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United States43588 Posts
On May 07 2020 22:03 EndingLife wrote:
What if terran simply makes mines? Pretty sure mine timing with bunker rush to kill the nexus is before your goons can pressure terrans natural (after the nexus dies)
Bunker rushing without sending vultures will generally not result in killing the nexus. A Terran rushing mines will survive but fail to kill the expo. Which is why, in my experience, they don’t do it but instead delay machine shop for 2-3 vultures, killing the nexus but letting goons get on their factory.
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On May 08 2020 00:12 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2020 22:03 EndingLife wrote:
What if terran simply makes mines? Pretty sure mine timing with bunker rush to kill the nexus is before your goons can pressure terrans natural (after the nexus dies) Bunker rushing without sending vultures will generally not result in killing the nexus. A Terran rushing mines will survive but fail to kill the expo. Which is why, in my experience, they don’t do it but instead delay machine shop for 2-3 vultures.
What's the goon timing at terran natural like if terran does a normal bunker rush with marines, scv and 1 or either 2 vultures, then machine shop after? Does it come before mines? Terran can also threaten runby to your main with vultures to buy time for mines for reinforcement vultures at home. If it comes before mines, the 6 goon one shotting scv's repairing the bunker at home can do serious damage... The biggest factor here for terran is scouting and threatening vulture runby to buy time for mines, tank, etc.
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United States43588 Posts
On May 08 2020 00:00 SuGo wrote:
I don't see a reason to play like this.
It’s an opt out of PvT. If I could select to not queue for that matchup then I would but I can’t so I have a cheese which I’ve found to be effective at the level I play at.
That said, assumption based play is a huge part of my playstyle. I generally just show the opponent a thing, kill their scout, and then switch to blind countering the counter to what I showed. Always having a build order advantage is the only way to be competitive with fundamentals as bad as mine are. The reason I don’t do safe standard builds and win with those is A) I don’t know any and B) I can’t.
Or if I wanted to be slightly more generous to me I could argue that 20 years of playing has given me good instincts in a game that has left the standard pattern and turned chaotic so the faster I make a game go weird the better. The opponent generally doesn’t play against super weird shit whereas all my games go weird and I adapt better to chaos than better players with more reliance on standard play.
A 12 nex says that the moment they scout it they’re playing my game. I’m dictating the flow, they win or lose based on the outcome of scenarios I have forced them into which gives me a huge inherent advantage. Unless they don’t bunker rush me, of course, in which case I don’t have any of that initiative.
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On May 08 2020 00:29 KwarK wrote:It’s an opt out of PvT. If I could select to not queue for that matchup then I would but I can’t so I have a cheese which I’ve found to be effective at the level I play at. That said, assumption based play is a huge part of my playstyle. I generally just show the opponent a thing, kill their scout, and then switch to blind countering the counter to what I showed. Always having a build order advantage is the only way to be competitive with fundamentals as bad as mine are. The reason I don’t do safe standard builds and win with those is A) I don’t know any and B) I can’t. Or if I wanted to be slightly more generous to me I could argue that 20 years of playing has given me good instincts in a game that has left the standard pattern and turned chaotic so the faster I make a game go weird the better. The opponent generally doesn’t play against super weird shit whereas all my games go weird and I adapt better to chaos than better players with more reliance on standard play. A 12 nex says that the moment they scout it they’re playing my game. I’m dictating the flow, they win or lose based on the outcome of scenarios I have forced them into which gives me a huge inherent advantage. Unless they don’t bunker rush me, of course, in which case I don’t have any of that initiative.
Yup, I get this mentality. And the times we've played, I agree - it is NOT standard by any means, it's like dt into archon attacks and things like that. While I don't find it effective to work against me (no offense), I do understand your rationale. Things like this is going to make you better than your peers (e.g. people in your MMR range) and win games. And I have no doubt that things like this would win you games in your peer group.
Also I do understand with your "opt out of PvT" mentality. Some time ago (well, years ago), I used to be like this in PvZ and just go 2gate in base, and then 2gate outside proxy and just go all-in zealot Lol. Yours isn't as rash as that, but I totally get the concept.
Good luck man, you got the potential no doubt. I think if you worked on some weaknesses which you clearly acknowledge here you could be much better.
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I don't like the build order. too much probe cutting. I recommend 12 nexus 2 zeal 2 goon build. for greediness, 1 gate is fine.
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I played vs Kwark yesterday. The timing is in fact really fast but as long as you have any idea what you are doing there is no issue defending it.
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Kwark did u stream the game vs Koget?
Gets weird when your opponent knows what's coming, it's a strat depending on the surprise factor, an overreaction.
I watched a bit yesterday. Like the stream of thought while playing.
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United States43588 Posts
On May 08 2020 17:53 kogeT wrote:
I played vs Kwark yesterday. The timing is in fact really fast but as long as you have any idea what you are doing there is no issue defending it.
I’m okay with this because “any idea what you are doing” is a standard few Terrans I play meet.
Koget held it off but he also surrounded and trapped my first 2 goons with scvs when I tried to get by and preemptively had 6 scvs at his natural when I went for his tanks (1 of the 2 died, one survived on 17hp when I attacked). I explain that with Koget being way better at micro than me rather than something inherent to the build.
Build doesn’t work on Koget but I’d expect it could reliably get results on 2100s and lower. I spent a few hours searching for Terrans to try it on on ladder but I kept running into Protoss l, Zerg, and proxy BBS.
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On May 09 2020 07:12 KwarK wrote:
Build doesn’t work on Koget but I’d expect it could reliably get results on 2100s and lower. Oh please, someone needs to try this on Artosis 
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Leave it to KwarK to come up with a 2020 non-Longitude 10/15 haha.
In all seriousness, I think it would be great if you put together a rep pack. All games in which you attempt it, wins and losses, and then consider the winrate therein vs. your overall PvT winrate. I think that might silence the haters.
Does this strat seem like it has upwards mobility? Probably not. But shit, if it wins at 2100, it's good enough for 99% of the population.
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I mean if Bonyth played that would obviously be a different story, but he can also make 1 zealot and kill me so w/e I guess lol.
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United States43588 Posts
On May 10 2020 11:28 Jealous wrote:
Leave it to KwarK to come up with a 2020 non-Longitude 10/15 haha.
In all seriousness, I think it would be great if you put together a rep pack. All games in which you attempt it, wins and losses, and then consider the winrate therein vs. your overall PvT winrate. I think that might silence the haters.
Does this strat seem like it has upwards mobility? Probably not. But shit, if it wins at 2100, it's good enough for 99% of the population.
Starting this project.
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I'm interested in the results, post them when you have them please. In the meanwhile gonna see if this works in C rank lol.
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Interesting but I feel like that bunker rush response to the fast nex only happens half the time at best. Do you just lose to the vulture/drop response too or does that have some play with good building placement?
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what if terran puts the siege tank on higher ground and drills scv? I feel like even with 6 goon it would be hard to kill terran.
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United States43588 Posts
On May 29 2020 22:29 Anc13nt wrote:
what if terran puts the siege tank on higher ground and drills scv? I feel like even with 6 goon it would be hard to kill terran.
Then you lose. A perfect Terran read and response on a ramp map does well against this.
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United States43588 Posts
On May 29 2020 21:30 Chameleon wrote:
Interesting but I feel like that bunker rush response to the fast nex only happens half the time at best. Do you just lose to the vulture/drop response too or does that have some play with good building placement?
I’ve stopped using it on 4 player maps and built in a “I went 12 nex” in chat timing at 2:20 now to up the bunker rush frequency. It does decently vs 1 base because 2 nexus low saturation is still an okay income, how it does vs drop would depend entirely on the players.
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On May 29 2020 23:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2020 21:30 Chameleon wrote:
Interesting but I feel like that bunker rush response to the fast nex only happens half the time at best. Do you just lose to the vulture/drop response too or does that have some play with good building placement?
I’ve stopped using it on 4 player maps and built in a “I went 12 nex” in chat timing at 2:20 now to up the bunker rush frequency. It does decently vs 1 base because 2 nexus low saturation is still an okay income, how it does vs drop would depend entirely on the players.
LOL
Use all tools available to you in order to secure victory, makes sense.
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On May 08 2020 17:53 kogeT wrote:
I played vs Kwark yesterday. The timing is in fact really fast but as long as you have any idea what you are doing there is no issue defending it.
Someone show him this build. Maybe he will make it mainstream and Terrans will stop bunker rushing. ^^
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You can stack attack on ladder any time, as it turns out it makes 12 nex nearly invincible.
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EPT
