**minor spoiler warning in PvTs across Katrina** forgot to tag this with [I] sorry
I was just watching Kal vs Light game 1, and I saw that like SO MANY OTHER TERRAN on the map Katrina, went starport after expanding quickly.
Kal had a stargate up quickly, and I was caught by surprise BIG TIME. I was stoned at the time, so I was thinking, wtf is he going to do? And I figured a scout would be such an amazing choice, because almost all terrans have decided to go dropships on this map. I don't think I could have came up with this idea sober. It would work especially well against Katrina on opposite positions, which they had in that game, because the dropship has a long way to go before reaching the base, in which time the scout could pick it off.
One wraith also cant kill a scout, am I correct in thinking that? So it isn't easily countered except by bringing a mobile force of goliath alongside the dropship, which is also hard because the Scout will know exactly where your dropship and units are.
Looking for feedback on this one, I'm going to recommend this to Nony who was looking for weird strats to try out and make reps out of in his blog.
Of course, Kal didn't go scout, he 2 base carrier.
[edit] From re-watching the game, those drops to Kal's nat did a ton of damage to his economy. I think that could have been prevented by doing this, maybe by picking off the first one by having freedom of no anti-air in light's base and then he would just be too afraid to make a second dropship.
This is one of the dumbest ideas I've ever heard. Scout on Katrina PvT? Seriously? P can already win the map really easily by playing straight up. Scout gives absolutely NO advantage. The drops to Kal's nat barely did any damage anyways if you fact in the cost of the starport/dropship/units droped. Scouts cost a shitload of money are almost never worth it. Their only use in TvP is to win in a stylish/humilulating way. Not only that but a scout would delay the timing for carriers possibly long enough for T to mass enough gols/turrets to defend against them, which is horrible.
On top of that , dropships are FASTER than scouts. Where do you get this idea that 1 scout can easily pick off a dropship? Not going to happen at the pro level.
I can't stress enough what a bad idea this is.
It's like you took a look at a map where P has a massive advantage and thought "hmm, how can I fuck that advantage up?" Oh I know! Scouts!".
On February 07 2008 23:06 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Scouts cost a shitload of money are almost never worth it. Their only use in TvP is to win in a stylish/humilulating way.
No it isn't viable. I had a huge thing written up bashing you, but I'm just going to say format your title properly in the future. Also a Scout kills a Wraith.
Yea I think the strategy section is a little harsh on new ideas. But let's review what people are thinking before they post their "bashing" replies:
- Scouts take a long time. If Terran is doing some sort of fast drop to kill Probes, your Scout isn't going to be near to finished before his first drop comes. That is unless you forego Observers, in which case a Vulture drop will cause unbelievable pain. - Scouts are slow. I'm pertty sure at full speed they move slower than a Dropship, so I don't know how you plan on killing one. - Scouts are weak. If you are worried moreso about a second drop that comes with many Dropships, he will undoubtably have Goliaths by this time. Dropping two Goliaths shoud deal with a Scout before it kills a Dropshuip. - Scouts are expensive. If you devote 2 Dragoons to ignoring enemies and targetting the Dropship, you would be much better off.
This is all useless analysis, however, because we are ignoring the underlying point. What advantage are you getting by rushing Scouts compared to normal play? Forget normal play, let's just say I do your Scout build but then go Fleet Beacon and Carriers. I'd be much better off in either case. The Scout provides no advantage, because it is slow, clumsy and expensive. You will not be able to kill a Dropship from a progamer with a Scout unless it was previously damaged.
You are correct in thinking I was thinking about quick and economically advantageous counters to dropships, as opposed to investing heavily into them, i.e., upgrades. Too bad that's amounted to squat since they cost so much anyway. Also, I had no idea scouts were slower than dropships, which is the ultimate downfall of the idea. But on the topic of scouts, have you seen rekrul's game in the replay section?
Scouts should really come with the speed upgrade built in =/
Most useless unit in the game otherwise, queens are actually useful from time to time and have a lot of potential I think, and are fairly cheap, and ghosts, hey sometimes they get used.
There's no good reason to get a scout in any case PvT, all it does is set you back. No damage and easy to stop with a few goliaths. Afaik scouts are also very cost ineffective, so either you go straight to carriers or just play it straight up.
On February 08 2008 06:31 Frits wrote: There's no good reason to get a scout in any case PvT, all it does is set you back. No damage and easy to stop with a few goliaths. Afaik scouts are also very cost ineffective, so either you go straight to carriers or just play it straight up.
there is a good reason to get a scout, it's called the stove.
On February 08 2008 06:14 BluzMan wrote: Why get a scout, get a corsair or two. These little ships are awesome at taking down dropships.
No. Horrible Idea.
And the stove is a terrible build. Its an opening that forces terran to get the things they need to counter the follow up. Turrets to stop the scout, which also stop dts. Then they have to get acad against the dts + goliaths to move out vs the scout. This counters arbs
also corsairs ahve disruption web, i wonder how that build would work. on katrina, go stargate, 1 sair for scouting, beacon, carrier/disruption and goon army. that would be fun~~
On February 08 2008 06:31 Frits wrote: There's no good reason to get a scout in any case PvT, all it does is set you back. No damage and easy to stop with a few goliaths. Afaik scouts are also very cost ineffective, so either you go straight to carriers or just play it straight up.
there is a good reason to get a scout, it's called the stove.
I think scouts are pretty cool for a surprise PvZ harass off 1 gate tech.
One of my friends showed me this old VOD of Nal_ra vs Julyzerg on Raid Assault where Nal_ra went scout with sair/dt support and created a force by macroing hard after starting harass.Keeps it alive the whole game!
PvT I think it work for some joke games, but thats it.
PvP, maybe a really rare scenario where the map is mined out, there is a lack of spellcasters, and your opponent's army is practically all carriers.
On February 08 2008 06:31 Frits wrote: There's no good reason to get a scout in any case PvT, all it does is set you back. No damage and easy to stop with a few goliaths. Afaik scouts are also very cost ineffective, so either you go straight to carriers or just play it straight up.
there is a good reason to get a scout, it's called the stove.
Actually perhaps if the protoss makes it right after his stargate finishes. The normal 2 base reaver/carrier build is to make 1 stargate after the shuttle/reaver leaves to harrass, then build the fleet beacon and the second stargate after the first is finished. But during this time, the first stargate is idle.
The protoss COULD build a scout while the fleet beacon/2nd stargate is warping, and use it as a dropship counter, expansion scout or anti-wraith unit to protect shuttles (after all, when terrans go starports they like to make wraith to counter reaver).
Of course in the end this is still a stretch... the reaver support it pointless since you start making your scout AFTER the reaver leaves, so by the time the scout's finished the reaver is either dead or done harrassing and no longer needs the support. Scouting can be done way easier with obs, and defending against dropship isn't exactly something that's difficult with goons. Plus, I think a fleet beacon would warp faster than the scout, thus making the carrier timing late.
Ugh, I just theorized a use for the scout and then crushed it.
On February 08 2008 06:31 Frits wrote: There's no good reason to get a scout in any case PvT, all it does is set you back. No damage and easy to stop with a few goliaths. Afaik scouts are also very cost ineffective, so either you go straight to carriers or just play it straight up.
there is a good reason to get a scout, it's called the stove.
On February 08 2008 02:54 Chill wrote: - Scouts are slow. I'm pertty sure at full speed they move slower than a Dropship, so I don't know how you plan on killing one.
The main point here imho: a good player would dodge the scout, from a not-so good defence it would become a total waste of money. And, considering the time/cost (beacon + upgrade, expensive if you don't plan to go for carrier) you need to get "full speed", you've already suffer several drops.
On February 08 2008 18:22 Live2Win wrote: Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Actually perhaps if the protoss makes it right after his stargate finishes. The normal 2 base reaver/carrier build is to make 1 stargate after the shuttle/reaver leaves to harrass, then build the fleet beacon and the second stargate after the first is finished. But during this time, the first stargate is idle.
The protoss COULD build a scout while the fleet beacon/2nd stargate is warping, and use it as a dropship counter, expansion scout or anti-wraith unit to protect shuttles (after all, when terrans go starports they like to make wraith to counter reaver).
Of course in the end this is still a stretch... the reaver support it pointless since you start making your scout AFTER the reaver leaves, so by the time the scout's finished the reaver is either dead or done harrassing and no longer needs the support. Scouting can be done way easier with obs, and defending against dropship isn't exactly something that's difficult with goons. Plus, I think a fleet beacon would warp faster than the scout, thus making the carrier timing late.
Ugh, I just theorized a use for the scout and then crushed it.
with the scout time building, you are better off building the Stargate before the robotics Still, your point is ok, you can build a scout just for kicks while waiting for the fleet beacon, and have 1 carrier a bit delayed.
Rekrul's game was a setup, a bet between him and the terran that he wouldn't be able to win with all scouts. Well, he did win. Why? Because the terran was simply that bad.
I'm autistic against playing "normally", and if I have a choice I always opt for the weird strategy. I've tried all infantry against protoss, using EMP and Lockdown trying to keep reavers and templars useless, I've tried focusing an entire game of TvZ on flaring overlords and massing wraiths, etc. But none of those taccs have sucked as much as when I've wasted money on scouts. It's the unit that Blizzard forgot.
PS: One of the coolest pieces of micro I've seen in an actual public game is Shuttles o' Reavers coupled with disruption web. When done right, it's absolutely humiliating.
Scouts haven't been viable in a reallllly long time.
I think the dropship speed increase put the nail in the coffin.
also corsairs ahve disruption web, i wonder how that build would work. on katrina, go stargate, 1 sair for scouting, beacon, carrier/disruption and goon army. that would be fun~~
Before they nerfed d-web I remember some players going sair scout. Even then I think carriers were a better option.
On February 09 2008 08:06 Meh wrote: PS: One of the coolest pieces of micro I've seen in an actual public game is Shuttles o' Reavers coupled with disruption web. When done right, it's absolutely humiliating.
If PvZ, that could have just been standard reav/sair. If PvT, that terran got bitch raped.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7580/62620af83eb381a6181926flf6.gif)
