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[PvT Build order] Beating Terrans with FE build - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43182 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-07 15:18:10
May 07 2020 15:12 GMT
#21
On May 07 2020 22:03 EndingLife wrote:
What if terran simply makes mines? Pretty sure mine timing with bunker rush to kill the nexus is before your goons can pressure terrans natural (after the nexus dies)

Bunker rushing without sending vultures will generally not result in killing the nexus. A Terran rushing mines will survive but fail to kill the expo. Which is why, in my experience, they don’t do it but instead delay machine shop for 2-3 vultures, killing the nexus but letting goons get on their factory.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
EndingLife
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States1597 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-07 15:20:00
May 07 2020 15:18 GMT
#22
On May 08 2020 00:12 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2020 22:03 EndingLife wrote:
What if terran simply makes mines? Pretty sure mine timing with bunker rush to kill the nexus is before your goons can pressure terrans natural (after the nexus dies)

Bunker rushing without sending vultures will generally not result in killing the nexus. A Terran rushing mines will survive but fail to kill the expo. Which is why, in my experience, they don’t do it but instead delay machine shop for 2-3 vultures.

What's the goon timing at terran natural like if terran does a normal bunker rush with marines, scv and 1 or either 2 vultures, then machine shop after? Does it come before mines? Terran can also threaten runby to your main with vultures to buy time for mines for reinforcement vultures at home. If it comes before mines, the 6 goon one shotting scv's repairing the bunker at home can do serious damage... The biggest factor here for terran is scouting and threatening vulture runby to buy time for mines, tank, etc.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43182 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-07 15:32:44
May 07 2020 15:29 GMT
#23
On May 08 2020 00:00 SuGo wrote:
I don't see a reason to play like this.

It’s an opt out of PvT. If I could select to not queue for that matchup then I would but I can’t so I have a cheese which I’ve found to be effective at the level I play at.

That said, assumption based play is a huge part of my playstyle. I generally just show the opponent a thing, kill their scout, and then switch to blind countering the counter to what I showed. Always having a build order advantage is the only way to be competitive with fundamentals as bad as mine are. The reason I don’t do safe standard builds and win with those is A) I don’t know any and B) I can’t.

Or if I wanted to be slightly more generous to me I could argue that 20 years of playing has given me good instincts in a game that has left the standard pattern and turned chaotic so the faster I make a game go weird the better. The opponent generally doesn’t play against super weird shit whereas all my games go weird and I adapt better to chaos than better players with more reliance on standard play.

A 12 nex says that the moment they scout it they’re playing my game. I’m dictating the flow, they win or lose based on the outcome of scenarios I have forced them into which gives me a huge inherent advantage. Unless they don’t bunker rush me, of course, in which case I don’t have any of that initiative.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
SuGo
Profile Joined March 2013
United States681 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-07 17:01:51
May 07 2020 16:59 GMT
#24
On May 08 2020 00:29 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 08 2020 00:00 SuGo wrote:
I don't see a reason to play like this.

It’s an opt out of PvT. If I could select to not queue for that matchup then I would but I can’t so I have a cheese which I’ve found to be effective at the level I play at.

That said, assumption based play is a huge part of my playstyle. I generally just show the opponent a thing, kill their scout, and then switch to blind countering the counter to what I showed. Always having a build order advantage is the only way to be competitive with fundamentals as bad as mine are. The reason I don’t do safe standard builds and win with those is A) I don’t know any and B) I can’t.

Or if I wanted to be slightly more generous to me I could argue that 20 years of playing has given me good instincts in a game that has left the standard pattern and turned chaotic so the faster I make a game go weird the better. The opponent generally doesn’t play against super weird shit whereas all my games go weird and I adapt better to chaos than better players with more reliance on standard play.

A 12 nex says that the moment they scout it they’re playing my game. I’m dictating the flow, they win or lose based on the outcome of scenarios I have forced them into which gives me a huge inherent advantage. Unless they don’t bunker rush me, of course, in which case I don’t have any of that initiative.


Yup, I get this mentality. And the times we've played, I agree - it is NOT standard by any means, it's like dt into archon attacks and things like that. While I don't find it effective to work against me (no offense), I do understand your rationale. Things like this is going to make you better than your peers (e.g. people in your MMR range) and win games. And I have no doubt that things like this would win you games in your peer group.

Also I do understand with your "opt out of PvT" mentality. Some time ago (well, years ago), I used to be like this in PvZ and just go 2gate in base, and then 2gate outside proxy and just go all-in zealot Lol. Yours isn't as rash as that, but I totally get the concept.

Good luck man, you got the potential no doubt. I think if you worked on some weaknesses which you clearly acknowledge here you could be much better.
LaStScan
Profile Joined May 2011
Korea (South)1289 Posts
May 07 2020 23:58 GMT
#25
I don't like the build order. too much probe cutting. I recommend 12 nexus 2 zeal 2 goon build. for greediness, 1 gate is fine.
Trying my best for ASL, ASTL
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2040 Posts
May 08 2020 08:53 GMT
#26
I played vs Kwark yesterday. The timing is in fact really fast but as long as you have any idea what you are doing there is no issue defending it.
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
SirGlinG
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden933 Posts
May 08 2020 14:22 GMT
#27
Kwark did u stream the game vs Koget?

Gets weird when your opponent knows what's coming, it's a strat depending on the surprise factor, an overreaction.

I watched a bit yesterday. Like the stream of thought while playing.
Not my chair. Not my problem. That's what I say
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43182 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-08 22:13:37
May 08 2020 22:12 GMT
#28
On May 08 2020 17:53 kogeT wrote:
I played vs Kwark yesterday. The timing is in fact really fast but as long as you have any idea what you are doing there is no issue defending it.

I’m okay with this because “any idea what you are doing” is a standard few Terrans I play meet.

Koget held it off but he also surrounded and trapped my first 2 goons with scvs when I tried to get by and preemptively had 6 scvs at his natural when I went for his tanks (1 of the 2 died, one survived on 17hp when I attacked). I explain that with Koget being way better at micro than me rather than something inherent to the build.

Build doesn’t work on Koget but I’d expect it could reliably get results on 2100s and lower. I spent a few hours searching for Terrans to try it on on ladder but I kept running into Protoss l, Zerg, and proxy BBS.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Grouhh
Profile Joined May 2019
57 Posts
May 09 2020 13:17 GMT
#29
On May 09 2020 07:12 KwarK wrote:
Build doesn’t work on Koget but I’d expect it could reliably get results on 2100s and lower.
Oh please, someone needs to try this on Artosis
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10214 Posts
May 10 2020 02:28 GMT
#30
Leave it to KwarK to come up with a 2020 non-Longitude 10/15 haha.

In all seriousness, I think it would be great if you put together a rep pack. All games in which you attempt it, wins and losses, and then consider the winrate therein vs. your overall PvT winrate. I think that might silence the haters.

Does this strat seem like it has upwards mobility? Probably not. But shit, if it wins at 2100, it's good enough for 99% of the population.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2040 Posts
May 10 2020 10:31 GMT
#31
I mean if Bonyth played that would obviously be a different story, but he can also make 1 zealot and kill me so w/e I guess lol.
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43182 Posts
May 10 2020 16:27 GMT
#32
On May 10 2020 11:28 Jealous wrote:
Leave it to KwarK to come up with a 2020 non-Longitude 10/15 haha.

In all seriousness, I think it would be great if you put together a rep pack. All games in which you attempt it, wins and losses, and then consider the winrate therein vs. your overall PvT winrate. I think that might silence the haters.

Does this strat seem like it has upwards mobility? Probably not. But shit, if it wins at 2100, it's good enough for 99% of the population.

Starting this project.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
ZakRoM
Profile Joined December 2018
Costa Rica54 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-14 18:23:29
May 14 2020 18:23 GMT
#33
I'm interested in the results, post them when you have them please. In the meanwhile gonna see if this works in C rank lol.
Chameleon
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
United States604 Posts
May 29 2020 12:30 GMT
#34
Interesting but I feel like that bunker rush response to the fast nex only happens half the time at best. Do you just lose to the vulture/drop response too or does that have some play with good building placement?
TL's #1 Horang2 fan
Anc13nt
Profile Blog Joined October 2017
1557 Posts
May 29 2020 13:29 GMT
#35
what if terran puts the siege tank on higher ground and drills scv? I feel like even with 6 goon it would be hard to kill terran.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43182 Posts
May 29 2020 14:44 GMT
#36
On May 29 2020 22:29 Anc13nt wrote:
what if terran puts the siege tank on higher ground and drills scv? I feel like even with 6 goon it would be hard to kill terran.

Then you lose. A perfect Terran read and response on a ramp map does well against this.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43182 Posts
May 29 2020 14:45 GMT
#37
On May 29 2020 21:30 Chameleon wrote:
Interesting but I feel like that bunker rush response to the fast nex only happens half the time at best. Do you just lose to the vulture/drop response too or does that have some play with good building placement?

I’ve stopped using it on 4 player maps and built in a “I went 12 nex” in chat timing at 2:20 now to up the bunker rush frequency. It does decently vs 1 base because 2 nexus low saturation is still an okay income, how it does vs drop would depend entirely on the players.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10214 Posts
May 29 2020 16:48 GMT
#38
On May 29 2020 23:45 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 29 2020 21:30 Chameleon wrote:
Interesting but I feel like that bunker rush response to the fast nex only happens half the time at best. Do you just lose to the vulture/drop response too or does that have some play with good building placement?

I’ve stopped using it on 4 player maps and built in a “I went 12 nex” in chat timing at 2:20 now to up the bunker rush frequency. It does decently vs 1 base because 2 nexus low saturation is still an okay income, how it does vs drop would depend entirely on the players.

LOL

Use all tools available to you in order to secure victory, makes sense.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
00Zarathustra
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
Bolivia419 Posts
May 30 2020 15:18 GMT
#39
On May 08 2020 17:53 kogeT wrote:
I played vs Kwark yesterday. The timing is in fact really fast but as long as you have any idea what you are doing there is no issue defending it.

Someone show him this build. Maybe he will make it mainstream and Terrans will stop bunker rushing. ^^
Zarathustra "You can't spell aNal_Rape without Nal_Ra"
noname_
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
459 Posts
May 31 2020 13:46 GMT
#40
You can stack attack on ladder any time, as it turns out it makes 12 nex nearly invincible.
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