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hey there
i just played a ZvZ where i did a 1base muta build while my opponent FE'd. the game turned then into muta vs hydra, and as he managed to set up enough defence prevent my muta harass, i teched to ultra/ling because my muta force wouldnt survive an open battle against the hydras.
seeing this, he added many lurkers to his hydra force, which wrecked havoc to my ultra/ling and were protected against my mutas by the hydralisks.
i think i only won this game because i had more bases and better economy, because i didnt know how to deal with all his hydralurk force.
so what unit combo is the best playing hydralurk? every groundunit of zerg gets slayed by the lurkers, and even with ultralisks i lose all those lings. air on the other hand is no option because mutas die to hydras, and guards are too gas heavy and slow to have them ready in sufficient numbers...
should i just go hydras as well? or is there any counterunitcombination that i just forgot? maybe hydra/plague, or mass hydra as he did before? i'd like to know what unit choice is best against hydra/lurk.
here's the replay i spoke of; however i'm only average player:
To the Replay
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I would say just keep on massing mutas.
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On July 25 2007 13:20 flothefreak wrote:hey there i just played a ZvZ where i did a 1base muta build while my opponent FE'd. the game turned then into muta vs hydra, and as he managed to set up enough defence prevent my muta harass, i teched to ultra/ling because my muta force wouldnt survive an open battle against the hydras. seeing this, he added many lurkers to his hydra force, which wrecked havoc to my ultra/ling and were protected against my mutas by the hydralisks. i think i only won this game because i had more bases and better economy, because i didnt know how to deal with all his hydralurk force. so what unit combo is the best playing hydralurk? every groundunit of zerg gets slayed by the lurkers, and even with ultralisks i lose all those lings. air on the other hand is no option because mutas die to hydras, and guards are too gas heavy and slow to have them ready in sufficient numbers... should i just go hydras as well? or is there any counterunitcombination that i just forgot? maybe hydra/plague, or mass hydra as he did before? i'd like to know what unit choice is best against hydra/lurk. here's the replay i spoke of; however i'm only average player: To the Replay
You mean below average In zvz the general rule is if your opponent is expanding you expand as well, immediately. Mutas are the perfect counter to hydra. Go muta/speed ling, target the lurks with mutas if he is trying to advance. Since you will have map control, continue to mass mutas while upgrading armor and adding more gas expansions. Remember hydras only do 5 damage to mutas/lings. In order for him to fight you effectively he will have to mass a large number of hydras. By then you should have at least 3 gases(4 really...) and can easily slaughter his hydra/lurk army with muta only. Also keep in mind unless he has massed spore by his mineral line you can move in a and cripple is economy(just target the drones, kill some and run away) as soon as he moves his hydras away.
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Calgary26004 Posts
First off, going Ultras against Hydras is retarded. Hydras are the counter to Ultras, so yea..
The counter to Hydra is +1 melee Zerglings and +1 carapace Mutalisks. The Hydra build takes a long time to get set up; He requires Spores at each base, 2 Evolution chambers, many Drones and both Hydralisk upgrades. In the time that's all being researched you should at least have your natural, begin +1 and +1. Now you play this like Muta vs Terran metal.
You never attack him. You just fly around with Mutas dicking around and bugging him. Never let him get another free expansion. When you expand, don't expand close to yourself, meaning he'll commit his army to kill your expansion and can't simply follow up to your main. Use your mobility. If he comes for your expansion, counter at his main with Mutas and his natural with Zerglings. If he comes at your natural, do the same thing and Sunken up your main - eventually bringing your Mutas back just in time to defend your main. If he leaves some of his army at home to help defend from your counter, stall and snipe Hydras, and eventually at the moment he engages the Sunkens at your natural, flank with Zerglings and Mutas.
Keep in mind Zerglings deal the damage and Mutalisks take the damage. If he's added Lurkers you need to avoid them like the plague, sniping them with Mutas if possible and them crushing the remaining army with Zerglings.
If he gets to +2/+2 and you're not ahead in geysers, you fucked up and you'll probably lose. If he gets to Defilers you're also in trouble, again unless you're ahead in geysers. If he's that far ahead in upgrades, but you're ahead in bases, it's often a good idea to simply switch to HydraLurker yourself. Often he won't have Overlord speed, allowing you to secure expansions and catch up in upgrades while he gets it.
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well i saw my mutas outmassed by the hydralisks, so i decided to switch - and ultraling seemed fine to me as they work against t and p as well. i am no zerg player however, so this was a bad idea it seems. i know that usually lings do the damage when playing muta, but as the lurkers prevented usage of them, i was facing hydras with only mutalisks...
so basically i should have made as many mutas as possible and try to stay even in grades?
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On July 25 2007 14:21 flothefreak wrote:
well i saw my mutas outmassed by the hydralisks, so i decided to switch - and ultraling seemed fine to me as they work against t and p as well. i am no zerg player however, so this was a bad idea it seems. i know that usually lings do the damage when playing muta, but as the lurkers prevented usage of them, i was facing hydras with only mutalisks...
so basically i should have made as many mutas as possible and try to stay even in grades?
Yep, play defensively while massing mutas and upgrading while taking more gases...thats the just of it.
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Mass ling, mass muta, and ensnare is flashy  .
Mass upped ling and mass upped muta is standard, though.
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United States24810 Posts
On July 25 2007 14:26 il0seonpurpose wrote:
hmm improve ur apm first
I haven't seen or analyzed the replay so I don't know just how low we are talking about, but I do feel like this isn't helpful at all. If he has a very low apm that does limit, to some extent, which strategies he can or cannot do. It's just like how I wouldn't use the bee suit even though I'm developing an understanding of it because I don't have awesome multitasking capabilities like bisu does. But to tell someone to improve their apm without offering any alternative strategies in the meantime (since using mutas effectively can be somewhat taxing on newer players) is rude.
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On July 26 2007 02:40 micronesia wrote:... (since using mutas effectively can be somewhat taxing on newer players) is rude.
Think about why muta micro is taxing on new players.
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On July 26 2007 02:25 5HITCOMBO wrote:Mass ling, mass muta, and ensnare is flashy stupid . Mass upped ling and mass upped muta is standard, though.
fixed it for ya
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United States24810 Posts
On July 26 2007 03:54 5HITCOMBO wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2007 02:40 micronesia wrote:On July 25 2007 14:26 il0seonpurpose wrote:
hmm improve ur apm first ... (since using mutas effectively can be somewhat taxing on newer players) is rude. Think about why muta micro is taxing on new players.
That is exactly what I meant (and why I said it).
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On July 26 2007 04:44 SoMuchBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2007 02:25 5HITCOMBO wrote:Mass ling, mass muta, and ensnare is flashy stupid . Mass upped ling and mass upped muta is standard, though. fixed it for ya Ensnare is mostly useful when you are going Hydra in ZvZ. I dont know how well it works when you are facing hydra(since I have never tried it and never see someone use it) but you risk falling behind with that bonus cost right?
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Wasn't a guardian rush the old school counter for a hydra-based build?
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my apm is usually somewhere between 100-130, if it's microintensive early game (short) it goes up to ~140. i played protoss only most of my bw time, i do play random now however. i may switch back to protoss or zerg soon to improve. micro was my strength back then actually, esp. harassing with reaverdrop/dt/storms and muta when playing zerg. my weakness is macro/multitasking mostly and flaws in doing a perfect timed build (like, with the exact same build, i get behind in PvP with 1 probe for example, so 14/17 vs 15/17...this little difference increases proportionally ofc =( )
i am motivated to improve lately, so i plan to seek a trainer who can get me to a higher level. be it with random and general advice in all MUs, be it with zerg from which i need to learn the mechanics some better, be it protoss where i am clearly above zerg and esp terrans...
that is why i posted this thread here
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United States24810 Posts
On July 26 2007 07:17 flothefreak wrote:
my weakness is macro/multitasking mostly and flaws in doing a perfect timed build (like, with the exact same build, i get behind in PvP with 1 probe for example, so 14/17 vs 15/17...this little difference increases proportionally ofc =( )
Are the flaws because you don't know the proper timing, or because you physically screw something up? If it's the former you can just watch a good replay to get the timing down; if it's the latter you should be able to make up for it easily with practice and experience like everyone else.
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get yourself some lurkers, kill overlords with your mutas and set a evil badass hold lurker trap.
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On July 25 2007 13:20 flothefreak wrote:
i think i only won this game because i had more bases and better economy
Well damn, there ya go
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140+ apm is sufficient to weild Z very well, but basically listen to what chill said. Please don't post retarded things like +1 apm then come back, it just doens't help, unless he's like 20 apm, we aren't all koran, we don't push 350+, i can macro and micro and handle mutas off of 170 fine. 140 is fine for it aswel.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
On July 26 2007 22:11 MoNKeYSpanKeR wrote:
140+ apm is sufficient to weild Z very well, but basically listen to what chill said. Please don't post retarded things like +1 apm then come back, it just doens't help, unless he's like 20 apm, we aren't all koran, we don't push 350+, i can macro and micro and handle mutas off of 170 fine. 140 is fine for it aswel.
and I was sitting here wondering who the hell koran was ~_~
(hell, i can't even spell that correctly.. keep spelling korean ;; )
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EPT
