EPTAlso when he finally moves out it's always good to attack his force when it's moving across a bridge or a ramp, half of it will be out of range.
! [H] ZvZ vs HydraLurk - Page 3
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Wonders
Australia753 Posts
Also when he finally moves out it's always good to attack his force when it's moving across a bridge or a ramp, half of it will be out of range. | ||
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Blayse
United States9 Posts
If you try mutas he can just spore up and keep expanding while just having his army spread out defending all his bases and youll lose. once you realize hes hydras you shouldnt make a single muta. | ||
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Locked
United States4182 Posts
On August 08 2007 09:16 Blayse wrote: If you try mutas he can just spore up and keep expanding while just having his army spread out defending all his bases and youll lose. once you realize hes hydras you shouldnt make a single muta. lol there's a reason mutaling in zvz is the most dominant strategy for any matchup and it's not because hydras can win but noone uses them | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On August 08 2007 09:16 Blayse wrote: muta ling is wrong against hydras. When he gets a lot of hydras with 1 or 2 lurkers you cant kill his army, especially if he can dance well against mutas. You want to expand again and sunk with lurkers to hold your third base and nat, then use scourge on overlords. He wont be able to crack your three bases and you can spend the extra gas on getting a few queens with broodling and ensnare reserached while still having tons of gas left over. Then you want to go hive and get a bunch of guardings and cracklings or defilers and lings. just use ensnare on his hydra bunch and broodling lurkers and then let the lings finish him off. If you try mutas he can just spore up and keep expanding while just having his army spread out defending all his bases and youll lose. once you realize hes hydras you shouldnt make a single muta. LOL. Wow man youre so gosu. | ||
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
On August 08 2007 09:16 Blayse wrote: muta ling is wrong against hydras. When he gets a lot of hydras with 1 or 2 lurkers you cant kill his army, especially if he can dance well against mutas. You want to expand again and sunk with lurkers to hold your third base and nat, then use scourge on overlords. He wont be able to crack your three bases and you can spend the extra gas on getting a few queens with broodling and ensnare reserached while still having tons of gas left over. Then you want to go hive and get a bunch of guardings and cracklings or defilers and lings. just use ensnare on his hydra bunch and broodling lurkers and then let the lings finish him off. If you try mutas he can just spore up and keep expanding while just having his army spread out defending all his bases and youll lose. once you realize hes hydras you shouldnt make a single muta. This man speaks the truth. The other day, I was playing ZvZ and all I did was mass spore/sunk/lurk/hydras from my base while slowly taking 2 others. Muta ling couldn't do a single thing. 40 minutes later, I was maxed out, attack move, gg. Moral of the made-up story: 10-base guardians > 3-base hydras. | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
i'd rather burrow lings :D | ||
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Metaspace
Austria670 Posts
On August 09 2007 15:53 RtS)Night[Mare wrote: haha, broodlikng the lurkers I'm a noob, but don't you think he has a point there? Ensnare on hydra + broodling on lurks seems viable to me, provided you are fast enough for the micro....and using lings only otherwise seems to me to leave you the gas for a good number of queens to cope with according numbers of lurkers. On the other hand, what I read recently about Ensnare implementation, hydras (max lenght attack animation if I recall correctly) should not be affected really by Ensnare....anyone know about that? | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
At least if you were starting with 12 pool 12 hatch at nat, or some other ecco heavish opening. | ||
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MeOwTheMinXi
Australia59 Posts
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wXs.Havok
Argentina529 Posts
On August 10 2007 14:43 MeOwTheMinXi wrote: zvz shud just be abt mutaling and scourges...any more tech is just uneccessary you need to know how to counter the other techs. Otherwise you just imitate someone else and you will not understand completly the mu | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
The thing about ZvZ vs hydra/lurk is that unless you are truly playing at a newbie level, you ALWAYS have an advantage going in. That doesn\'t guarantee victory because ZvZ is a match that really rests on the blade of a knife... one slip can cost you big time. Simply put, your advantage is in the early/midgame. Your forces are faster and more mobile so you will be ahead in your ability to harrass and therefore effectively contain him. ZvZ games are generally really fast. \"Midgame\" can be as early as like 4 or 5 minutes into the game. Establishing an advantage during that time is CRITICAL! More than 95 percent of all ZvZ games -- even the ones that drag on for a bit longer -- are won or lost during the opening minutes of the game. Vs hydra/lurk, exploiting your early advantage is exceptionally critical since that\'s the advantage your build gives you and failing to capitalize on that is essentially guaranteeing your loss, especially since hydra/lurk has good mid/late game strength IF they can get rolling (which at the highest levels they ALMOST NEVER can successfully do). If you establish the same econ or better, you should easily be in the lead. Basically, if he doesn\'t use lings heavily, then he\'s trying to get double upgraded (spped/range) hydras quickly to combat your vastly more mobile mutas (which don\'t need any upgrades to keep him onhis toes). Use the mutas to nonstop harrass and keep him contained. If you\'re truly doing your job with the muta harrassment, you should be forcing him to get some spores or at the very least be nonstop trying to micro his hydras around his base and since you are faster moving and you don\'t have to worry about terrain so he basically has to predict your muta movements IN ADVANCE with his hydras. Even so, with good micro, even hydra speed/range is not enough for him since you can pick off hydras with good muta micro and keep him completely occupied as you take over more gas expansions. You can also break off one or two mutas to go on a search and destroy mission for any OL not in his base meaning that his map vision is as minimal as possible and since he doesn\'t have air he can\'t do shit about it. If need be, you can even secure a hidden gas expo. He\'ll be forced to at least try to use some lings to scout and with mutas buzzing around, you can easily cut them down. There shouldn\'t be any problem here unless you fail to employ your units properly. If he\'s got better econ, then your pool should be faster or at the very least you should have faster gas (say, 12 pool gas vs 12 pool expo). Use that advantage to get speedlings and force him on the defensive. If he turtles at all, you can easily gain an econ advantage, and if he doesn\'t turtle, then he\'s exploying lings as well and you simply won\'t be fighting against hydra/lurker (he will need ling speed to deal with you properly and so long as you keep pestering, he\'ll keep up with lings... switching to lurk/hydra would be a waste). 1 base muta is a build that provides you with a quick timing pressure and really forces you to excel at timing/pressuring and micro. If you can\'t handle that (if you can\'t do all the things I said properly), then it\'s probably not a smart build for you to use. I\'d have to play a few games to verify timing, but so long as your micro is pretty good, I\'m fairly certain that off 1 base mutas he should be forced to make an evo and get some spores up for defense (at least 1 per base and still you can micro mutas to pick off drones). If he scouts you successfully (which he isn\'t a given since he could in theory scout the wrong way with his OL and with lings you could take out his scouting drone), then another trick you can pull is to gather your larvae as a spire comes up and instead of morphing to mutas, morph all or all but 1 (you can use that 1 for OL hunting) as drones (or lings if you feel a timing ling attack is in order). Depending on what he\'s doing and what you\'re doing, that may or may not work (if you did your job with lings, you should be at a huge advantage if he turtles in preparation for mutas only for you to pop out with something else!). Finally, as far as late game goes.... I\'d have to say that it depends on the map. If there are lots of terrain features that inhibit moving, guardians or held lurkers at a choke can really do a number on him. Using plague or ensnare in conjunction with this can really help. DO NOT use ling/ultra. Dear lord. Late game, he will have a sizeable mass of hydra/lurker and the lurkers will rip apart your lings like nothing and the hydras (with their explosive damage) will be able to do a number on your ultras, especially if he micros so that your ultras don\'t get a good chance to focus fire. Ling/ultra works so well on mnm because the ultras absorb tons of fire while the cracklings swarm them, and even your ultras by themselves do tons of damage. Even with medics, fully upped ultras I think will two hit kill a marine, but I\'d have to check that since, again, it\'s been 8 months since I\'ve touched my SC cd. Also, firebats don\'t have the range that lurkers do. A few lurkers shooting spines at a bunch of lings will decimate them over a larger area, and unlike the firebats, lurkers can do a fair bit of work against the ultras as well. In other words, dark swarm isn\'t very effective. Meanwhile, if he is having troubles with your air, he will be tempted to get dark swarm in conjunction with his hydras, but that will only give your lings an advantage that his lurkers will be forced to counter, and if you did enough of your job early, your gas advantage should be high enough that he\'s forced to almost exclusively stick to hydras with spell casters (queen ensnare also helps his hydras), perhaps with a few lurkers for defense in case you counter with a flood of lings. All of this is VERY GENERAL and all is map and build order dependent. The map I generally like to visualize ZvZ on is Rush Hour since virtually all ZvZ openings are viable there, but Lost Temple would be another good map to visualize it on. For other maps like Paranoid Android or something, the advice I would give would be completely different, so bear in mind that the map you use has a gigantic influence in how you play, regardless of the MU. Hopefully you already know that and don\'t need those words of wisdom. -- Basically, the fact of the matter is that if you fall behind to the point where your aerial force can no longer at the least keep him on his toes, then you\'re up a creek without a paddle. Use lings and mutas to pressure and if you do your job, he will either be in a bad position during the mid/late game or he will make a glaring mistake somwhere along the way and when he falters you will be able to capitalize. Most of the time (perhaps even all of the time though I suppose that when it comes to strategy there is a counter example for everything), you shouldn\'t lose to hydra/lurk unless you are out played. | ||
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