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I was playing a Zerg today on Destination, and I decided to try something different. Now I know that this strat. has probably been tried already, but I was trying it out for myself for the first time.
I built up around three vultures and mined up the place outside the bridge, just as the Zerg became to attack with a sizable force (12-15 lings, 4 hydras, 7 lurks). Now usually, with that many lurkers, he would've broken my natural, but with 9 mines outside, it wiped out half of his forces.
So here's my question. This is the build order I used (or at least as close as I'm going to get):
9 supply
11 rax (pump rines)
14 supply
19 refinery and academy (rines and meds)
20 supply
22 expo (? maybe I did ?)
23 fax (and shop)
Proceed to upgrade mines and pump out vults.
^ Not 100% accurate.
Would pumping out vultures instead of tanks in early to mid game (and even late game) be a viable alternative? Instead of 3 hits to kill a lurker, mines would 1 (or 2 hit if Lurks are upgraded) hit kill and have a nice blast radius.
I won the game, so I was having some nice feelings about vultures. =P
Give me a thought please. =D
Zergneedsfood
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They're awesome vs lurk openings to stop their first wave, but after that, you can't use them to attack like you could with tanks. Also, if they see them, and they're careful, they can difuse them by sacrifising 2-3 lings.
The thing is, entering mid game you want to start pressuring the zerg, so vults/mines are not that useful with that.
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Vultures for late game are useful considering mech uses heavy gas but not as much minerals but would not be the staple unit for your army composition since goliaths are stronger against lings and tanks against heavy units like ultralisks, hydras, etc. and goliath has strong anti air against too (Assuming critical mass) A round of vultures before 2 rounds of normal macro would be useful to maintain map control, harass and mobility. 
Most mech builds start vultures before going goliaths instead of tanks actually to counter muta harass UNLESS theres no transition to muta which is improbable. Then tanks + vultures would be a good composition for a while at least.
Some tanks will be required required cause hydra > vultures in terms of damage and speed overlord counters the mines. You need tanks to keep them back from slowly clearing the mines and saying I KNOW YOU'RE COMING AND I WILL PUNISH YOU IF YOU DARE TO. yada yada lol. Just my 2 cents.
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look at it this way- hydras > vults
Vults are never used as a fighting unit. frankly they are terrible at it. the only thing that vults are amazing it is killing drones and zerglings. mass mine is a bad idea because range upgraded hydra can snipe mines with out an overlord. You need the tanks to take care of the dra, and in a mass vult vs mass hydra battle you would simply be out DPS and get run over. use vults in the early game, but make sure you tech and start making tanks in the mid.
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I'm a complete noob so really I'm just fishing for help here, but I hate mines. Mines are really, really good. If I go Hydra with speed Overlords to snipe them, or try to drag them with Lings, the tanks that are surely nearby just kill me. Mines + Tanks mean I can't attack. Plus, when I finally get to awesome late game Zerg units (pretty much the reason I'm Zerg), Ultras and Defilers get dominated by those damn minefields. As a Zerg, how do I get over this? Vultures are so ridiculously cheap and mines are so good.
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I think he's talking about getting vultures with mines to support a m&m army, so it would be good for your opponent to go hydras as m&m>>hydras.
Seems like this could work/be useful but the danger is that mines can rape you just has hard as the zerg. A few good mine drags and say goodbye to your army. Watch Flash vs GGplay (i think) on Plasma to see the dangers of going mines with m&m.
Edit: flash went a weird mech build that game, but he still got owned by his own mines.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Vultures pretty much play two functions in TvZ.
- The first and most common is that of drone-harass. Vultures are useful if your opponent has built mutalisks, because they can effectively contain the mutas by continuously putting pressure on the zerg's main. One sunken colony should never be enough to kill a speed-upgraded vulture runby.
- Against hydra/lurker builds, vultures should not stay in the game as long - they're effective at shutting down an early lurker push, but mid-game vultures are totally ineffective. However, most TvZs build a couple vultures before tanks. Vultures are dirt cheap, fast, and planting mines never hurts. The mines can limit late gate movement, and occasionally delay expos. They also act like free observers, if you position them well.
And there's a third, actually which is requires better control, but is really important. Vultures are a strong counter to dark swarm and ultras/ling. A minefield is a great addition to stim, and irradiate if you can get it down.
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I find vultures very useful throughout a TvZ game because,,,
1) they are a great meatshield for tanks, and this purpose makes them worth the cost alone (only 50% more than 1 marine) and they produce fast...
2) Mines...some times zerg will just try to walk hydras into your army and pick off your tanks, despite goliath fire (which is weak against ground)...mines, aside from tanks, are the most dangerous counter to this method as one or two mines can massacre a group of hydras
3) Map control: you can monitor zerg expansions as well as pick off drones. They can also rescue your far off expansions from late-game crackling detachments very quickly.
4) Saving the gas by replacing some goliath for vultures leaves more for valks and tanks...gas always seems to be the limiting resource in mech builds no?
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Instead of tanks in midgame? No, especially on destination.
It can be worth it if you get a factory right after cc to get mines vs 3 hatch openings. And if you get a factory before expanding you can get mines safely vs anything but 2 hatch hydra.
And your build order sounds awful, i mean what are you planning to do vs mutas? I dont think anyone gets lurkers in response to any kind of 1 base play from terran and your mines will be worthless when your first little mnm force is already containing him anyway.
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All I can say from my prety much unexisting experience is that mines own Zergs on D- level. Though my guess is they will rape you on any higher level. But on D- it works like a charm.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On July 15 2009 05:05 Holgerius wrote:All I can say from my prety much unexisting experience is that mines own Zergs on D- level. Though my guess is they will rape you on any higher level. But on D- it works like a charm.
Well yeah... but so does pretty much anything. Scouts probably.
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Cloud is right; this build would really only work if your opponent was stupid and tried to do a lurker opening against a meching Terran.
Against good Terrans, you will encounter a mutalisk build or a hydralisk build, both of which > vultures.
After the first like 6-8 minutes Zerg either won't need to worry about mines if he went mutas, or he will have spread out his ovies and gotten speed and range for hydras, as well as speed for ovies. You will need tanks to defend any type of decent push.
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vultures are great early game wise, late game not so [facts]
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I don't really think going vultures would be as beneficial as tanks, although may be producing 1 or 2 vults before starting tank production couldn't necessarily hurt =\.
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On July 15 2009 06:46 yu1000 wrote:
vultures are great early game wise, late game not so [facts]
huh? Every terran I know switches to SKTerran late game with dual starports, and uses their factories strictly to make vultures because they rape late game.
I don't see how you think they dont, when clearly they mess up zergs chances at darkswarming, due to defilers dieing soo easily to mines. They are also really good against ultralisks.
Saying they are not great late game is just wrong information.
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On Desti, I like to use Stylish's 8 rax into 2-fact build where he upgrades speed, followed by mines and then into expo/armory (it's in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86770).
I also like them late game because mines are nice against ultras and stuff, as has been said, although I tend to do 2 facts 1 port and pump tanks as opposed to 2 port SKTerran because I'm a pretty slow player and can't irradiate everything and micro my MnM and macro like I need to.
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Best mines are the undetected mines in small corridors and sometimes large fields. Usually mines is like an ace card in the later game. If you opponent is not expecting them then they can be potentially crippling to their main army give you an opening to counter.
Personally if I get mines for some reason then I just use it initially and stop using them all together. It's pointless to use it once your opponent realizes it and starts doing things as to avoid losing his whole army accidentally.
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I find zergs have a really tough time with midgame mines even if I'm doing a mech build. Whenever you build a round of vultures might as well mine the hell up. Get some map control and if they're not careful it can stop a timing push cold. And hey, they cost no gas too i find vulture so versatile in tvz
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On July 15 2009 00:49 Cloud wrote:
Instead of tanks in midgame? No, especially on destination.
It can be worth it if you get a factory right after cc to get mines vs 3 hatch openings. And if you get a factory before expanding you can get mines safely vs anything but 2 hatch hydra.
And your build order sounds awful, i mean what are you planning to do vs mutas? I dont think anyone gets lurkers in response to any kind of 1 base play from terran and your mines will be worthless when your first little mnm force is already containing him anyway.
Yeah....the build order itself is VERY inaccurate, but I know it's pretty awful....and bad. =( My biggest weakness has been defending Muta harass. For that particular game I wasn't worried because I knew he wasn't going mutas (I forgot how I knew), but for other games where the player does go Muta, I'm usually ready for it, but my micro is rather terrible against the better players.
I'm not the best player but I was just tossing around the idea. But I do seem to get the general trend of what everyone is thinking, so thanks everyone for the input. It was very helpful.
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Saying that hydras can with range shoot mines is dumb. You can lay triple mines down and at the right angle really mess some hydras up. Goons can easily shoot mines with their superior distance and tanks and vulture are just as good as hydras as far as speed. however, mines still go off on these units all the time.
Vultures are way better than tanks late game with defilers and ultras.(maybe the best unit.) Try and make sure his ovies stay clear of mines and youll be good. Btw, there's and opening on neo medusa and other mech friendly maps where you go 1 starport into m &m expansion. I think I saw boxer do it first but fantasy and Iloveoov have done it too. Im sure you could go 1 port wraith into vulture drop into valks in to expo into m&m with vults. Or you could skip the drop and try to get a runby or something. I like the idea of going 1 port wraith though. clear ovies from main and lay lots of mines for hydras. its even better if they go muta because youll be on one base with turrets and a valk (maybe a goliath or two.)
All in all, this is a micro(harass) oriented build. Its as good as your skill vs opponent allows it to be.
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EPT
