EPTI am assuming this is a counter to mondi's amazingly fast +1 carapace style zvp, however I am wondering if there is any numeric purpose behind this, like how the +1 attack lets zeals 2 shot lings instead of 3, or is it simply because he assumed mondi would have armor on his lings early enough to completely counter it if he went attack.
[I] PvZ - Armor before attack upgrade?
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
I am assuming this is a counter to mondi's amazingly fast +1 carapace style zvp, however I am wondering if there is any numeric purpose behind this, like how the +1 attack lets zeals 2 shot lings instead of 3, or is it simply because he assumed mondi would have armor on his lings early enough to completely counter it if he went attack. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
edit: I didn't watch that game in particular, but when protoss sees with his scouting probe and early evo chamber or knows the other player will get armor, they get armor since their attack upgrade would be not very effective. Still late on you need to catch up on attack fairly quick if he goes for hive play. | ||
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Nitrogen
United States5345 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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Blind
United States2528 Posts
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KwarK
United States42565 Posts
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
But, as Kwark pointed out, you need that 2nd forge (perhaps that 3rd gas quicker as well) and is perhaps nullified quickly by hydra. I don't really have any experience with the build myself. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
+1 armor is only if you know the cara is coming so fast that the window of +1vs0 will be too small to matter | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
I dunno in PvZ weapons is always better unless you are going reaver heavy. Maybe thats what JF was doing? Weapons always help vs buildings too, armor does nothing to help speed up killing those. | ||
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HeavOnEarth
United States7087 Posts
just throws me off center  | ||
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jinnyjinn
United States38 Posts
personally i think +1 is better if ur going a speedy zlots. speedy zealots r suppose to dmg buildings n drones not units. since ther fsat enough i would go +1attk. but otherwise +1armor or +1weapon doesnt really effect the game at all. rarely. unless u do not upgrade at all lol | ||
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
On August 19 2008 19:09 CharlieMurphy wrote: +3 wep is crucial late game for goons too. They are just so much more brutal vs lings and shit when they hit for 26. I dunno in PvZ weapons is always better unless you are going reaver heavy. Maybe thats what JF was doing? Weapons always help vs buildings too, armor does nothing to help speed up killing those. Goons actually do 13 towards lings, but the attack upgrade is still very useful for the goons. I think that the common answer is the correct one. To put it simple, you are going to get +1/+1 eventually, but if you know the Z is going to get +1 carapace before or earlier than your +1 weapons, then the +1 armor would be a quick bonus, while your +1 weapons would be made obselete. | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
On August 19 2008 16:23 Kwark wrote: It gives you a fairly significant advantage in zee vs ling wars. When combined with their natural 1 armour it makes them recieve 1/4 less damage from lings. The ling +1 armour doesn't change a thing with regard to anything else so while darks not 1 hit killing drones is annoying it's acceptable. Basically it stops them using lings earlyish, especially if you can get +2. Also it allows a fairly odd version of the +1 timing attack although imo it's easily nullified by the zerg going hydra. If you're doing a +1 timing attack against a good opponent there is no reason not to do it armour style because you're not gonna get away with weapons style. But you'll need a 2nd forge to catch up pretty fast so take your nat gas asap and maybe consider taking a gas 3rd, even if it isn't the closest. Umm, +1 armour is specifically designed to stop Hydralisks, so.... | ||
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
Either way it doesn't really matter since early midgame PvZ no long relies much on upgrades from either side. I'd advice you not to do it unless you have a build specifically taylored to press the advantage you get with this build (Pure Zealot/High Templar +armour opening against a Zerg who is known to open Hydra or Sauron). | ||
NonY
8748 Posts
expanding quickly and playing defensively after starting with a fast armor upgrade is good. the minerals you are spending will create a gas surplus which is used for more HT and constant double forge. then it's a tvp flash-esque timing, moving out with a large, gas-heavy and well-upgraded army and a strong econ behind you. it's expected for the zerg to have a hatch at a 4th gas at the time you move out. you have an unstoppable force getting reavers in the mid-game and late-game goes well with armor. play normally but build less gates and get reavers with +attack and prevent the zerg from getting a 4th gas if you are going for an early speed zealot + 2 reaver timing attack, please get armor unlike the numerous pros i've seen get weapons ~_~ | ||
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No_eL
Chile1438 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On August 19 2008 21:25 DeathTray wrote: Goons actually do 13 towards lings, but the attack upgrade is still very useful for the goons. I think that the common answer is the correct one. To put it simple, you are going to get +1/+1 eventually, but if you know the Z is going to get +1 carapace before or earlier than your +1 weapons, then the +1 armor would be a quick bonus, while your +1 weapons would be made obselete. I know but for some reason its just way more brutal. Maybe its because the lings all take at least 1 hit from a zeal or a storm and they are waekened making that extra damage all the more effective. | ||
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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tonytongji
67 Posts
On August 19 2008 14:58 Nitrogen23 wrote: i've always wondered why more toss don't get +1 armor, the zeals can take more hits because zerglings do such low damage and zealots have such more life, and if the zerg has +1 carapace already that won't change anything if toss goes armor. maybe it's because they'll try to get a timing in where they'll have +2 attack and zerg will only have +1 armor? i'm not sure. p get +1 attack cos if z doesnt have the amour up ---> zealot 2 shot ling instead of 3 (making zealots 50% more effective) if z gets armour that renders the above idea useless, so might as well get +1 amour for the p so zealot fight better | ||
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n3m0
Portugal247 Posts
After the 1st armor is done i always get a 2nd forge T_T Dunno but i usually do armor first :O | ||
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