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[H] ZvT vs Fantasy Mech - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
April 29 2009 01:08 GMT
#21
So, I used to play against Fantasy Mech like 3 Hatch Muta except I just get hydras to deter the first vulture drop. But now, I used to play it like ZvP 3~4 Hatch Hydra, get Spire for scourge to kill valks and mass hydras. But, what I like about 3 Hatch Muta is that I can go harass his base for a time and double-expand. I can force him to do turrets too. Do I upgrade Air Carapace?
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
Drowsy
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
United States4876 Posts
April 29 2009 01:10 GMT
#22
On April 29 2009 09:50 AttackZerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 29 2009 09:22 Drowsy wrote:
It seems a hell of a lot harder on medusa and maps like it when they have the untouchable third. What pisses me off is that you pretty much have to wait around forever and ever and outlast them since attacking mech head on on medusa is total suicide and they've got minerals to last for a very long time. It seems like a lot of games I win pretty much every fight vs mech by a decent margin but then they macro up to 200/200 and we have 1 big clash where I lose the entire game. If they ever get and keep a 4th for a long time it doesn't seem like you can win at all.


It does seem like that.

A few notes about Terran economics in general that might help you to view the matchup differently.

1) assuming relatively fast expansion build, terran should run out of both natural and main minerals between 17 minutes and 21. It changes depending on builds and when they call it 'saturation' ect. This mean that the harder you engauge them while preparing a 'next level' wave of tech in mass the quicker you'll run them dry. I believe terran can max on mech 1 1/2 times off of 2 bases. So that is roughly 120-130 mech units. While with even drone saturation amount all bases zerg can have there main still mining at the 20 minute mark. So if you have 4 or 5 bases, you truely have them, while terran might be on a 'forth' but really be on 2 patches / 2 gas, just like at the start.

2) terran cannot afford enough gols and/or tanks at the same time to deal with pure hydra/ling or pure mutalisks, this includes if they get sci or valks. So your setup play (earlymidgame) is to tech in the way you want them to counter first. I like facing goliaths earlier before my huge economy picks up, so I tend to open 3 hat muta/scourge while droning very hard. This way when they do move out with 16-20 gols (if they do) then they will have at most 3-4 tanks. Some zergs do this in the reverse and force tanks -> use mutas in the earlymidgame. Either way by doing this your not only are giving yourself a soft unit counter/advantage you are making your army more cost effective, and delaying the amount of time they are on those first two bases. This will also keep there gas reserve low, so science vessels stay on the back burner longer.

3) Terran cannot afford to max out quickly or even methodically when you force them to make turrets. Turrets for minor drop harassment and for muta. So consistent harassment which delays expansions,depots,turrets will accumuate into larger economic advantages.

4) terran cannot afford to EVER have the perfect unit combination to counter your army in multiple places. Since they will get a third you must force them to defend it with tanks and goliaths. Once they do you must punish them for it.

I look at ZvMech as a boxing match. Terran might threw in a few jabs here and there with vultures but overall he is aiming right for the chin, while zerg is the fast darty/dodging fighting that is trying to setup a combo move. Muta->hydra-ling->defiler/lurker -> muta 1 2 3 4 5 6 BAM.



good post, I feel like this is one of my major leaks. I never really capitalize on terran's inability to always have the perfect mix and ratio to counter my army and I find myself with pure hydraling for too long. It's just kinda scary to mix in mutas in the midgame when a few valkyries or vessels combined with a control mistake can immediately evaporate your mutas.
Our Protoss, Who art in Aiur HongUn be Thy name; Thy stalker come, Thy will be blunk, on ladder as it is in Micro Tourny. Give us this win in our daily ladder, and forgive us our cheeses, As we forgive those who play zerg against us.
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7695 Posts
April 29 2009 01:31 GMT
#23
Drowsy you have the same flawed thinking as I do ingame also.

Just remember 'mixing in' or 'bring some' mutas isn't enough. If your going to show up with muta, make it 20-30-40 power , remember you should be on 4gas minimium by the time your worried about everything. Also never clump your mutas vs mech. Its okay if its 1 group to harrass. but to be honest even sci ira's on 40 mutas is pretty easy to pull part if you don't clump them.
StRyKeR
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States1756 Posts
April 29 2009 03:26 GMT
#24
Another important point with the muta carapace upgrade is that once you have +2, valkyries don't do much damage at all to your mutas.

Early game, a few valks can massacre your mutas, but late game, your only real threats are mass goliaths and mass science vessels.
Ars longa, vita brevis, principia aeturna.
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
April 29 2009 11:35 GMT
#25
What I find frustrating when I play against mech is that I have too much gas and not enough minerals. I basically went pure hydras. What would be the proper response to this? Lurkers? Mutas? What else?
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7695 Posts
April 29 2009 11:55 GMT
#26
That is not a good question. You answered it yourself.

Also is going pure hydra the recommended way of dealing with mech ?
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
April 29 2009 12:14 GMT
#27
Ok. Thanks for your tips. I guess I just have to do a bit more practicing. I'd really build a sunken in my main this time.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
myst[a]
Profile Joined March 2005
France130 Posts
April 29 2009 13:46 GMT
#28
sunken main sux
3 hatch muta sux

day advice are a little old, because terran didn't play like they use to play now. Terran meca on iccup is the newiest way to get easy win on iccup.

the truth is meca is very hard and very imba to win.
you can try taking map , they are very strong to harass and kill your 200 pop without loosing more than 20.

some good zerg players use pool 12 gaz 12 at 300, then h12 expo , lair first as soon as possible when spire. timing of spire is now 5:00 instead 6:00, eco is a bit lower but you are safe vs harass. Of course you have to play very good with micro muta but it is the safest way to play.
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
April 29 2009 15:51 GMT
#29
On April 29 2009 22:46 myst[a] wrote:
sunken main sux
3 hatch muta sux

day advice are a little old, because terran didn't play like they use to play now. Terran meca on iccup is the newiest way to get easy win on iccup.

the truth is meca is very hard and very imba to win.
you can try taking map , they are very strong to harass and kill your 200 pop without loosing more than 20.

some good zerg players use pool 12 gaz 12 at 300, then h12 expo , lair first as soon as possible when spire. timing of spire is now 5:00 instead 6:00, eco is a bit lower but you are safe vs harass. Of course you have to play very good with micro muta but it is the safest way to play.

I'd actually think that kind of build is really vulnerable to harass. I really doubt you could get a sunken up in time in your nat to defend a vulture. It seems like this build would get ripped to shreds by someone with good vult micro before your mutas could even get out.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7695 Posts
April 29 2009 17:13 GMT
#30
you can defend against harass but overall his entire post is wrong and unhelpfull.


Hey myst what a great way to teach a lower level player how to get a grasp on the game. Go super low eco, really purely on an articulated micro. Learn everything by yourself. and don't defend with sunkens at all costs.

It isn't 5:00 minutes when the 12pool/12gas/12hat build produces muta, at it is a fast 5 muta then the next three come rather slow. Also 2 factory vulture forces enough sunkens/lings to bankrupt you premuta. Not to mention if they just go factory->port -> back into bio. Then its nearly an automatic loss..
myst[a]
Profile Joined March 2005
France130 Posts
April 29 2009 17:38 GMT
#31
http://screplays.info/files/155128262/Blind_vs_SuddenDeath..rep

here a replay with the build I m talking about. Suddendeath. is A+

it is safe, even versus the first vulture, you will have speed ling just after he go, and you will have your sunken ready. so it is safe. It is very nice vs vulture + wraith build, expo meca build.

now if he 2 facto vulture speed, you have to chase vulture first of course.

problem it is a hard build to play, you have to harass terran as soon as possible.

for my new friend attackzerg, sunken main is for noob. 3 hatch muta with 6 hydra is very easy for terran. He can do what's he want without be worried at all and plus harass a litte.. Even if you expand a lot, he can out faster because he is very safe and can kill you with a nice timing.
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7695 Posts
April 29 2009 19:00 GMT
#32
Are you in a position to tell me that something I use in my games is 'noob'?

Once again NO. You are advising a low level gamer to rely on preforming a micro intensive hyper agro build.

I've beaten mech gamers in ranked iccup games at B+ and A- using BOTH strategys and 3 hat is stronger.

Then again you obviously no better then day[9] and ret. Because you are ....
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