There's a build that I've found to be super effective at high ranks on ladder PvT which is convenient because I cannot play normal PvT for shit. For credit, I'm pretty sure I saw Nony use it in TSL2.
It's basically a goon rush except you throw in a 12 nexus to fuck with their build and make the Terran hurt itself in its confusion. Works best on 2-3 player maps because if it's not scouted early the Terran won't have time to allin.
8 pylon near ramp or choke 12 nex, then mine minerals at nat 12 gate (returning probe will be next to your 8p at 150 mins) 13 gas 3 probes on gas 15 core 15 zealot 17 gate nex completes as first zealot completes, send 3 probes to nat because that'll leave you with 9 in main which is the efficiency you're looking for 17 zealot (1st zealot completes as nex finishes so you get supply from that) 19 probe at nat (that'll get you up to mining 4 patches in nat and 9 in main lol) 20 goon range Scout with first zealot 20 goon Scout with second zealot 22 goon 24 pylon 25-26 probe at each nexus (send probes produced in main to nat)
Now ideally you'll be getting bunker rushed around this time and you'll discover it when a zealot blindly walks into their out of position marines/scvs. Micro it as best you can but you'll lose out there. Pull the second zealot back to come at their rush from behind as your 2 goons come out.
Depending on scv numbers you may want to fight with zealot/goon/probes but the Terrans at 2200 generally know how to bunker rush so I normally just send probes straight back to mine in the main. The main is so undersaturated you'll get good value from them there. Keep your goons alive and kill what you can but retreat and sacrifice nexus. Remember, their tank is super delayed but your goon range is getting rushed. If your 2nd zealot is still alive then keep it alive and out on map, you'll want it for eating mines.
Two possible developments from here. If you bought a fair bit of time then you'll be getting goon range before your nex dies. You can often snipe the bunker and save the nexus with the 6 goons you'll have by this point. It depends how many scvs they have and how much commitment they put into it. You don't really care about the nexus though, you've got fuck all in the way of probes anyway. The bunker is mostly just something that stands between you and your true goal, goon rushing the Terran. So if possible just run straight past the bunker and counter rush. Terran will be taking a fast expansion off of, generally, a vulture with mines or a tank. If it's a tank you've won, 6 range goons and a zealot vs a tank is easy. If it's a vulture with mines then you'll need to eat the mines but you should do so. Let the zealot eat 2, let each goon eat no more than 1, you can still kill him. Killing most of his scvs is good enough too, the bunker will always fall to range goons eventually and you can retake your nat easily enough. Make pylons as needed and goons constantly. Make probes as you can but this is a goon rush build.
Weirdly the counter to this is the Terran not responding at all, continuing to make scvs, and throwing down their own CC in a timely manner with mines/siege/bunker and then pushing you later. They don't need to push you early because you've already killed all your own probes by not making any. You've literally got 17 probes for ages because that's all you need to support your 2 gateways. The economic damage is already done, the Terran just needs to not die to the goon rush. But for some reason Terrans feel compelled to delay everything whenever they see a 12 nexus so if you can still get a bunch of ranged dragoons in a timely manner it's a freewin.
Not the best I've ever done, I cornered a goon early, had a few others get bugged out and stop in bunker range, got less value from zealot than I should have (it was afk attacking a rax for ages), but it works well enough to show that there will be a point where I have 6 goons in his base vs 2 tanks.
So this is just a variant of a 12 nex build (some players go 2 gate no gas, some 2 gate with gas, some go 1 gate goon as you pointed).
My issue is that I hardly ever lose to this if I rush. When you kill the nex I just siege expand with turrets and P is simply behind. Obviously if its cross position or a specific map that allows it, it will give significant adventage to P but it's just a gamble like CC 1st etc.
On May 07 2020 06:31 kogeT wrote: So this is just a variant of a 12 nex build (some players go 2 gate no gas, some 2 gate with gas, some go 1 gate goon as you pointed).
My issue is that I hardly ever lose to this if I rush. When you kill the nex I just siege expand with turrets and P is simply behind. Obviously if its cross position or a specific map that allows it, it will give significant adventage to P but it's just a gamble like CC 1st etc.
I'm not sure you're getting how quickly you'll have 6 goons at your ramp with this. Wanna test it on bnet? It's nothing like a regular 12 nex. The build I'd say it was most like would be 10 15 gate. Imagine a 10 15 goon allin but the Protoss builds and sacrifices a nex (slowing them 30s) and the Terran goes for a bunker rush (slowing them 60s). This isn't an eco build, it's not like a 12 nex or a CC 1st, the only thing the nexus does is bait a bunker rush from the Terran.
12 nex is an eco build, this is a goon rush allin pretending to be an eco build to bait the Terran into delaying siege/mines by bunker rushing.
On May 07 2020 06:31 kogeT wrote: So this is just a variant of a 12 nex build (some players go 2 gate no gas, some 2 gate with gas, some go 1 gate goon as you pointed).
My issue is that I hardly ever lose to this if I rush. When you kill the nex I just siege expand with turrets and P is simply behind. Obviously if its cross position or a specific map that allows it, it will give significant adventage to P but it's just a gamble like CC 1st etc.
I'm not sure you're getting how quickly you'll have 6 goons at your ramp with this. Wanna test it on bnet? It's nothing like a regular 12 nex. The build I'd say it was most like would be 10 15 gate. Imagine a 10 15 goon allin but the Protoss builds and sacrifices a nex (slowing them 30s) and the Terran goes for a bunker rush (slowing them 60s). This isn't an eco build, it's not like a 12 nex or a CC 1st, the only thing the nexus does is bait a bunker rush from the Terran.
12 nex is an eco build, this is a goon rush allin pretending to be an eco build to bait the Terran into delaying siege/mines by bunker rushing.
12 Nexus into 2gate goon range isn't an all in, and if you try to play it as an all in you will suffer, it is an econ build... it is not really comparable to 10-15 gate, I understand where you are coming from but um....once the 2gate goon attack fails, you are forced to transition.
EDIT : Nice guide though, I really enjoy this build and I have actually have been using it variation of it a lot on ladder.
On May 07 2020 06:31 kogeT wrote: So this is just a variant of a 12 nex build (some players go 2 gate no gas, some 2 gate with gas, some go 1 gate goon as you pointed).
My issue is that I hardly ever lose to this if I rush. When you kill the nex I just siege expand with turrets and P is simply behind. Obviously if its cross position or a specific map that allows it, it will give significant adventage to P but it's just a gamble like CC 1st etc.
I'm not sure you're getting how quickly you'll have 6 goons at your ramp with this. Wanna test it on bnet? It's nothing like a regular 12 nex. The build I'd say it was most like would be 10 15 gate. Imagine a 10 15 goon allin but the Protoss builds and sacrifices a nex (slowing them 30s) and the Terran goes for a bunker rush (slowing them 60s). This isn't an eco build, it's not like a 12 nex or a CC 1st, the only thing the nexus does is bait a bunker rush from the Terran.
12 nex is an eco build, this is a goon rush allin pretending to be an eco build to bait the Terran into delaying siege/mines by bunker rushing.
12 Nexus into 2gate goon range isn't an all in, and if you try to play it as an all in you will suffer, it is an econ build... it is not really comparable to 10-15 gate, I understand where you are coming from but um....once the 2gate goon attack fails, you are forced to transition.
EDIT : Nice guide though, I really enjoy this build and I have actually have been using it variation of it a lot on ladder.
If they bunker rush you it doesn't fail. And it's not an eco build. Eco builds have probes lol.
You’re talking about a different build to the one I described above. There are 12 nex eco builds but this isn’t one of them. It works just as well if you never even mine from the nat nexus, it exists only to be traded for a bunker rush.
I like the idea of this but only if there is a bunker rush. I can't imagine just cutting my probes and then throwing my hands up in the air if the bunker rush just never comes - that part doesn't make sense to me.
Isn't there a way to just produce probes normally and then switch to this once a bunker rush is a for sure thing? I mean, if I was to lose my Nexus I'd go all in anyways.
I never 12 nex and I especially don't 12 nex vs higher MMR terrans so this strat is outside of my wheel house.
I appreciate the guide. I will memorize this and add it to my arsenal for those occasions I find myself in this position.
You’ll know he’s not bunker rushing you when you don’t get bunker rushed but by then the damage is mostly done, you're a bunch of workers behind. Transition back to probes then and hope for the best but you’re behind because you have very few workers. Against a decent Terran you might as well leave if they nat bunker siege expand. There are 12 nex builds that can transition normally against a variety of openers but this isn’t one of them. This is freewin vs bunker rush, loss vs safe Terran opener.
On May 07 2020 09:55 KwarK wrote: You’ll know he’s not bunker rushing you when you don’t get bunker rushed but by then the damage is mostly done, you're a bunch of workers behind. Transition back to probes then and hope for the best but you’re behind because you have very few workers. Against a decent Terran you might as well leave if they nat bunker siege expand. There are 12 nex builds that can transition normally against a variety of openers but this isn’t one of them. This is freewin vs bunker rush, loss vs safe Terran opener.
Indeed. I appreciate the guide. This is a gamblers build. Cool idea though.
We can do a game later today to try, but I still dont understand how is this supposed to kill terran. Upon killing the nexus, everything goes back except a bunker and 1-2 scvs. The follow up will be a tank and bunker in natural, and with a bunker in your natural there is plenty of time to add a marine and put scv's at bunker to repair (in natural). As soon as there is 1 tank and bunker with SCVs repairing, there is no way for P to break in..?
On May 07 2020 15:56 kogeT wrote: We can do a game later today to try, but I still dont understand how is this supposed to kill terran. Upon killing the nexus, everything goes back except a bunker and 1-2 scvs. The follow up will be a tank and bunker in natural, and with a bunker in your natural there is plenty of time to add a marine and put scv's at bunker to repair (in natural). As soon as there is 1 tank and bunker with SCVs repairing, there is no way for P to break in..?
The goons run past the bunker at the Protoss natural and counter rush.
On May 07 2020 15:56 kogeT wrote: We can do a game later today to try, but I still dont understand how is this supposed to kill terran. Upon killing the nexus, everything goes back except a bunker and 1-2 scvs. The follow up will be a tank and bunker in natural, and with a bunker in your natural there is plenty of time to add a marine and put scv's at bunker to repair (in natural). As soon as there is 1 tank and bunker with SCVs repairing, there is no way for P to break in..?
The goons run past the bunker at the Protoss natural and counter rush.
Great idea in theory, but it is dependent solely on the Terran making mistakes it seems.
on neo sylphid one of the map most vulnerable to allin, the efficacy will be lower on on ramped mains
terran response to the goon rush is suboptimal; pull scvs rather late, delayed micro lost a tank cheaply. also in a panic forgot to repair the bunker back at the (toss) nat even though there are 4 idle scvs there.
i feel with proper terran response they wont die to the counterpush ever, but you can at least force their expo to be delayed for a while. and with this particular build where probe production is halted for a long while i guess it about even for both sides.
What if terran simply makes mines? Pretty sure mine timing with bunker rush to kill the nexus is before your goons can pressure terrans natural (after the nexus dies)
I don't really understand. This is a delayed goon rush all-in that succeeds only if the terran stops scouting after initially scouting a 12 nexus? I guess it could work, but only if you already know how the terran is going to play.
I don't see a reason to play like this. I get in theory what you're trying to share here, and it makes sense, kind of. Basically, if they bunker rush you, you'll have 6 ranged goons really quickly. But this still does not guarantee anything, except maybe the fact that you'd delay their CC/kill it, but you're still behind on workers and probably still massively behind in the game. Also, little mis-micro basically just loses the game for you outright as well. I don't think it's advisable or feasible as you get more competitive to play "Assumption based" -- meaning, just blindly assuming what your opponent will do to get 6 goons out quickly. This won't win you games in the long run...
It's just too risky, too assumption-based on many angles of what the opponent will do, and I feel like there's just no reason to do this...?
I would never do it personally, but I appreciate the creativity in some sense and using some level of probability that a Terran will bunker rush so you're pre-emptively doing all this.
On May 07 2020 22:25 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't really understand. This is a delayed goon rush all-in that succeeds only if the terran stops scouting after initially scouting a 12 nexus? I guess it could work, but only if you already know how the terran is going to play.
Apparently A rank Terrans are reasonably predictable, they see a nexus and they send scvs, delay machine shop, and make too many marines. Their assumption seems to be that the nexus matters and that killing it leads to victory. Whereas the Protoss knows that only the machine shop mine/siege timing matters. You’re right that if they counted probes when scouting they could probably figure out that something is weird but nobody can count at A rank. Koget here is thinking “I’d never lose to something so stupid” and he’s probably right but I’d never beat him straight up anyway so that’s not really the point for me. For the 99% of Terrans worse than Koget I’d 100% use this cheese.
EPT
