EPTI am assuming this is a counter to mondi's amazingly fast +1 carapace style zvp, however I am wondering if there is any numeric purpose behind this, like how the +1 attack lets zeals 2 shot lings instead of 3, or is it simply because he assumed mondi would have armor on his lings early enough to completely counter it if he went attack.
[I] PvZ - Armor before attack upgrade?
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
I am assuming this is a counter to mondi's amazingly fast +1 carapace style zvp, however I am wondering if there is any numeric purpose behind this, like how the +1 attack lets zeals 2 shot lings instead of 3, or is it simply because he assumed mondi would have armor on his lings early enough to completely counter it if he went attack. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
edit: I didn't watch that game in particular, but when protoss sees with his scouting probe and early evo chamber or knows the other player will get armor, they get armor since their attack upgrade would be not very effective. Still late on you need to catch up on attack fairly quick if he goes for hive play. | ||
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Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
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KwarK
United States42539 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
But, as Kwark pointed out, you need that 2nd forge (perhaps that 3rd gas quicker as well) and is perhaps nullified quickly by hydra. I don't really have any experience with the build myself. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
+1 armor is only if you know the cara is coming so fast that the window of +1vs0 will be too small to matter | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
I dunno in PvZ weapons is always better unless you are going reaver heavy. Maybe thats what JF was doing? Weapons always help vs buildings too, armor does nothing to help speed up killing those. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
just throws me off center  | ||
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jinnyjinn
United States38 Posts
personally i think +1 is better if ur going a speedy zlots. speedy zealots r suppose to dmg buildings n drones not units. since ther fsat enough i would go +1attk. but otherwise +1armor or +1weapon doesnt really effect the game at all. rarely. unless u do not upgrade at all lol | ||
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
On August 19 2008 19:09 CharlieMurphy wrote: +3 wep is crucial late game for goons too. They are just so much more brutal vs lings and shit when they hit for 26. I dunno in PvZ weapons is always better unless you are going reaver heavy. Maybe thats what JF was doing? Weapons always help vs buildings too, armor does nothing to help speed up killing those. Goons actually do 13 towards lings, but the attack upgrade is still very useful for the goons. I think that the common answer is the correct one. To put it simple, you are going to get +1/+1 eventually, but if you know the Z is going to get +1 carapace before or earlier than your +1 weapons, then the +1 armor would be a quick bonus, while your +1 weapons would be made obselete. | ||
Chill
Calgary25979 Posts
On August 19 2008 16:23 Kwark wrote: It gives you a fairly significant advantage in zee vs ling wars. When combined with their natural 1 armour it makes them recieve 1/4 less damage from lings. The ling +1 armour doesn't change a thing with regard to anything else so while darks not 1 hit killing drones is annoying it's acceptable. Basically it stops them using lings earlyish, especially if you can get +2. Also it allows a fairly odd version of the +1 timing attack although imo it's easily nullified by the zerg going hydra. If you're doing a +1 timing attack against a good opponent there is no reason not to do it armour style because you're not gonna get away with weapons style. But you'll need a 2nd forge to catch up pretty fast so take your nat gas asap and maybe consider taking a gas 3rd, even if it isn't the closest. Umm, +1 armour is specifically designed to stop Hydralisks, so.... | ||
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Chill
Calgary25979 Posts
Either way it doesn't really matter since early midgame PvZ no long relies much on upgrades from either side. I'd advice you not to do it unless you have a build specifically taylored to press the advantage you get with this build (Pure Zealot/High Templar +armour opening against a Zerg who is known to open Hydra or Sauron). | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
expanding quickly and playing defensively after starting with a fast armor upgrade is good. the minerals you are spending will create a gas surplus which is used for more HT and constant double forge. then it's a tvp flash-esque timing, moving out with a large, gas-heavy and well-upgraded army and a strong econ behind you. it's expected for the zerg to have a hatch at a 4th gas at the time you move out. you have an unstoppable force getting reavers in the mid-game and late-game goes well with armor. play normally but build less gates and get reavers with +attack and prevent the zerg from getting a 4th gas if you are going for an early speed zealot + 2 reaver timing attack, please get armor unlike the numerous pros i've seen get weapons ~_~ | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On August 19 2008 21:25 DeathTray wrote: Goons actually do 13 towards lings, but the attack upgrade is still very useful for the goons. I think that the common answer is the correct one. To put it simple, you are going to get +1/+1 eventually, but if you know the Z is going to get +1 carapace before or earlier than your +1 weapons, then the +1 armor would be a quick bonus, while your +1 weapons would be made obselete. I know but for some reason its just way more brutal. Maybe its because the lings all take at least 1 hit from a zeal or a storm and they are waekened making that extra damage all the more effective. | ||
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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tonytongji
67 Posts
On August 19 2008 14:58 Nitrogen23 wrote: i've always wondered why more toss don't get +1 armor, the zeals can take more hits because zerglings do such low damage and zealots have such more life, and if the zerg has +1 carapace already that won't change anything if toss goes armor. maybe it's because they'll try to get a timing in where they'll have +2 attack and zerg will only have +1 armor? i'm not sure. p get +1 attack cos if z doesnt have the amour up ---> zealot 2 shot ling instead of 3 (making zealots 50% more effective) if z gets armour that renders the above idea useless, so might as well get +1 amour for the p so zealot fight better | ||
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n3m0
Portugal247 Posts
After the 1st armor is done i always get a 2nd forge T_T Dunno but i usually do armor first :O | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
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A3iL3r0n
United States2196 Posts
On August 20 2008 11:54 Rucky wrote: Rather than thinking about the battle actually happening, I'm thinking about the situation that would come up. The +1 weapon upgrade from p will scare z into not engaging with the p army. This gives the p army more map control to expand and also protect their hts and reavers. On the other hand, the +1 armor upgrade from p will allow z to be more aggressive knowing their units won't die as fast. Z also knows that p units won't die as fast as well. That might give the z the idea to not attack the p units that don't deal much damage anyway and go straight for picking off the hts and reavers. Z will just harass the hell out of p. Basically, +1 weapon = p plays offensively and +1 armor = p plays defensively. And when p is offensive, z will be defensive and vice versa. Now if we look at normal pvz, p should be the one playing offensive by not allowing z to expand and taking expos themselves. If p lets z play offensive, eventually it doesn't matter about upgrades, z will run p over with tons of expos and tons of units. Wha? | ||
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
On August 20 2008 11:54 Rucky wrote: Rather than thinking about the battle actually happening, I'm thinking about the situation that would come up. The +1 weapon upgrade from p will scare z into not engaging with the p army. This gives the p army more map control to expand and also protect their hts and reavers. On the other hand, the +1 armor upgrade from p will allow z to be more aggressive knowing their units won't die as fast. Z also knows that p units won't die as fast as well. That might give the z the idea to not attack the p units that don't deal much damage anyway and go straight for picking off the hts and reavers. Z will just harass the hell out of p. Basically, +1 weapon = p plays offensively and +1 armor = p plays defensively. And when p is offensive, z will be defensive and vice versa. Now if we look at normal pvz, p should be the one playing offensive by not allowing z to expand and taking expos themselves. If p lets z play offensive, eventually it doesn't matter about upgrades, z will run p over with tons of expos and tons of units. Poll: wtf? (Vote): wtf? (Vote): wtfwtf? (Vote): wtfwtfwtf? | ||
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ShmotZ
United States581 Posts
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
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NotJumperer
United States1371 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
Did you even read his post? It makes so much sense that you'd be retarded not to get it. Anyways to Rucky, I think what you're saying is right that protoss should use the +1 weapon to his advantage and force zerg into a defensive position and gain map control but we're not advocating +1 armour every game. It is a specific thing where you only do (as far as I know from reading this thread) if you're going against a fast +1 carapace build or if you plan to use reaver/ht for most of the damage. I don't think the picking is a big deal because you can always block his flanks and wiggle your key units out of the way. Also come to think of it is it possible for zealots to just go slow no speed style w/ +1 armour and WALK OVER hydras? Let the hydras micro while you roll it in w/ huge zealot army?(require good timing). If zealot has 1+ armor naturally and +1 armor from upgrade, hydra does 5-2=3 dmg and that's quite laughable no? | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On August 20 2008 13:02 ShmotZ wrote: why doesnt p go dual ups then? x2 better i know it slows everything else down but ...idk just a thought Need those gas for sair/temp/reaver tech or some combination of those. At least save gas for faster storm. I think weapon first is still best in most cases because when you are going +1 weapon ur not trying to go for just a fast +1weapon vs 0 carapace but rather you're trying to get a faster +3 instead. Going armor first could delay not just +1weapon(who cares) but +3 weapon(oh shit) quite abit. On August 20 2008 13:44 dream-_- wrote: zerg going +1 attack would be like OMGTYSIRLOLIWINNOWKTHX Timing mass crackling drop? :D | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
On August 19 2008 16:23 Kwark wrote: It gives you a fairly significant advantage in zee vs ling wars. When combined with their natural 1 armour it makes them recieve 1/4 less damage from lings. The ling +1 armour doesn't change a thing with regard to anything else so while darks not 1 hit killing drones is annoying it's acceptable. Basically it stops them using lings earlyish, especially if you can get +2. Also it allows a fairly odd version of the +1 timing attack although imo it's easily nullified by the zerg going hydra. If you're doing a +1 timing attack against a good opponent there is no reason not to do it armour style because you're not gonna get away with weapons style. But you'll need a 2nd forge to catch up pretty fast so take your nat gas asap and maybe consider taking a gas 3rd, even if it isn't the closest. thats only when the zealots has lost all their shields anyways ;p i remember saft always going fast shieldarmor upgrade without templar archives in goon vs reaver fight which would make him have about +2 shields at the big clash incase they both had an expansion up and +1 if it was an early goon/reaver vs goon/reaver fight, its pretty nice with good micro but gasexpensive... in theory with good or perfect micro, shields is so much better than armor..especially vs lings but less effect against hydras | ||
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jinnyjinn
United States38 Posts
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Cham
797 Posts
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KwarK
United States42539 Posts
On August 22 2008 20:11 Cham wrote: I know +1 attack is better against zerglings, but wouldn't the armour upgrade be better for zeals vs lurkers? When my zeals are taking 19 damage a hit from lurks I do find myself thinking "if only I had some sort of upgrade to push it down to 18". | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
On August 21 2008 16:52 evanthebouncy! wrote: Did you even read his post? It makes so much sense that you'd be retarded not to get it. Anyways to Rucky, I think what you're saying is right that protoss should use the +1 weapon to his advantage and force zerg into a defensive position and gain map control but we're not advocating +1 armour every game. It is a specific thing where you only do (as far as I know from reading this thread) if you're going against a fast +1 carapace build or if you plan to use reaver/ht for most of the damage. I don't think the picking is a big deal because you can always block his flanks and wiggle your key units out of the way. Also come to think of it is it possible for zealots to just go slow no speed style w/ +1 armour and WALK OVER hydras? Let the hydras micro while you roll it in w/ huge zealot army?(require good timing). If zealot has 1+ armor naturally and +1 armor from upgrade, hydra does 5-2=3 dmg and that's quite laughable no? Your calculation is flawed, first damage is reduced by armor then armor size vs damage type is applied... = (10-2)/2 = 4 dmg normally a hydra does 4.5 dmg while lings do normally 4 dmg to lots, but with +1 armor it's 3 dmg which seems worthwhile Hits to Kill : (note that shield regen is not counted) vs Lings : 37 Normal, 46 with armor vs Hydras : 29 normal, 31 with armor = no big deal really | ||
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KwarK
United States42539 Posts
On August 20 2008 11:54 Rucky wrote: Rather than thinking about the battle actually happening, I'm thinking about the situation that would come up. The +1 weapon upgrade from p will scare z into not engaging with the p army. This gives the p army more map control to expand and also protect their hts and reavers. On the other hand, the +1 armor upgrade from p will allow z to be more aggressive knowing their units won't die as fast. Z also knows that p units won't die as fast as well. That might give the z the idea to not attack the p units that don't deal much damage anyway and go straight for picking off the hts and reavers. Z will just harass the hell out of p. Basically, +1 weapon = p plays offensively and +1 armor = p plays defensively. And when p is offensive, z will be defensive and vice versa. Now if we look at normal pvz, p should be the one playing offensive by not allowing z to expand and taking expos themselves. If p lets z play offensive, eventually it doesn't matter about upgrades, z will run p over with tons of expos and tons of units. You've missed the point. +1 is, and has been for years now, entirely worthless against a good zerg because your window of advantage is about 30 seconds. They understand how big your +1 is and either go for a strategy entirely without lings or counter grade quickly. So rather than theorycraft about how +1 can affect the game realise that you don't actually have +1 vs a good zerg. However if you upgrade armour and he still upgrades carapace because he's countering your spinning forge you do gain an advantage. +1 cara lings are no better vs +0 zee than vs +1 zee. But +1 armour zee last a lot longer. In short, +1 weapon and +1 cara P plays defensively. +1 armour and +1 cara P plays offensively. You've got it all backwards, probably because the zergs you play don't understand they need to rush cara if you rush +1. | ||
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jinnyjinn
United States38 Posts
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