be able to deflect it.
That's correct for the +1 speedlot push, but the point of that isn't necessarily to kill so much as to force defense and earlier hydras, with a stronger followup than a typical build like this, while still retaining the potential to kill a greedy zerg.
The other build arrives around 7:15 and is designed to force lings and is done off one gateway and is typically unscoutable, but can't actually kill a zerg (it's 5 or 6 normal zeals with no +1).
Btw, about the natural gas - the actual build Violet uses takes it when leg speed is researched, however I find that somewhat unforgiving and have taken to cutting an additional round of probes to get it somewhat earlier.
On August 15 2009 08:44 fanatacist wrote: Damn Nevuk, you writing featured strat forum posts now? And to think I smashed you brutally and gave you your first tips not too long ago... Good job (:
I didn't think this was featured . Oo.
If it hits at 7:15 with 5 zealots, I will not need to make any more hydras than I normally would; I'll still have about 5 hydras and a sunken in each base. If the zealots have no speed and I have some lings outside his base to see when he moves out, it's no problem to micro against them... I don't think that this build is able to force much extra defense at all, unless the Zerg doesn't get that one sunken... but in that case he'll have some more hydras out by then.
The other build, though... might be more troublesome. Still, with the probe cutting and the reduced production capability, it still should leave the Z ahead. Z will have a total of about 12 lings in addition to those 4 or so Hydras, and should easily be able to defend. Even with 6 or 8 lings it should be possible to defend, given the sunken and the fact that you can get Hydras from the other base and also the fact that you'll have like a 2 hatchery pump at your third for reinforcements. I guess it works if the Z has bad macro and doesn't get Hydras out in time... I'm not sure how the build is supposed to be done exactly, but my den finishes before my spire when I do it. As in:
overpool 11h 14h 13g 16overlord 18lair 22overlord ~30 spire 35 hatch+overlord(you get the larva for the overlord a bit after you get 300 minerals for hatch) 35 hatch 35 den 35 nat gas
Den finishes a few seconds before spire. So if you scout that kind of an opening all you need to do is just start getting Hydras slightly earlier, starting at about 38 supply as opposed to about 42. After you have enough to hold the attack off, they won't be pressuring anytime soon and you can get the drones you missed earlier, and even some extra ones. I still believe this leaves P behind economically. Gotta see if this build has some kind of a timing window exploitable by mass hydras due to P not having enough Gateways early on...
EDIT: Watching the vs. Lz replay now. 7:30? At that point you have like 8-10 hydras per base, I don't think the attack can do much if you scout it in time and get some Hydras from your other base as well. Lz's macro was pretty bad that game. :/
This build also requires the Z to either delay themselves somehow or be delayed, note Lz's successful runby and Hyvaa's fail overpool speed. (Watch the Hyvaa game, it's a much better example of this window). Violet could also have attacked Lz at 6:44 that game and arrived at 7:16ish, but he delayed himself for some odd reason, which seems to have been an attacking pattern that he uses vs similar level zergs to convince them that he's just clearing lings so they won't make extra defense/scout that he's moving out. Denying Z scouting/faking them out is pretty crucial in either of these builds. It's much more effective vs nonoverpool openings, actually, because 12 hatch allows the toss get much earlier lots and 9 pool delays Z's third/hydra production by tons while the zeals aren't really that much later.
If you counter right after the attack, it is hard for a low level toss to hold it off, but the production off of 2 gateways (with an extra 2 added in the midst of the attack) can usually pull through, especially if they go dts. Not true of the sair/reaver build of course, because Reavers >>>> hydras so much that it's ridiculous. It's not a build quite like the regular +1 speedlot push because it does not really leave the P behind as much if it fails as long as it's still executed correctly, which can be very difficult. As Louder said, the reason foreigners don't use this as much is because it is a very unforgiving build, and requires the ability to place several buildings at once in the midst of an attack.The probes are still made, just delayed a bit, as I think someone pointed out in this thread. P is slightly behind economically but tech is actually faster than in the 4 gate 2 archon build.
Jangbi did this build last night, and this is the first time I've actually seen it with +1 in a progame.
Although Hoejja reacted to the fast +1 by going 3 hatch lurkers rather than spire, or at least I assume it was a reaction, since he started his lair before his 3rd hatch and gets his hydra den a little late, which still gave him his lurkers earlier than needed.
Btw, Violet went 25-6 in PvZ after transferring accounts on his iccup account at A level last month (So it was 25-6 vs A/A+ zergs). So using it on hoejja was likely a bad idea as he's probably practiced against it a billion times.
Fast lurkers are very hard to deal with with this build, moreso than fast mutas, because the lurks allow the z to turtle easier and the p has already sacrificed some economy and has later natural gas. Vs both I personally think massing sairs is required, as it prevents obs sniping/muta sniping, and allows for denying the Z from scouting your third going down much more successfully.
But yes, that's a text book example of this opening. Jangbi doesn't utilize the +1 lots fast enough for it to be useful, IMO. (He moves out 8 lots rather than 5 or 6, and this is almost too late for a normal opening). His choice to kill the OL by his base rather than scout with it was fatal, as it prevented him from scouting the lurkers morphing, and his reaction after scouting lurks was strange.
Excellent post there. The early harass should be able to throw off people, and I've always been partial to dark archons since they're barely ever used D:
My only concern is with the heavy micro- my micro plainly sucks. But a good strategy overall.
EPT
