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(Edit: I forgot the "[H]" in the subject. My bad.)
A little background.
I've played bw for about 5 years, adding a year break due to have a serious girlfriend at one point. Throughout the 5 years, I had played Zerg for the majority. Recently though, I've switched to Protoss because it's the race I seem to have the most fun playing.
Previously when I was playing, I was rarely determined to become a serious, play-to-win type of gamer. Now that I have free time, and I like playing bw more than when I first started, I've decided to take my game a little more seriously. (Trying to avoid crying when necessary.)
The wall I'm breaking down.
Since switching to Protoss, I've had some trouble learning the new strategies and builds made famous by the likes of Bisu. I felt as thought the Forge FE left me far too vunerable to the Zerg's hydra break, but I've learned to tech straight to templar in order to counter the hydras, mass ling, or mutas (if he chooses to do so).
Strategies aside, playing Protoss has left me with a problem, and it doesn't involve my Zerg and Protossian enemies.
The creeping offensive defense.
When I play against a Terran, I usually do one of a few builds which seem to work for me. 1gate at home & 1 forward gate for 2gate zeal rush, 2gate goon/reaver/obs, or 2gate goon contain into 2base Pusan-styled macro.
(What I mean by Pusan style is this: I get my nat up and running, and mass gates, and try to out-macro, and steamroll the Terran with speedlots, zealot bombs, and ranged goons.)
Anyway, when the Terran does his usual siege expand, I run into some trouble.
I find myself being forced back little by little. On Python, the ledge above his expo, and the tanks creeping up the sides of his choke always seem to push me back. At this point, I realize I can expand, so I take my nat and begin to mass the maximum amount of gates I can pump from - then it happens.
My obs sees the Terran massing factories as his new expo is boosting his economy and I start to think to myself, "Shit, I better get my speed shuttle and zeal count up, and if I can, get some storm to get those fag-tank clusters".
The Terran creeps out of his expo, runs around vultures, tries to harass me, and eventually starts his push. I try to delay him. I try to flank. I get zeals into his sieging tanks and take out a few. But my goon force isn't spread enough, the majority gets splooshed and so I retreat back to where it's safe.
His reinforcements come out, and he keeps his push moving across the map, sieging if I look threatening. He gets to my choke, despite my attempts to either stop his push or harass his main. Once he's at my choke, my goons and lots are going against a funnel, and simply can't break the camp unless I pull off something gosu like probe drops on his troops. (But that's in the small window before his obligatory turrets get put up.)
This has happened a few times, on Python and Byzantanium2. I don't know how to break it. Once the Terran gets to my choke and pushes, it's gg for me. He has scan, so dts wouldn't be too effective. He would scan for carriers and mass gols at the sight of the fleet beacon. So, I'm stuck with trying to improve my Terran-breaking techniques.
The obvious thing to avoid this situation is to break the Terran before he gets to my choke, but if the Terran is decent, and reads what I'm doing, he'll find a way to set up in an advantageous position, and push out anyway - still getting to my choke and pwning me.
So, my questions to you guys are these:
How can I break this siege expand without going reavers which may fail and leave me behind?
Is there a strat that I don't know about which perfectly counters the T's siege expand?
(I'd post reps, but I'm on my work computer, so maybe I'll update this with reps a bit later.)
I'm somewhat stuck, so any feedback would be greatly appreciated.
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How can I break this siege expand without going reavers which may fail and leave me behind?
Is there a strat that I don't know about which perfectly counters the T's siege expand?
Go for a quick third expansion and capitalize on the fact terran will not push you early. Protoss doesn't fair well with terran on the same amount of expansions. The general build for it is going 1 gateway>3 dragoons>Expand at natural>2 gateway>Robo>Expand a third. There's obvious variations to it but that's the general build of it. Once you get your third expansion running, you can slowly add 6-9 gateways. The purpose of the 3 bases is to ultimately run off 9 bases and overwhelm terran economically.
Here's a replay showing a variation of the 3 base protoss versus terran siege expand:
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=5163
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Don't forget to get 3-2-0 upgrades. Otherwise your army would just melt to 3-2 upgraded mech units.
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Well by the time he pushes out the T is usually 0-1 or 1-1, so I have the attack/armor to negate that.
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If he's slow pushing, you tech to arbiters or carriers. If he's making a timing push, you should have enough units to squash him or at least trade if you micro properly.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=58685
^ If you haven't read it already
Try to take your 3rd quickly (cut probes for more gates after the 3rd goes down if you scout a 5/6 fact)
You might already know this, but if you have a shuttle, use zealots because probes die in 1 tank shot and don't set off mines
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I found this helpful cuz im in the same position, thanks guys. 
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Well from your post it sounds a lot like you just get outmacroed because you lack basic knowledge of common builds. As Protoss you want to always be ahead of Terran in expo count, meaning you should have your nat up earlier than Terran and should be working on taking your third when the Terran's taken his natural.
This is just guesswork though, if you want more specific help you resally need to upload a replay.
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Early aggression doesn't always work; it can set you back, especially on a map like Python. Only pressure if you already know the outcome of the engagement before you do it. If you see him seige expand, that's a cue to take your nat and possibly your third.
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Where can I host to upload replays?
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when you go for third, cut your probes so that you can still produce units and tech, unless if it's a slow third.
also if you are attacking his sieged tanks, you will die if your attack fails. so be very patient.
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"I've been playing for five years, and I still don't know how to 1a2a3a vs D Terran, please help me''
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If you don't know when and where to 1a2a3a vs terran it's not that easy. Terrans that aren't D- in TvP aren't that horrible.
That's why PvT is both easy and hard. If you play correctly it's not very hard to prevent the terran from coming all up your choke. Less mechanics required. Close positions on Python may get hard. Especially considering it's possible to slow push and get a decent timing.
The lower the level of play the easier it is to get away with overexpanding. It's really hard for the terran to push out and not get killed by a decent ambush when protoss gets a really early 3rd. Just follow the tanks with an observer from the moment the tanks leave the terran base. Same with a 12 nexus eventhough that one can get even more risky.
You outmacro the terran, have your whole army outside the area he is going to contain so you can flank or attack everywhere. Then attack his weak points. Abuse the lack of mobility.
Then with observers see his formation. Then when you try to break his stuff have a group of pure zealots run in from the side, avoiding the vultures, and clone them on the tanks. That's really ideal. Vultures trying to block and lay mines vs your goons and then have zealots run in from a different angle getting among the siege tanks. If that happens he's dead.
If you can learn the storm carpeting using a shuttle that's very strong vs lower skilled terrans because it's so hard not to have clumped tanks. It's not that hard to do if you practice the micro on some UMS map you can make in 2 minutes. Then if you can intergrate it in play and use it at the right moment it's very very strong. So is stasis. And recall is so hard to deal with at lower levels. Most D terrans have rarely played vs a recall. If they need to defend their third base and push your fourth they just can't really defend a recall.
Also, I notice some toss players seem to ignore the third or even fourth base the terran has. If protoss throws 4 control groups of units into the stuff defending the third it's very often going to die. And then you widdle him down, he needs to compromise their push which you can then break easily. It's so hard to deal with.
And if they try to fast push you can often insta win because you ambush him and he sieges too late with no mines or turrets protecting. Even if he is careful enough you can use a shuttle. He won't have turrets. And if he does not lose his tanks you gain time to get leg speed and 1 or 2 extra rounds of zealots from your 6-8 gates.
Then protoss has a whole book of cheese and lame stuff you can pull off as well. You need to learn all the tricks and exploit all the lameness. If you don't expand away or use pylon walls for your third/fourth on maps like python it can quickly get quite difficult.
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United States44311 Posts
The siege expand is safe vs the allinish builds you're using and unless they move out really early (which if they scout they won't because you're not outexpanding them) then they'll just be able to overwhelm you when they do. It's a frustrating build because it gives the T an economic advantage which you can't take away from him. You simply have to outexpand him to recover the upper hand.
The style you're attempting is outdated and just not suitable to modern maps. Wait until icc brings back an absurd ancient map like neo-forte as motw then Pusan it up on there.
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Well, in siege expand, I cut my goons, take my third faster, add 6 more gateways or just 5, then get ups + shuttle and any tech.
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Vs siege expand you can 1 gate into 3 nexus, then get observers, add 1 gate for more goons. And then when you get income from your third you can add like 4 gates and get legs and just before you have to break his push you can get in 1 or 2 rounds of zealot production so you have 1 group of goons and some zealots with legs and more coming so you can break his timing push..
If you get outplayed you get outplayed. But this should work.
If you already 2 gated you can make sure he doesn't know about your third, unless he was smart earlier. If he doesn't know he will delay his push because otherwise it's suicide. I mean, there are tons of D level protoss players that mass up from 2 bases and then try to suicide attack into the terran choke. Terran knows this but he doesn't know what kind of P player you are.
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On November 21 2008 21:10 BlackStar wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If you don't know when and where to 1a2a3a vs terran it's not that easy. Terrans that aren't D- in TvP aren't that horrible.
That's why PvT is both easy and hard. If you play correctly it's not very hard to prevent the terran from coming all up your choke. Less mechanics required. Close positions on Python may get hard. Especially considering it's possible to slow push and get a decent timing.
The lower the level of play the easier it is to get away with overexpanding. It's really hard for the terran to push out and not get killed by a decent ambush when protoss gets a really early 3rd. Just follow the tanks with an observer from the moment the tanks leave the terran base. Same with a 12 nexus eventhough that one can get even more risky.
You outmacro the terran, have your whole army outside the area he is going to contain so you can flank or attack everywhere. Then attack his weak points. Abuse the lack of mobility.
Then with observers see his formation. Then when you try to break his stuff have a group of pure zealots run in from the side, avoiding the vultures, and clone them on the tanks. That's really ideal. Vultures trying to block and lay mines vs your goons and then have zealots run in from a different angle getting among the siege tanks. If that happens he's dead.
If you can learn the storm carpeting using a shuttle that's very strong vs lower skilled terrans because it's so hard not to have clumped tanks. It's not that hard to do if you practice the micro on some UMS map you can make in 2 minutes. Then if you can intergrate it in play and use it at the right moment it's very very strong. So is stasis. And recall is so hard to deal with at lower levels. Most D terrans have rarely played vs a recall. If they need to defend their third base and push your fourth they just can't really defend a recall.
Also, I notice some toss players seem to ignore the third or even fourth base the terran has. If protoss throws 4 control groups of units into the stuff defending the third it's very often going to die. And then you widdle him down, he needs to compromise their push which you can then break easily. It's so hard to deal with.
And if they try to fast push you can often insta win because you ambush him and he sieges too late with no mines or turrets protecting. Even if he is careful enough you can use a shuttle. He won't have turrets. And if he does not lose his tanks you gain time to get leg speed and 1 or 2 extra rounds of zealots from your 6-8 gates.
Then protoss has a whole book of cheese and lame stuff you can pull off as well. You need to learn all the tricks and exploit all the lameness. If you don't expand away or use pylon walls for your third/fourth on maps like python it can quickly get quite difficult.
I'm REALLLLLY glad you're joking. D/D+ Terrans are the easiest scrubs on the planet. If you approach it with 90 apm and moderately passable decision making, you can wipe the floor against Terrans.
It's the same as ZvT. Don't open spire until C-, because Terran players will just die to lurkers every fucking time.
Go DTs and expand at the same time. G fucking G. Or, 2 gate range/obs. GG. D~ level Terrans will die if you're even the slightest bit decieving because they don't know how to scout. Go range, get it scouted, kill the scout, cancel it and go DTs. Welcome to 20-0 protoss C-.
ugh.
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United States44311 Posts
On November 22 2008 20:29 Nintu wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2008 21:10 BlackStar wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If you don't know when and where to 1a2a3a vs terran it's not that easy. Terrans that aren't D- in TvP aren't that horrible.
That's why PvT is both easy and hard. If you play correctly it's not very hard to prevent the terran from coming all up your choke. Less mechanics required. Close positions on Python may get hard. Especially considering it's possible to slow push and get a decent timing.
The lower the level of play the easier it is to get away with overexpanding. It's really hard for the terran to push out and not get killed by a decent ambush when protoss gets a really early 3rd. Just follow the tanks with an observer from the moment the tanks leave the terran base. Same with a 12 nexus eventhough that one can get even more risky.
You outmacro the terran, have your whole army outside the area he is going to contain so you can flank or attack everywhere. Then attack his weak points. Abuse the lack of mobility.
Then with observers see his formation. Then when you try to break his stuff have a group of pure zealots run in from the side, avoiding the vultures, and clone them on the tanks. That's really ideal. Vultures trying to block and lay mines vs your goons and then have zealots run in from a different angle getting among the siege tanks. If that happens he's dead.
If you can learn the storm carpeting using a shuttle that's very strong vs lower skilled terrans because it's so hard not to have clumped tanks. It's not that hard to do if you practice the micro on some UMS map you can make in 2 minutes. Then if you can intergrate it in play and use it at the right moment it's very very strong. So is stasis. And recall is so hard to deal with at lower levels. Most D terrans have rarely played vs a recall. If they need to defend their third base and push your fourth they just can't really defend a recall.
Also, I notice some toss players seem to ignore the third or even fourth base the terran has. If protoss throws 4 control groups of units into the stuff defending the third it's very often going to die. And then you widdle him down, he needs to compromise their push which you can then break easily. It's so hard to deal with.
And if they try to fast push you can often insta win because you ambush him and he sieges too late with no mines or turrets protecting. Even if he is careful enough you can use a shuttle. He won't have turrets. And if he does not lose his tanks you gain time to get leg speed and 1 or 2 extra rounds of zealots from your 6-8 gates.
Then protoss has a whole book of cheese and lame stuff you can pull off as well. You need to learn all the tricks and exploit all the lameness. If you don't expand away or use pylon walls for your third/fourth on maps like python it can quickly get quite difficult. I'm REALLLLLY glad you're joking. D/D+ Terrans are the easiest scrubs on the planet. If you approach it with 90 apm and moderately passable decision making, you can wipe the floor against Terrans. It's the same as ZvT. Don't open spire until C-, because Terran players will just die to lurkers every fucking time. Go DTs and expand at the same time. G fucking G. Or, 2 gate range/obs. GG. D~ level Terrans will die if you're even the slightest bit decieving because they don't know how to scout. Go range, get it scouted, kill the scout, cancel it and go DTs. Welcome to 20-0 protoss C-. ugh.
If they could think like that they wouldn't be D rank. Starcraft isn't a difficult game. It's just that people are stupid.
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Uuh, D terrans are terrans that can win vs D protosses. So they need to be a lot better than those D protosses. Otherwise they would be D-.
Also, D terrans don't know how to scout? They just die against DTs? I think this all comes from people inventing their iccup rank. They all think they are way above D but in fact they are D+ ore barely C-.
The main differences between D and C are macro, multitasking and late game if you ask me. No scouting, stupid builds, etc that's all D-.
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EPT
