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On November 21 2008 08:11 ySoLaMe wrote:
I find myself being forced back little by little. On Python, the ledge above his expo, and the tanks creeping up the sides of his choke always seem to push me back. At this point, I realize I can expand, so I take my nat and begin to mass the maximum amount of gates I can pump from - then it happens.
My obs sees the Terran massing factories as his new expo is boosting his economy and I start to think to myself, "Shit, I better get my speed shuttle and zeal count up, and if I can, get some storm to get those fag-tank clusters".
The Terran creeps out of his expo, runs around vultures, tries to harass me, and eventually starts his push. I try to delay him. I try to flank. I get zeals into his sieging tanks and take out a few. But my goon force isn't spread enough, the majority gets splooshed and so I retreat back to where it's safe.
ANDDDDDDDDDDD right here is when you lose everygame I'm sure. PvT is a marathon and a macro battle. If your slow expoing and then planning to mass huge off of 2 bases then you HAVE to kill him in this first battle where you get "splooshed" otherwise yes... ofcourse his reinforcments will come and rape you. With no army to defend new expansions with, how will you ever get them up? Rely on him sucking? It sounds like your playing a very all in style and it's not working. Gotta expand more and use your army for map control purposes other than trying to slam your dick into the front of his shit; you'll lose.
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On November 22 2008 23:28 BlackStar wrote:
Uuh, D terrans are terrans that can win vs D protosses. So they need to be a lot better than those D protosses. Otherwise they would be D-.
Also, D terrans don't know how to scout? They just die against DTs? I think this all comes from people inventing their iccup rank. They all think they are way above D but in fact they are D+ ore barely C-.
The main differences between D and C are macro, multitasking and late game if you ask me. No scouting, stupid builds, etc that's all D-.
True. If you don't always cheese, hitting D actually takes quite a bit of skill (relatively speaking...). And they generally will be able to scout you and counter your strategies and such.
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On November 23 2008 02:30 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2008 23:28 BlackStar wrote:
Uuh, D terrans are terrans that can win vs D protosses. So they need to be a lot better than those D protosses. Otherwise they would be D-.
Also, D terrans don't know how to scout? They just die against DTs? I think this all comes from people inventing their iccup rank. They all think they are way above D but in fact they are D+ ore barely C-.
The main differences between D and C are macro, multitasking and late game if you ask me. No scouting, stupid builds, etc that's all D-. True. If you don't always cheese, hitting D actually takes quite a bit of skill (relatively speaking...). And they generally will be able to scout you and counter your strategies and such.
Uh...all you have to do is hit Clearstats YES and it will land you in D.......but D players are D because they are learning all the different strategies and counters for them. I think Getting higher to C level in general(not C-,C+,etc) requires you to know your strategies and counters but you also need to get your mechanics down and it just goes up and up from there imo
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you should mass some speedlots to solve tank problems, whenever i find a tank cluster i just send those little jets in and they cant kill me. i can usually kill all of them with one group of speedlots depending on how many tanks he has.
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United States11637 Posts
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United States2186 Posts
On November 28 2008 04:39 boesthius wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2008 20:05 VyzhiS wrote:"I've been playing for five years, and I still don't know how to 1a2a3a vs D Terran, please help me''  imo people should start getting banned for just only replying with this joke in the strategy section. and i think your problem is what most everyone has suggested - your macro isn't strong enough to keep up with terran where you should be outexpo'ing him and taking map dominance when the T slowexpands. i can't say since you haven't up'd a rep yet, but are you using all your tech? i.e. storm drops, zealbombs, arbiters, etc? is your army fairly mixed with zeals/goons/hts and not just goons?
For every other matchup it's just a joke. But it is true in low level (D-C more or less) PvT. P does not need to micro at all if they can exploit the bad Terran mindsets at these levels and just macro well.
P has:
1) 2 gate power goon with a zeal or two early if they don't wall
2) proxy gate dt rush
3) dt drop
4) reaver drop (before or after expand)
5) 13/14 nexus
6) proxy zeal rush (in middle or in their base)
7) proxy gate+forge
A few other mix builds or combinations of the above; 14 nexus into dt drop being a very evil build. In short, a LOT of options to catch the Terran off guard. This is if you feel micro is your biggest strength.
As for the OP, you are looking in the wrong direction. If you want to play straight up and not do the plethora of early advantage builds, the biggest thing is that you need to learn is economics and macro. I,e when you are ahead, when to expand, etc. Straight up PvT at this level literally is just attack move. The only thing that matters is your macro and economic timing.
When I play C and below level ppl TvP, 90% of the ones who don't try some cheese overexpand an obscene amount. I,e double nexus vs siege expand. I even have had two c+ protoss who triple expanded after doing 2 gate goon pressure with a reaver drop, which is downright suicide. Given how bad all of these P's are that are making it this far with very high % PvT records, I heavily suspect that D/C level terrans have no concept of timing and economics and will just try to do some jack of all trades build that is terrible and can't do a timing push for their life. If you want easy victories straight up, I heavily encourage just abusing their lack of timing/economic knowledge.
Assuming Terran does siege expand (with a few map exceptions like andromeda and othello where fact port is decent, virtually every other Terran build is some kind of allin/semi allin/very risky), you can just brutalize bad Terrans by double expanding immediately. Against better Terrans who are not going a Flash fast +1/3rd cc build (where you make armory/3rd cc asap), you will need to delay that 3rd base till you have 4 gates and obs or so up, depending on map of course.
The safest build against siege expand, if you aren't sure of it, is a 2 gate range build that expands as soon as you know they are making a cc or going 1 fact, which is very likely after 1-3 goons.If they blatantly show siege expand then you can just make the nexus immediately. No bad Terran is going to try any super early pressure after deciding to expand.
Against bad Terrans you can just expand expand expand, nonstop probes, add gates (3 per base is norm, though you can squeeze 4 on 8-10 mineral patch bases if you are only making units), and keep spending money well. When they push, just delay the maximum amount of time, then crush it. I don't know how good the mechanics are of these Terrans, but I my pushes raped so badly cause my mechanics are sooo sloppy and they just have obs over and attack when I unsiege and don't lay mines/turrets/siege up fast enough. Arbiters are really good for this as well since Terran without turrets/vessels near needs to be very vigilant with scanning; a pretty high expectation for terrans with mediocre mechanics.
Honestly, don't worry about mimicing Pusan or even microing well. PvT low level is 100% macro, and once you can do that without suiciding your army you'll make c- and maybe even c easily, depending on whether you play korean hours or not. After that point, you will need to learn how to counter timing pushes, and how to use arbiters effectively as well as have solid goon micro in general.
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The situation you describe is pure doom. Once the terran ball is firmly encroached in front of your natural you might as well gg.
Anyone who knows a way out of this should tell Stork:
+ Show Spoiler +2008/01/11 Incruit OSL Finals Fantasy vs Stork Set 3 on Return of the King: (with English commentary) Despite the mightiest (but unfortunate) of efforts, Stork couldn't stop Fantasy from besieging his nat. There's little more he could do but buy time. Observe the contrast between this and the preceding set: 2008/01/11 Incruit OSL Finals Fantasy vs Stork Set 2 on Medusa: (with English commentary) This time Stork nearly crippled Fantasy while still in his base, and then broke him in the center. The rest of the game was one-sided in Stork's favor. Watch this finals. Or rewatch it. It's an awesome PvT tutorial.
So the only way out is to break the terran player before than happens, preferably before the ball leaves the base,
+ Show Spoiler +2008/11/06 ClubDay Online MSL Ro8 FireBatHero vs Bisu Set 1 on Medusa One-base reavers. Pure rape. FireBatHero was sloppy though and that precipitated his doom.
otherwise in the center of the map with mass storms, arbiters.
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oh my god... The big rule PvT is that if you dont kill the first BIG T push, you're fucked. Whoever wins the first big PvT push will win the game. Also P should always be 1+ expansion ahead of T. So set up the contain, get your nat up and running, and when your contain is broken, set up your third. Mech has a shitload of HP so dont go for dt's or anything cute, just mass a fuckload of units. Goons > vults, Speedlots > tanks, so make sure you utilize that. Make sure it isn't Tanks > Goons, Vults >Speedlots. Make sure you get that third up, and if you have the opportunity to trade armies DO IT. Gateways' resupply rate is much higher than factories. Have Obs at other potential expansions and make sure t does not get them. Once the T is mined out of his main and nat, his army will start to dwindle and you can waltz into his base.
Always expand. Expand expand expand. Just mass a fuckton of units and run his turtling ass over. :D :D
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On November 23 2008 01:30 MiniRoman wrote:
It sounds like your playing a very all in style and it's not working. Gotta expand more and use your army for map control purposes other than trying to slam your dick into the front of his shit; you'll lose.
That made me lols pretty hard.
Thanks to everyone else for the help and insight.
I think I've gotten a bit better thanks to the wisdommmm.
I'll upload a rep quite soon.
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Another big rule is not to waste your army by 1a2a3a4a when your maxed and the terran player is clearly in a disadvatnage with the lower troops.....It doensn' work >_> Believe me no matter HOW GOOD your macro is it wont work.....uh i think this has exceptions. Dont amove into the natural choke of a terran but its probably safer to wait until they push out. more ways to flank
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Hi,
I got problems with my macro, since this is a [H] PvT Help.. I'm just going to ask a question here.
In andromeda, I can't barely go 200/200 within 13 minutes because of poor macro. at one point do I stop the probe production? Because I've watched some a Bisu vs Nada rep on Arcadia. I found out that he almost stops probe production on main when he has about 84/84 psi and he continues on when he has his 3rd expo.
I really suck at this macro game and I always get steamed roll by a 200/200 terran during 15 to 17 minute of the game.
I only have a fighting chance if I can harass my opponents eco, but there is little chance that I can do that because He knows me too well. (he is my friend of course)
I'll just post the replay later once I get home.. I'm still here at the office... hehehe
EDIT:
Here it is at last the replay! :D
http://www.fighterreplays.com/starcraft/replays/98989a
give me an insight on what to do please.
Take note:
Also, 3rd expo was so delayed.
Got vulture harass like a bitch.
Tech was there unfortunately, unit production sucked this time.
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i didnt see the replay but i probably know the reasons. Remember to build pylons when the supply is 3-4 away from max. And when you set up new expansions send about 6-8 probes to them. Pump about 5-7 more probes at the expansions and you are set. (have about 12-15 probes at each expansions conservatively) MOAR GATEWAYS, learn gateway and pylon placement so that your units dont get stuck, uhmm.. MOAR GATEWAYS, MOAR GATEWAYS and...ummmm MOAR GATEWAYS :D
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hmm i like Ver's post. Lots of relavent information
The most common Terran build on Iccup vs P is the 1 fact seige expand. The best way to counter this is to 2 gate range, 3-4 goons and take natural. If you see the cc at the nat throw down a few more gateways, if the cc is not finished take your third. The protoss player should take the nat before the Terran player does, and should have his third by the time the T's nat kicks in. By the time the Terran player's eco kicks in, you should be running off of 3 bases and about 5-7 gates. Your Terran opponent will have 3-5 facts. Get cit + temps, leg ups, storm tech, mass and trade armies. Using your gateway's superior resupply rate macro up, contain his third and take the game
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I'm still a very newbie player, but PvT seems to be my hardest matchup by far, those tanks are just so powerful and it's difficult to get units within range to attack them
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On November 21 2008 08:11 ySoLaMe wrote:
He would scan for carriers and mass gols at the sight of the fleet beacon.
Corsair/High Templar.
</sarcasm>
In terms of an actual strategy, no, not a good idea. But if you're really frustrated, pull something out of your a**. If nothing else, it'll confuse the hell out of your opponent, and it'll be funny. 
He'll see you going for stargate/fleet beacon, then mass goliath, like you said, expecting carriers. so what you do is build templars to counter the goliaths, and get corsairs with disruption web to help deal with the tanks. obviously keep building goons/zeals too.
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PvT is srsly a pain in the ass when you dont have patience like me and the terrans are gay and camps for 40 minutes
/end rant
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United States44020 Posts
On December 05 2008 08:16 MunchThatCrunch wrote:
I'm still a very newbie player, but PvT seems to be my hardest matchup by far, those tanks are just so powerful and it's difficult to get units within range to attack them
You need to use zealots on normal move (rather than attack move) to get among them as you engage with goons. That'll detonate mines in his army and cause his tanks to start dealing a lot of friendly fire while minimising splash on your zealots. At the same time you want to be moving your goons in from as wide an arc (ie flanking) as possible, dropping zealots (zeebombs) on his tanks and mines and using shuttle deployed stormers within storm range after the tanks have already started firing (before and they get tankowned) to coat his army with storms. While on paper the Terran army has every advantage going for them this combination is effective if you get good at executing it.
The other thing to remember is that while the above is the best way to engage a terran mass you should be avoiding engaging until absolutely necessary. PvT is about macroing up and then delaying while trying to prevent the terran counter macroing. You want to put off a fight until not fighting would lose the game because the longer you delay the battle the greater your macro advantage will be. Hopefully by then your advantage will be big enough that by using the above technique you can run over his army.
An annoying thing terrans like to do late game is have ridiculous amounts of tank depth. ie by the time you're fully engaged with the front of his army the back is only just starting to fire and you end up getting bogged down with no zealots or storms left, even though you owned the front half of his army. In that situation don't be at all afraid to pull back and regroup, you're in no way committed. I see too many Protoss players trying to roll back the terran push or die trying, rather than accepting they got great value for their losses against the front half of the terran ball but they're lacking the army balance to successfully engage the back. As I said in the second paragraph, you're playing for time. If you give the terran a bloody nose and smash the front of his push that's often all you need to do. Using your remaining goons to try and engage the tanks in his reserve is an easy way to hand him the game.
If you want to see shuttlestorms being used to own a terran mass then this JangBi clip is the textbook.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F3IbwjeCx6U&feature=related
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On December 05 2008 01:29 XeRO[BluE] wrote:
i didnt see the replay but i probably know the reasons. Remember to build pylons when the supply is 3-4 away from max. And when you set up new expansions send about 6-8 probes to them. Pump about 5-7 more probes at the expansions and you are set. (have about 12-15 probes at each expansions conservatively) MOAR GATEWAYS, learn gateway and pylon placement so that your units dont get stuck, uhmm.. MOAR GATEWAYS, MOAR GATEWAYS and...ummmm MOAR GATEWAYS :D
And a good way to think about this (late game) is that at 4 gate ways, you're going to need a new pylon every new production cycle (at least) and at 8 gate ways you're going to need to. That's even if you're expanding and throwing down random pylons and stuff. Pylons are cheap compared to not having the units when you need them.
On December 05 2008 12:20 xJacky wrote:
PvT is srsly a pain in the ass when you dont have patience like me and the terrans are gay and camps for 40 minutes
/end rant
There have been plenty of threads about this. Use the search function.
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Ive always wondered whats optimal goon to zealot ratio?
Say terran ball has 50/50 tanks/vultures with mines planted..
2:2 or 1:3 goon/zealot? 100% manlots?
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On December 05 2008 20:14 fearus wrote:
Ive always wondered whats optimal goon to zealot ratio?
Say terran ball has 50/50 tanks/vultures with mines planted..
2:2 or 1:3 goon/zealot? 100% manlots?
pure goons get raped by tanks
pure zealots get raped by mines and vults
(and please..do not ever use the term MANLOTS again..that term only applies to Reach's lots)
hmmm my ratio is about for every 2 control group of goons i have 1 control group of speedlots
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EPT
