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Osaka27128 Posts
First let's set some ground rules ladies, this is a guide for D players only. If you sport the canary yellow, the viagra blue, or the snot green icons, get out now. This guide is for manly men who share in the brotherhood of blood-red D icons.
You know what I like about being a D player? You have the freedom to do whatever you want. Nobody is going to run you over for forgetting a depot for a minute, and your build order doesn't have to be a machine. There is room for error, which opens up a variety of fun builds.
Now then, to business. Recently I jumped on iCCup for the first time in a couple seasons. (Profile) I like to play all the races, but I dislike PvP. What do I find on iCCup? 95% protoss players being jerks. As a result, I thought I would refine my patented ManifestoCrusher, ie. tank bio build.
Purpose
The purpose of this build is to attack the protoss in a window where they have most likely just taken their natural expansion. Normal terran timing attacks work on this principle, but focus on the protoss' second expo. They also require you to FE yourself, which is lame and boring. It is also just a super fun build to play, and it requires bursts of intense micro.
Kind of a Build Order
I don't do numbers, watch the replays, but here is how I build things:
1. Build your depot, barrack, gas, and factory as normal. You can wall or not, I don't care. I scout pretty early, usually after depot, just to check for bullshit cheese.
2. Build two marines to rid your base of the scouting probe. Start your tank and siege together. + Show Spoiler [random note] +In lots of my replays I seem to be getting siege and then tank, there is no reason behind this except I don't want to forget later, or use my gas for bio stuff. I just get it out of the way.
3. With the scouting gone, drop your second barrack deep in your base. Follow that with the academy. While you are building the academy, build marines non-stop. I suggest rallying them away from your ramp so they are not so visible.
Starting the super secret buildings...
D+ Macro working overtime... don't forget depots please!
My troops, chilling out before war (and away from the ramp).
4. When the academy finishes, start stim and build three or four medics to go with your 8 to 10 marines. Continue building tanks as gas allows. Follow stim tech with range.
Moving out!
I move out at about 45 supply. I usually have had to cut a few scv here and there to get tech faster, but 45 gives you 12 or so MM and 3-4 tanks. By this time you have long since scouted his position, and you should consider sending out another scv ahead of the army to check where his goons are, by your choke or at his own choke.
If your army looks like this, you should be in good shape.
If they are by your choke, be careful! A user with good goon micro can bleed your MM all the way across the map. Lead with your tanks, but make sure your marines can sprint forward if he tries to target them. If you lose your tanks, you are dead.
You may encounter resistance in the middle of the map. Use your rines to chase them back, but send your rines back to your medics to heal. You have to keep them alive.
If his army is by his choke, he may have expanded very quickly, or he is guarding some kind of tech. Most players seem to be going reaver, which is ok for our build.
PROTIP! As you move out, reset the rally points of your barracks and factory to his choke. You will need instant backup, and a marine drip helps protect your tanks.
Hit the nexus if it is there, siege up the ramp if he is in his main. Might want to send an scv at this point too. Note the reinforcements automatically coming down the map.
Now what?
Now your goal is to exploit this window of time and force protoss into his main. If he has already dropped an expansion, then you want him to lose his army defending it, or have him retreat.
Someone get a mop, it's time to clean up!
If he has a reaver, kill the shuttle. Your tanks should be spread and sieged, and the marines should stim and attack the shuttle. Without the shuttle he cannot intercept your reinforcements or harass your basically undefended main.
Some Random Points
- A DT build kills this very very hard. If you have reason to suspect DT, go home and take your expansion. You will run out of scans.
- The first medics are to keep your first marines alive as they chase goons across the map. After the first batch, make straight marines from the barracks.
- Don't lose your tanks. You need them to scare the protoss guy.
- If your first attack does not win, don't despair. Continue to rally marines and tanks to reinforce. Retreating allows protoss to breathe, and they will probably win.
- If the contain/attack is prolonged, make another barrack and another factory with no add-on. Research mines and add some vultures into the mix. Do not give up on the marines. Don't forget range when your gas builds up again.
- +1 weapons take down shields like crazy. You need an ebay at some point (after you move out) so get it. Another option is to use your scouting probe to make an ebay close to the opponents main. Float is and you will save a scan. You will also draw his units toward home.
- Don't be a pussy and wait too long. If you wait his goon count will get too high and you won't have the firepower to stop it. 45 pop and go.
But Mani I need to expand!
No you don't. You can survive 8 minutes without dropping another CC. Obviously if you think you are not going to be able to crack his main, then expand. Otherwise, full steam ahead!
Conclusion and replays:
This build will get slaughtered at higher levels, but one of the great things about being D is you can try different stuff and still have a chance to win. Here are some replays and some comments about them. You can down load the whole pack or just one by one.
Full Pack
This was my first attempt, just free balling it.
This is a second, standard game on python where the build works as it should. It is also the game where I got the above screenshots.
This is a third standard game on python, where the build works.
This is a game on Collosseum that went a little bit longer, and shows a transition to vultures.
Another game on python, this time with a reaver backstab. This is a little longer than the others.
This is an example of the build on Medusa.
In this game on Katrina I took some early damage but stuck with it. Scanning his natural timing helped me man up and move out.
I lost this game as my opponent switched up to dts. That, combined with my t-rex claw control spelled gg for me.
I lost this game by losing my tanks due to poor positioning. If I hadn't been so greedy I could have done better.
This guy just raped me silly 
Any feedback is greatly appreciated, give it a try and post the results!
Enjoy! 
Question and Answer Time!
On July 07 2009 16:49 Wala.Revolution wrote:
Can't you fake an FE? Just pretend to move out with 4 (instead of 6) and no vulture to push the goons back.
Also keep in mind many tosses keep a probe in the corner of terran's nat to check for expo.
You absolutely can. It does, of course, depend on how close his goons are. You really really don't want him to get hasty and pick off the first tank.
On July 07 2009 22:17 Revabug wrote:
I don't think you need the ebay tbh, by the time DTs pop you'll probably have 2 scans which would give you time to throw it down.
Otherwise you can get a CC way earlier. If they went for reaver tech you can just quickly run your SCVs and they'll be forced to use their reaver very defensively, especially with marines stopping the shuttle from dropping units on the tanks.
This is really personal preference. I like floating an ebay over the protoss base because it is super fun and forces him to reposition his troops. If he ignores it you can land it and cause more havoc. Also, I really like +1 attack at the 8 minute mark or so. It helps keep the MM relevant.
As for the dts, I'm afraid I disagree with you. The smart protoss player will just send them one at a time at you, and after your second scan your push will get chopped to shreds. dts kill marines in one hit, and really suck the life out of this build.
On July 07 2009 22:57 meathook wrote:
P.P.S
I remember someone telling me that you were B-level terran at one point.. what happened, Mani?
I'm afraid your person was sadly misinformed. I am, and will always be, a D+ player who hobbles over the C- line occasionally. I don't play competitively of course, I just play for fun, and all races. Maybe if I get bionic hands and play only Terran I could get to C+.
On July 07 2009 22:57 unknown.sam wrote:
was this build inspired by the go.go game against bisu in OSL??
edit: i was wondering...this kind of build wouldn't work well where the positions are pretty far from each other like say on destination??
Nope, sorry, I have been doing this since before go.go was born. His was the deep six variant as well (something like what Testie used to do on Nostalgia all the time). However, I think FE is for babies, so I like this build.
Long travel distances suck. At D though, many protoss payers just run home, so it is fine. It is those players who micro their goons all the way back up the map that easily defeat this build.
On July 08 2009 01:20 d_so wrote:
do you add any upgrades?
i used to do this build as an off-speed kinda build and ive noticed early +1 armor really helps, especially if they switch to DT's (takes two hits to kill marines)
I do like upgrades, and next time I play I will try armour rather than attack 
On July 08 2009 02:52 Luddite wrote:
Isn't this build a fairly standard timing attack in tvz?
It used to be. See Goodfriend vs July in the OSL finals on Forte for a nice example. However, with modern mutas, this build dies pretty hard TvZ now. Once you lose the tank it is over, and mutas rape the reinforcements, which is such a huge part of making this work.
On July 08 2009 06:11 derbz wrote:
Y'know, I always thought rines should be used more in TvP. Way to be.
Wouldn't reavers kind of destroy this build, though? I get that the shuttle would be taken down easily but reavers>marines.
Yep, reavers suck. This build is awesome against zealot/goon, but a reaver leaves a lot of challenges. If you watch the replays though, the majority of the games the protoss goes for a reaver. If he has above average micro with shuttle / reaver, you probably won't win. But at D, it evens out. Having an scv along for a turret or two really helps limit the mobility of the shuttle ad protects your tanks.
Take a look at the replay though, I managed to win vs reaver every time I think.
On July 08 2009 08:56 generic88 wrote:
I have a question. Terran infantry seems to be a lot weaker than mech in many regards. (Tons of counters, Goon Micro, Reaver, DT, HT. More APM required due to their fragility and large numbers). Are there any advantages or strengths that infantry has over mech?
Well, yes and no. Vultures die very quickly to dragoons, and they do nothing vs a reaver. MM can heal itself, take a similar number of hits, and kill observers / shuttles. In addition, the rate of fire of 10 stimmed marines compared to 6 vultures or so is incredible. Marines pour out a lot more damage.
For this build I don't consider HT to be a counter because it takes too long to get. Goon micro is kind of a counter, but it still forces them back, which is the point of this build. You want to get your tanks in position.
But it is surprising, and it is an early attack. The main reason to do it? It is fun!
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Can't you fake an FE? Just pretend to move out with 4 (instead of 6) and no vulture to push the goons back.
Also keep in mind many tosses keep a probe in the corner of terran's nat to check for expo.
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Germany2762 Posts
nice guide my fellow D-brother!
this is exactly the stuff i'm looking for. and because i just switched to terran a few days ago, i'll definitly give this a try. sounds fun
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how many times did you have to play in order to get the red terran spawn for your screenshots? also, bunkers hurt. alot.
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I always knew real men played terran!
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51373 Posts
here is my variation, 1fac FE into 2fac tank/6 rax (known as deep six)
works really well imo
although i cant believe that guy was d+
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
I hate you T.T
plz don't ban me
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Osaka27128 Posts
On July 07 2009 17:43 Clasic wrote:
I hate you T.T
plz don't ban me again
fixed. anyone of these games your aka? ^^
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I remember you doing this build against Fakesteve in the bet for his post count versus the cd and I know for sure you did it last game on rh3 and won with it. Mani Fighting!
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I've been going 1fac, get tank, take expo, cut SCVs, add 4 barracks, move out with 3 tanks and 2 groups of MnM at ~44 supply. Works wonders because it looks like a regular build, hits before reavers pop/observers come to your base unless the protoss does obs before expo, then he'll be behind on gates anyway. Used it alot on god's because you can take the expo above the ramp, siege 2 tank ontop of the ramp then hide the rest of your dudes.
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I really like this build when I used to use it. Fun build overall, although it tends to be weak vs reaver or DT openings. I think an important thing is to push out with 6 rines and your first tank to fake FD, although a 2 gate or even a 1 gate ranged goon opening might be able to pick off some rines.
A variation of the build that I use is a pure marine medic build which seems really strong as well. Mostly I wing it, but it opens something standard with a wall in. So, 9 depot 11 rax. Delay your gas a bit, and get gas on 13, and start your ebay at the same time. when your ebay is done you'll have more or less exactly 100 gas, start +1 armor, and take 2 SCVs off gas. Then start academy and 2 rax at roughly the same time around 21~22 supply. Academy first, then raxes, cutting SCVs now to get these buildings up.
When academy is like half done put SCVs back on gas, so you can have a good amount when acad is up. when acad is done get stim, and get 3 medics when gas allows, then add a scanner, and pump marines. stim and +1 armor should finish about the same time, so push out when they're done, and you've about 15 marines and 3 medics. The +1 armor makes DTs take 2 hits to kill you, and goons, 5 hits. Now you have the option of expanding or adding a factory depending on what build he did. Generally, reaver = factory, any goon -> expo build, expand (your marine medics should be able to push him back up the ramp, and force a cancel on the expo).
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On July 07 2009 16:38 Manifesto7 wrote:
This guide is for manly men who share in the brotherhood of blood-red D icons.
I have never felt better about being a D/D+ player, thanks mani!
And now, on to the reading!
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On July 07 2009 17:22 GTR wrote:here is my variation, 1fac FE into 2fac tank/6 rax (known as deep six) works really well imo although i cant believe that guy was d+
lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o
If it's a rush that is
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I don't think you need the ebay tbh, by the time DTs pop you'll probably have 2 scans which would give you time to throw it down.
Otherwise you can get a CC way earlier. If they went for reaver tech you can just quickly run your SCVs and they'll be forced to use their reaver very defensively, especially with marines stopping the shuttle from dropping units on the tanks.
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Nice 
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I have been using a variation of this build for a while now.. it works well on D, if you are surreptitious.
However, I like the Nada-style FD with more marines and a medic better as I find it to be less all-in. Because, as you said in OP, this is very easily countered by DTs.
If you are successful with the push and he does not leave the game, a funny follow-up is the 7 firebat+medic drop on his main Nexus while he is dealing with your contain.
P.S.
115 apm fighting!
P.P.S
I remember someone telling me that you were B-level terran at one point.. what happened, Mani?
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was this build inspired by the go.go game against bisu in OSL??
edit: i was wondering...this kind of build wouldn't work well where the positions are pretty far from each other like say on destination??
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do you add any upgrades?
i used to do this build as an off-speed kinda build and ive noticed early +1 armor really helps, especially if they switch to DT's (takes two hits to kill marines)
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Way more fun than the mechanized builds. It makes me sad bio-builds aren't more viable. I <3 U.
What's next? Using it on Terran players of course!
PS:
Does anyone know what build Hwasin used against Bisu on Outsider where he went with a mostly mechanized build save for a small group of MnM he used to ward off shuttles and then load into bunkers after his contain went up?
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Excellent mani I love that you included many pictures. 
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Isn't this build a fairly standard timing attack in tvz?
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haha this post is seriously epic.
Had me laughing the whole way through and now I know how to counter this build should I encounter it :D
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On July 07 2009 21:42 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 17:22 GTR wrote:here is my variation, 1fac FE into 2fac tank/6 rax (known as deep six) works really well imo although i cant believe that guy was d+ lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o If it's a rush that is
he might have bad macro give him slack this is a D section ffs
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lol
This build was the exact way I first learned to TvZ a couple years ago ^.^ Gonna have to try it out vs those silly Toss players.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Did you add this to Liquipedia manifesto?
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You know what I like about being a D player? You have the freedom to do whatever you want. Nobody is going to run you over for forgetting a depot for a minute, and your build order doesn't have to be a machine. There is room for error, which opens up a variety of fun builds.
QFT
For thus of us who still play for the fun of it (with a little bit of competitive gaming ofc)
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On July 08 2009 04:42 Plexa wrote:
Did you add this to Liquipedia manifesto?
=D thx for this BO and liquipedia pals
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ooo someone on USEast used this build on me when I was playing as Protoss. My goons micro sucks so it totally raped me =D
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Y'know, I always thought rines should be used more in TvP. Way to be.
Wouldn't reavers kind of destroy this build, though? I get that the shuttle would be taken down easily but reavers>marines.
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Omg i got owned by this on colloseum. He took cliff and raped all my goonz
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On July 08 2009 06:11 derbz wrote:
Y'know, I always thought rines should be used more in TvP. Way to be.
Wouldn't reavers kind of destroy this build, though? I get that the shuttle would be taken down easily but reavers>marines.
Tanks > Reavers
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I have a question. Terran infantry seems to be a lot weaker than mech in many regards. (Tons of counters, Goon Micro, Reaver, DT, HT. More APM required due to their fragility and large numbers). Are there any advantages or strengths that infantry has over mech?
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On July 08 2009 08:56 generic88 wrote:
I have a question. Terran infantry seems to be a lot weaker than mech in many regards. (Tons of counters, Goon Micro, Reaver, DT, HT. More APM required due to their fragility and large numbers). Are there any advantages or strengths that infantry has over mech?
Taking opponent by surprise. If you catch your opponent when they arent expecting mnm and dont have a large army to do enough damage through the medics you can roll over them.
That build is a lot different but it shows the power of marine/medic when used correctly. This build is going for the surprise and rush factor, which is the only way for mnm to work against protoss. If a protoss knows you are going this you are screwed simply because he'll mass up units instead of high tech/expanding.
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Osaka27128 Posts
Question and Answer Time!
On July 07 2009 16:49 Wala.Revolution wrote:
Can't you fake an FE? Just pretend to move out with 4 (instead of 6) and no vulture to push the goons back.
Also keep in mind many tosses keep a probe in the corner of terran's nat to check for expo.
You absolutely can. It does, of course, depend on how close his goons are. You really really don't want him to get hasty and pick off the first tank.
On July 07 2009 22:17 Revabug wrote:
I don't think you need the ebay tbh, by the time DTs pop you'll probably have 2 scans which would give you time to throw it down.
Otherwise you can get a CC way earlier. If they went for reaver tech you can just quickly run your SCVs and they'll be forced to use their reaver very defensively, especially with marines stopping the shuttle from dropping units on the tanks.
This is really personal preference. I like floating an ebay over the protoss base because it is super fun and forces him to reposition his troops. If he ignores it you can land it and cause more havoc. Also, I really like +1 attack at the 8 minute mark or so. It helps keep the MM relevant.
As for the dts, I'm afraid I disagree with you. The smart protoss player will just send them one at a time at you, and after your second scan your push will get chopped to shreds. dts kill marines in one hit, and really suck the life out of this build.
On July 07 2009 22:57 meathook wrote:
P.P.S
I remember someone telling me that you were B-level terran at one point.. what happened, Mani?
I'm afraid your person was sadly misinformed. I am, and will always be, a D+ player who hobbles over the C- line occasionally. I don't play competitively of course, I just play for fun, and all races. Maybe if I get bionic hands and play only Terran I could get to C+.
On July 07 2009 22:57 unknown.sam wrote:
was this build inspired by the go.go game against bisu in OSL??
edit: i was wondering...this kind of build wouldn't work well where the positions are pretty far from each other like say on destination??
Nope, sorry, I have been doing this since before go.go was born. His was the deep six variant as well (something like what Testie used to do on Nostalgia all the time). However, I think FE is for babies, so I like this build.
Long travel distances suck. At D though, many protoss payers just run home, so it is fine. It is those players who micro their goons all the way back up the map that easily defeat this build.
On July 08 2009 01:20 d_so wrote:
do you add any upgrades?
i used to do this build as an off-speed kinda build and ive noticed early +1 armor really helps, especially if they switch to DT's (takes two hits to kill marines)
I do like upgrades, and next time I play I will try armour rather than attack
On July 08 2009 02:52 Luddite wrote:
Isn't this build a fairly standard timing attack in tvz?
It used to be. See Goodfriend vs July in the OSL finals on Forte for a nice example. However, with modern mutas, this build dies pretty hard TvZ now. Once you lose the tank it is over, and mutas rape the reinforcements, which is such a huge part of making this work.
On July 08 2009 06:11 derbz wrote:
Y'know, I always thought rines should be used more in TvP. Way to be.
Wouldn't reavers kind of destroy this build, though? I get that the shuttle would be taken down easily but reavers>marines.
Yep, reavers suck. This build is awesome against zealot/goon, but a reaver leaves a lot of challenges. If you watch the replays though, the majority of the games the protoss goes for a reaver. If he has above average micro with shuttle / reaver, you probably won't win. But at D, it evens out. Having an scv along for a turret or two really helps limit the mobility of the shuttle ad protects your tanks.
Take a look at the replay though, I managed to win vs reaver every time I think.
On July 08 2009 08:56 generic88 wrote:
I have a question. Terran infantry seems to be a lot weaker than mech in many regards. (Tons of counters, Goon Micro, Reaver, DT, HT. More APM required due to their fragility and large numbers). Are there any advantages or strengths that infantry has over mech?
Well, yes and no. Vultures die very quickly to dragoons, and they do nothing vs a reaver. MM can heal itself, take a similar number of hits, and kill observers / shuttles. In addition, the rate of fire of 10 stimmed marines compared to 6 vultures or so is incredible. Marines pour out a lot more damage.
For this build I don't consider HT to be a counter because it takes too long to get. Goon micro is kind of a counter, but it still forces them back, which is the point of this build. You want to get your tanks in position.
But it is surprising, and it is an early attack. The main reason to do it? It is fun!
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manlifestocrusher! gg
I'd like to try this, but I play protoss.
still, offracing is fun in the D levels
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LOL I gotta try this build sometime
Hooray for D+ MANLY Terrans!!
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On July 08 2009 07:32 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 21:42 Zoler wrote:On July 07 2009 17:22 GTR wrote:here is my variation, 1fac FE into 2fac tank/6 rax (known as deep six) works really well imo although i cant believe that guy was d+ lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o If it's a rush that is lol, no. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9269_fOrGG_vs_Kal/vod
"If it's a rush that is"
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On July 08 2009 10:18 Zoler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 07:32 koreasilver wrote:On July 07 2009 21:42 Zoler wrote:On July 07 2009 17:22 GTR wrote:here is my variation, 1fac FE into 2fac tank/6 rax (known as deep six) works really well imo although i cant believe that guy was d+ lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o If it's a rush that is lol, no. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/9269_fOrGG_vs_Kal/vod "If it's a rush that is"
Not once did GTR say that his variation was a rush.
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Osaka27128 Posts
lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o
If it's a rush that is
Can an FE build be a rush?
GTR's replay is hilariously awesome. The guy goes 3 gate goon before range, and twice runs his goon army through a mine field with no observers into tanks on colo. He then proceeds to say "wow I hate terran". Pure D level power there.
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Could this build be modified to go for a Quick Dropship? Would that ever be a good idea?
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Osaka27128 Posts
On a map like python, a protoss who has lost control of his natural but has a robo bay will often take the island expansion. Adding a starport and dropping that expansion quickly is a positive response. You just need to be wary about your own expansion at that point in the game.
As another above poster said, following this up with a 7 bat/medic drop as a probe raid is very very fun too
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51373 Posts
On July 08 2009 10:27 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o
If it's a rush that is Can an FE build be a rush? GTR's replay is hilariously awesome. The guy goes 3 gate goon before range, and twice runs his goon army through a mine field with no observers into tanks on colo. He then proceeds to say "wow I hate terran". Pure D level power there.
which amazes me even more that he is d+
protoss power everyone.
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This build is the t equivalent of the stove.
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On July 08 2009 15:21 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 10:27 Manifesto7 wrote:lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o
If it's a rush that is Can an FE build be a rush? GTR's replay is hilariously awesome. The guy goes 3 gate goon before range, and twice runs his goon army through a mine field with no observers into tanks on colo. He then proceeds to say "wow I hate terran". Pure D level power there. which amazes me even more that he is d+protoss power everyone.
oh god that makes me sick...
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On July 08 2009 16:57 dekuschrub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 15:21 GTR wrote:On July 08 2009 10:27 Manifesto7 wrote:lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o
If it's a rush that is Can an FE build be a rush? GTR's replay is hilariously awesome. The guy goes 3 gate goon before range, and twice runs his goon army through a mine field with no observers into tanks on colo. He then proceeds to say "wow I hate terran". Pure D level power there. which amazes me even more that he is d+protoss power everyone. oh god that makes me sick...
Pretty sure most people (who have played iccup before) can get to D+ with protoss by proxy 2-gating on 2-player maps in about 3 hours.
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On July 08 2009 16:57 dekuschrub wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 15:21 GTR wrote:On July 08 2009 10:27 Manifesto7 wrote:lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o
If it's a rush that is Can an FE build be a rush? GTR's replay is hilariously awesome. The guy goes 3 gate goon before range, and twice runs his goon army through a mine field with no observers into tanks on colo. He then proceeds to say "wow I hate terran". Pure D level power there. which amazes me even more that he is d+protoss power everyone. oh god that makes me sick...
Yeah.. he probably plays that build only. 3 gateway before expo can catch alot of terrans off guard and you dont really need to micro or anything when you play that.
But really, I am not amazed.. Unlike Terran and Zerg, the standards for Toss players are substantially lower. I have seen such fags reach C- with barely 100 apm when playing toss and doing just gay builds like that one or speed zealot rush. It is disgusting.
Loving the lack of gg from GTR in that replay. Hahaha...
On July 08 2009 09:47 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 22:57 meathook wrote:
P.P.S
I remember someone telling me that you were B-level terran at one point.. what happened, Mani? I'm afraid your person was sadly misinformed. I am, and will always be, a D+ player who hobbles over the C- line occasionally. I don't play competitively of course, I just play for fun, and all races. Maybe if I get bionic hands and play only Terran I could get to C+.
I think it was Nyovne who said that, actually. You should look into that bionic hand surgery then!
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reavers/dt's could crush the build.. even good goon micro can stop it.. wtf +1 weapons that takes too long.. for me this is d-/d guide.
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On July 08 2009 10:27 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +lol you can only support 2 fac / 4 rax from FE and you say 6 raxes o_o
If it's a rush that is Can an FE build be a rush? GTR's replay is hilariously awesome. The guy goes 3 gate goon before range, and twice runs his goon army through a mine field with no observers into tanks on colo. He then proceeds to say "wow I hate terran". Pure D level power there.
Well, if you know he's not making dts you can skip ebay and you can add the barracks way earlier than ForGG did. But then you add them before your second fact and you can only build 4 rax. This is a much faster attack (with 2-3 tanks 1 group marine 2-3 medic)
But yeah it's not the same build at all I'm sorry I'm just talking nonsense ^^
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On July 09 2009 00:24 Stimpacked wrote:
reavers/dt's could crush the build.. even good goon micro can stop it.. wtf +1 weapons that takes too long.. for me this is d-/d guide.
I wouldn't say D/D- but I agree that +1 weapon / armor just takes too long and is just too expensive / not needed for an attack such as this.
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If the primary reason Bio is non-viable past early game in TvP is High Templar Psionic Storm why not transition into a 50/50 or 60/40 Mech/Bio. I know, I know, but hear me out for a second. Then play a standard Vulture/Tank game except place your MnM directly behind your Tank line. This way they would be safe from Storm and could pick apart any damaged Zealots which make it to the Tank line while simultaneously nullifying Shuttle drops (perhaps maybe also being used to snipe Observers). Yes, you'd have less Vultures and thus less mines, but in Standard play most mines are "wasted" anyway because they are destroyed by splash damage from other mines.
Visual Aide:
X = Mine
V = Vulture
T = Tank
M = MnM
X V TM
X V TM
X V TM
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Osaka27128 Posts
On July 09 2009 00:24 Stimpacked wrote:
reavers/dt's could crush the build.. even good goon micro can stop it.. wtf +1 weapons that takes too long.. for me this is d-/d guide.
Apparently your reading comprehension is D-, as I clearly state that the upgrades are in the event of a longer game, in order to keep the bionic units relevant. Nowhere does it state that you have to wait for it to finish before the first attack.
And if you had bothered to watch any of the replays, you would see how easy it is to take care of D+ reavers.
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Osaka27128 Posts
On July 10 2009 12:45 generic88 wrote:
If the primary reason Bio is non-viable past early game in TvP is High Templar Psionic Storm why not transition into a 50/50 or 60/40 Mech/Bio. I know, I know, but hear me out for a second. Then play a standard Vulture/Tank game except place your MnM directly behind your Tank line. This way they would be safe from Storm and could pick apart any damaged Zealots which made it to the Tank line while simultaneously nullifying Shuttle drops (perhaps maybe also being used to snipe Observers). Yes, you'd have less Vultures and thus less mines, but in Standard play most mines are "wasted" anyway because they are destroyed by splash damage from other mines.
Visual Aide:
X = Mine
V = Vulture
T = Tank
M = MnM
X V TM
X V TM
X V TM
Yep, absolutely. If you see the game on Colosseum that I uploaded, I make a nice transition to vultures and mines, while guarding tanks with bionic units. It works very well, especially with shuttle bombs.
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Osaka27128 Posts
Show nested quote +On July 08 2009 09:47 Manifesto7 wrote:On July 07 2009 22:57 meathook wrote:
P.P.S
I remember someone telling me that you were B-level terran at one point.. what happened, Mani? I'm afraid your person was sadly misinformed. I am, and will always be, a D+ player who hobbles over the C- line occasionally. I don't play competitively of course, I just play for fun, and all races. Maybe if I get bionic hands and play only Terran I could get to C+. I think it was Nyovne who said that, actually. You should look into that bionic hand surgery then!
Perhaps Nyvone just sees my untapped potential. B- here I come!
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Well I've been trying this and I seem to have success when my opponent has similar APM to myself (I'm around 100-110), even sometimes winning when they have 50-70 more. Ya, I know "APM don't mean squat", but it does if the guy has 200 and it isn't spam.
MnM can also snipe enemy Nexus very, very quickly, Much faster than I thought they could.
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as a proud member of the bloodred iccup crowd, i approve of any strats that beat protoss! 5/5 cups of appreciation tea.
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ROFL MANLIFESTO CRUSHER
awesome build, but seriously you only need BBS when in the bloodred zone.
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On July 14 2009 22:12 tobi9999 wrote:
ROFL MANLIFESTO CRUSHER
awesome build, but seriously you only need BBS when in the bloodred zone.
some of usdon't like to smell when we play
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On July 14 2009 22:41 StorrZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On July 14 2009 22:12 tobi9999 wrote:
ROFL MANLIFESTO CRUSHER
awesome build, but seriously you only need BBS when in the bloodred zone. some of usdon't like to smell when we play
wat
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Well, not that APM has a 100% correlation to skill, but as a 250 APM D- Terran, I will use this if I start playing against tosses.
A toss with 400 points defeated me on bluestorm.
My 1:1 is a joke. ~_~
I can't imagine why a well-refined bionic build wouldn't work in the hands of a courageous Terran player, assuming the timing attack is worked down to extremely high levels of accuracy.
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Osaka27128 Posts
How on earth are you D- with 250 APM. What are you doing with it all? I'm not trying to be rude, but I almost never top 115.
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Yea that's pretty incredible. Whats your eapm (effective apm)? Google seach bwrepinfo and download that to find out. Maybe you do a ton of pointless actions.
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I think he just holds down the 1 key at the start to get 2000+ apm and just cruises from there on.
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looks like youve got quite an influence mani, terrans have been trying this to me quite often recently. However i'm an agressive player, and the crusher gets crushed by dblgate goon with goons rallied infront of terran's nat.
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Osaka27128 Posts
You, sir, are obviously not a D protoss :p
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im D+ >_< fucking koreans/smurfs/koreans.
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"If you look like this, youre in good shape"
I wouldnt agree with that, if the P has ANY idea what he is doing he will have his goons at your choke and will micro back, so when you stim and move forward your tanks fall back and the toss can just hold position and then move back. Also if you do this slightly wrong and get scouted he will get speed lotz or a reaver and destroy you. BTW i think i played you on a smurf account and you tried this, I did what i said above and just added gates speedlotz and took 2 expos. the game was over in 14 minutes or so, i even made a Pylon heart in the bottom left of Destination, by the third expo.
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If the Protoss micros his goons you simply have to micro your Tank/Marine combo against it.
It isn't too hard and it is do-able, you just have to pay attention and micro.
Attack Dragoons with Tanks first, as soon as your Tanks get a shot off or the Dragoons start to move forward, move your tanks back and your MnM forward to intercept. Shoot the Dragoons with the tanks again from behind the MnM line, if the Dragoons focus on them, otherwise keep moving your tanks back and let the MnM do the damage.
Rinse and Repeat.
Tank/Bio is actually quite effective against Protoss in the early game, even the mid-game if he goes for Reaver Tech. Once he gets Storm however, it's GG.
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Well, thanks mani. I just played against this on iccup and it was an easy win, although the timing was terrible. I think he pushed out sometime around 7 minutes, and i actually managed to kill him before my shitty internet dropped me like it always does. Basically it was nearly 2 control groups of goons/zeals + 1 or 2 templars vs. some mnm's and 3 tanks. Maybe the guy was just terrible, or maybe 2gate counters this. Who knows.
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On July 16 2009 00:41 generic88 wrote:
If the Protoss micros his goons you simply have to micro your Tank/Marine combo against it.
It isn't too hard and it is do-able, you just have to pay attention and micro.
Attack Dragoons with Tanks first, as soon as your Tanks get a shot off or the Dragoons start to move forward, move your tanks back and your MnM forward to intercept. Shoot the Dragoons with the tanks again from behind the MnM line, if the Dragoons focus on them, otherwise keep moving your tanks back and let the MnM do the damage.
Rinse and Repeat.
Tank/Bio is actually quite effective against Protoss in the early game, even the mid-game if he goes for Reaver Tech. Once he gets Storm however, it's GG.
uh any decent toss player will just pick off your m&m instead of aiming for the tanks.
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Osaka27128 Posts
In order to pick off the MM in one shot though, he would have to focus fire. That is beyond the abilities of most D+ protoss players. Losing your first tanks devastates this build more than losing the first marines though.
Yesterday I miss-microed terribly, lost my first tanks, and got run over by scouts
On July 15 2009 23:15 GreEny K wrote:
"If you look like this, youre in good shape"
I wouldnt agree with that, if the P has ANY idea what he is doing he will have his goons at your choke and will micro back, so when you stim and move forward your tanks fall back and the toss can just hold position and then move back. Also if you do this slightly wrong and get scouted he will get speed lotz or a reaver and destroy you. BTW i think i played you on a smurf account and you tried this, I did what i said above and just added gates speedlotz and took 2 expos. the game was over in 14 minutes or so, i even made a Pylon heart in the bottom left of Destination, by the third expo.
Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, there are 100 things that beat this build. I know this very well. The point is to try a different build than one fac expo. It is an intense build, and fun win or lose. Pretty wimpy of you not to tell me who you were though. It isn't like I'm going to go and check my reps. I lose with this build probably 50% of the time.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
How does this build compare to 2 factory? I like to get double vult upgrades and abuse their speed & P's lack of observers (if they went fast expo).
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On July 15 2009 15:02 Manifesto7 wrote:
How on earth are you D- with 250 APM. What are you doing with it all? I'm not trying to be rude, but I almost never top 115.
My game-sense and discipline is like that of a retarded rabbit's. I'll defend things like probe harass/wall harass/ but I'll do dumb things like make my second CC, try to float it, and realize that I should've added more facts ASAP after 2nd CC is made, or I will try FD and fail miserably.
As I said, my 1:1 gamesense is garbage.
I play a bit of 2:2, so ofc my 1:1 will be nonsense.
http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5240/07152009214050.png
I am DawnOvHammer. I think Organdonor was my ally, and I think I lost that game really badly due to my own poor decision making. ~_~
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Osaka27128 Posts
I'd murder to have hands like that hahaha.
Well, good luck Hopefully your game sense comes around (but when it does don't play me please).
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On July 16 2009 13:50 Manifesto7 wrote:I'd murder to have hands like that hahaha. Well, good luck Hopefully your game sense comes around (but when it does don't play me please).
Thanks, and I'll keep this in mind. Kekek
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On July 16 2009 13:41 Thesecretaznman wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2009 15:02 Manifesto7 wrote:
How on earth are you D- with 250 APM. What are you doing with it all? I'm not trying to be rude, but I almost never top 115. My game-sense and discipline is like that of a retarded rabbit's. I'll defend things like probe harass/wall harass/ but I'll do dumb things like make my second CC, try to float it, and realize that I should've added more facts ASAP after 2nd CC is made, or I will try FD and fail miserably. As I said, my 1:1 gamesense is garbage. I play a bit of 2:2, so ofc my 1:1 will be nonsense. http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/5240/07152009214050.pngI am DawnOvHammer. I think Organdonor was my ally, and I think I lost that game really badly due to my own poor decision making. ~_~
300 apm 141 eapm, thats a lot of spam @_@
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
Well, it was only a 12 min game. His redundancy is probably lower in longer games.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 16 2009 13:50 Manifesto7 wrote:
I'd murder to have hands like that hahaha.
In order to acquire the hand of god, you must kill your best friend 
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On July 16 2009 14:04 infinity21 wrote:
Well, it was only a 12 min game. His redundancy is probably lower in longer games.
I actually keep spamming even in longer games. My useless APM will drop when my wrist explodes. The only kind of multitask I can do is move around my army of tanks/vultures into a thousand zealots, while macroing.
I can't control dropships well at all. TT
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141eapm is still pretty insane though for being D rank. I mean I've gotten to B rank (fuck I'm so god damn gosu) on the ICCUP ladder by bashing those koreans (progamers were my main victims of choice ofc) and I don't think I've ever had a game where my eapm was over 120.
(Yes I play protoss, fuck off.)
So at least you got the speed to be gosu. Now you just have to figure out what to do, and believe it or not, that is the easier part of playing sc. I mean, I bet mani knows as much about strategy and how you should play as semi-progamers, mechanics are the needed ingredient for many of us.
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When I first looked at the title, I thought it's just another person tired of doing mech/sk. Just use mnm and 2fact tanks against Z. But, it's TvP.
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Osaka27128 Posts
I agree, that was a hilariously bad game, and you stomped him completely. D rank terran powa!
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On July 17 2009 16:06 Jonoman92 wrote:
141eapm is still pretty insane though for being D rank. I mean I've gotten to B rank (fuck I'm so god damn gosu) on the ICCUP ladder by bashing those koreans (progamers were my main victims of choice ofc) and I don't think I've ever had a game where my eapm was over 120.
(Yes I play protoss, fuck off.)
So at least you got the speed to be gosu. Now you just have to figure out what to do, and believe it or not, that is the easier part of playing sc. I mean, I bet mani knows as much about strategy and how you should play as semi-progamers, mechanics are the needed ingredient for many of us.
Yea, I have the discipline of a crack a ferret, and I'm also focusing on 2:2 right now, so I probably won't try 1:1 for a good bit of time.
Even with 140 EAPM over 12 minutes, sometimes my macro fails totally if I'm in a bad situation/microing particularly hard for some reason, particularly when I have random partner.
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On July 16 2009 13:11 Manifesto7 wrote:In order to pick off the MM in one shot though, he would have to focus fire. That is beyond the abilities of most D+ protoss players. Losing your first tanks devastates this build more than losing the first marines though. Yesterday I miss-microed terribly, lost my first tanks, and got run over by scouts Show nested quote +On July 15 2009 23:15 GreEny K wrote:
"If you look like this, youre in good shape"
I wouldnt agree with that, if the P has ANY idea what he is doing he will have his goons at your choke and will micro back, so when you stim and move forward your tanks fall back and the toss can just hold position and then move back. Also if you do this slightly wrong and get scouted he will get speed lotz or a reaver and destroy you. BTW i think i played you on a smurf account and you tried this, I did what i said above and just added gates speedlotz and took 2 expos. the game was over in 14 minutes or so, i even made a Pylon heart in the bottom left of Destination, by the third expo. Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, there are 100 things that beat this build. I know this very well. The point is to try a different build than one fac expo. It is an intense build, and fun win or lose. Pretty wimpy of you not to tell me who you were though. It isn't like I'm going to go and check my reps. I lose with this build probably 50% of the time.
I was trace_the-ace, i wasnt trying to hide that i just didnt know you wanted it. Also this build is countered by MANY different responses as someone said earlier which is why i hate it. Im p and when i counter this (99% of the time) the terran always rage quits, always saying "who gets legs taht fast noob, if i did normal play i woulda raped you" and i think to myself, if you did normal play i wouldnt have gotten legs this fast retard... Not you in particular but a lot of noobs respond to loss with that false sense of security in themselves. And teh guy with the 300 apm and only 141 eapm is just lol. Since you can get that high apm try making them actually usefull and effective, I get 200 apm and the eapm is 190-195 depending on if im tired or not if i am i go 160 apm and the eapm is 150 mostly. Its not about speed its how you use it..... BUT SPEED HELPS!!
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This build seems to be getting fairly popular at the D+ level. I faced it 3-4 times in the ~20 PvTs I played. Whenever my probe scout is denied by a wall, I go super safe 2 gate obs before expo in case T goes 2 fact. But that gets raped by this build since the observers don't do anything and I've invested resources into robo+observatory.
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Osaka27128 Posts
On July 18 2009 04:54 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2009 13:11 Manifesto7 wrote:In order to pick off the MM in one shot though, he would have to focus fire. That is beyond the abilities of most D+ protoss players. Losing your first tanks devastates this build more than losing the first marines though. Yesterday I miss-microed terribly, lost my first tanks, and got run over by scouts On July 15 2009 23:15 GreEny K wrote:
"If you look like this, youre in good shape"
I wouldnt agree with that, if the P has ANY idea what he is doing he will have his goons at your choke and will micro back, so when you stim and move forward your tanks fall back and the toss can just hold position and then move back. Also if you do this slightly wrong and get scouted he will get speed lotz or a reaver and destroy you. BTW i think i played you on a smurf account and you tried this, I did what i said above and just added gates speedlotz and took 2 expos. the game was over in 14 minutes or so, i even made a Pylon heart in the bottom left of Destination, by the third expo. Just so nobody gets the wrong idea, there are 100 things that beat this build. I know this very well. The point is to try a different build than one fac expo. It is an intense build, and fun win or lose. Pretty wimpy of you not to tell me who you were though. It isn't like I'm going to go and check my reps. I lose with this build probably 50% of the time. I was trace_the-ace, i wasnt trying to hide that i just didnt know you wanted it. Also this build is countered by MANY different responses as someone said earlier which is why i hate it. Im p and when i counter this (99% of the time) the terran always rage quits, always saying "who gets legs taht fast noob, if i did normal play i woulda raped you" and i think to myself, if you did normal play i wouldnt have gotten legs this fast retard... Not you in particular but a lot of noobs respond to loss with that false sense of security in themselves. And teh guy with the 300 apm and only 141 eapm is just lol. Since you can get that high apm try making them actually usefull and effective, I get 200 apm and the eapm is 190-195 depending on if im tired or not if i am i go 160 apm and the eapm is 150 mostly. Its not about speed its how you use it..... BUT SPEED HELPS!!
Sorry, we never played. As I have said repeatedly, there are many counters to this build. The purpose is to enjoy playing BW in a different way. The people in your example aren't having a good time no matter what they try.
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Is EAPM the same as VAPM on BWchart?
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A more interesting build tvp in my opinion is going 14 cc and then add 2 rax and rush academy + range upgrade with 2 bunkers (to deal with goons - most p's tries to break you with range goons followed by dts). This also transists into m&m+tank but you have an amazingly good econ if you defend it and can usually overwhelm him with m&m before he has storm. Obviously it doesn't work well for D players, because it's extremely timing and micro intensive...
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On July 18 2009 21:38 gumbum8 wrote:
Is EAPM the same as VAPM on BWchart?
no
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This build can caught your enemy offguard pretty easily, but if you're opponents goes reaver/dt, you are screwed as fuck
My eapm is 100 or something like that and i've reached c+ pretty easily last season (PROTOSS POWA)
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I had this done to me in Highlander Luckily I went DT rush so my opponent alt_QQed the moment his scan went out. ^^ When i ran my dt's in i was quite suprised to see that many marines / tanks + medics that quick never saw it before. Then I found this thread.
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This build works surprisingly well hahaha
Thanks Mani!
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If vapm is not the same as eapm in BWchart is there a program that does tell you your eapm? Im assuming there is, can someone give me a link to a dl please. thanks.
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On July 07 2009 17:22 GTR wrote:here is my variation, 1fac FE into 2fac tank/6 rax (known as deep six) works really well imo although i cant believe that guy was d+
Deep 6 was more than just that though. You were also supposed to use drops, EMP, nukes, and ridiculously awkward defensive base building
Mani people usually use 3 rax for this build, I have seen it many times on ICCup vs good koreans. It's pretty rape if you dont' see it coming.
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On July 18 2009 22:31 Ilikestarcraft wrote:no
ok.
And where can you see your EAPM?
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This is a great build if your opponent doesn't see it coming, but it gets destroyed if they see it.
Denying scouting is a huge part of this build.
Really fun though!!! Nice write up
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Osaka27128 Posts
On July 22 2009 01:57 Louder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 07 2009 17:22 GTR wrote:here is my variation, 1fac FE into 2fac tank/6 rax (known as deep six) works really well imo although i cant believe that guy was d+ Deep 6 was more than just that though. You were also supposed to use drops, EMP, nukes, and ridiculously awkward defensive base building Mani people usually use 3 rax for this build, I have seen it many times on ICCup vs good koreans. It's pretty rape if you dont' see it coming.
Yeah I get all chicken though and get too many tanks (thus the D guide). I generally get the third rax much too late, making my first attack too vulnerable.
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Here's one of my funnier attempts.
The following is a 39:19 minute D rank TvP on Destination featuring Terran Infantry used throughout. As well as a couple nukes thrown in for fun.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=17472
If only I had faster fingers!
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I find that 12 nex is a very good counter to this. A while ago I went 12 nex every game to learn the BO and as long as I kept pumping dragoons off 2-3 gates, with a just a bit of micro this is pretty easy to fend off, after which I was massively ahead.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Manifesto7/biotankGuide/banner.png)
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