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Hey guys, I wasn't exactly sure about the tags in the title, please bear with me if they're wrong.
I was looking through some of the Brood War protoss strategy articles on liquipedia, and there seem to be a few inconsistencies (assuming I didn't misunderstand it), so maybe the authors or any good players could clear them up for me:
1) In the Protoss vs Zerg guide part about one base tech with a SG followup, 3 Hatch Hydra and 2 Hatch Muta are listed as counterstrategies. I assume 2 Hatch Muta is there because if playing Sair/DT on one base you can't really afford more than a single Corsair, so a quick Mutalisk rush will overwhelm you due to the lack of an early Forge as well, but I'm not quite sure why 3 Hatch Hydra counters this build? Maybe I looked at the timings wrongly, but they usually hit around a minute later than you would with your first 2 DTs, and in their respective strategy article (liquipedia.net) the build is said to "only" counter Fast Expand builds. Any insight on that?
2) In the one base section of Sair/DT it is said that if the Zerg plays passively, a "small attack with Zealots and the Dark Templar can be attempted". Are there any particular benchmarks for this? Because I doubt the initial 2 Zealots, 1 Corsair and 1-2 DTs can do much harm to a turtling Zerg, so you'd at least want more units, if not also Leg Speed and/or +1 Ground weapons, no?
3) The build order of that same strategy article lists the opening sequence as Zealot - Core - Pylon - Zealot. Is that correct or a mistake? Any other Zealot/Core/Zealot opener (against P or T respectively) lists the Pylon before the Cybernetics Core, as you would have a quite substantial downtime in production if you went for the Core first.
4) The 2 Gate DT articles against Protoss and Terran respectively both list the same opener, but the Terran one has a Probe cut after putting down the Templar Archives, while the Protoss one doesn't. Is the reasoning for this that to transition you want to get a Nexus asap vs Terran, while you want to have the Forge + Natural Pylon + potentially 1-2 Cannons before expanding?
Already thanks a lot in advance to anybody able to help me out 
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Let me try to answer some of your questions:
1) The 1 gate, tech opening in PvZ isn't really viable nowadays, cause zergs are mostly massing hidras early on and know how to defend vs such thing. However, the strategy is one my favorites and I do it from time to time but you need a lot of practice to perfect the timings and the hundreds of variations that can happen.
2) If you are able to pick a few drones, kill several hydras and pressure the zerg it won't directly win you the game but will make the zerg use his larvas to make army, instead of developing economy. Therefore it works well. Also if you keep the hydra number small you won't be so endangered.
3) This I'd say is dependant on what is going on and what you see when scouting. In general you need to keep yourself alive while you build a corsair and tech to DT. Then you can go out freely and do stuff. If you have your stargate 15 seconds faster you are in better spot than if you have a probe more.
4) This particular strat was good 10 years ago. It's still good but not ideal. Nowadays in pvp you want to start building your nexus at the very same moment when your first DTs are going out (or about this time).
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I don't ever one base against zerg unless it's vs random
for question three it should be pylon - gate - cyber - zealot - cut one probe - pylon - resume probes - that's the standard in pvp at least. And you're right that if you want two zealots it's pylon - gate- zealot - pylon - core - zealot. That's all I can speak to on the questions.
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Thanks for the replies already guys!
On May 04 2020 22:16 BlueStar wrote:
1) The 1 gate, tech opening in PvZ isn't really viable nowadays, cause zergs are mostly massing hidras early on and know how to defend vs such thing. However, the strategy is one my favorites and I do it from time to time but you need a lot of practice to perfect the timings and the hundreds of variations that can happen.
ah that's a shame, I liked the idea of sacrificing the eco boost to tech faster and have the sair + dt combination hit much earlier than with the bisu build.
On May 04 2020 22:16 BlueStar wrote:4) This particular strat was good 10 years ago. It's still good but not ideal. Nowadays in pvp you want to start building your nexus at the very same moment when your first DTs are going out (or about this time).
so does this mean you're just gambling about the opponent not being able to hide a DT tech? Because without the Forge, I don't see you ever getting your Natural up if it was a DT mirror, no?
On May 04 2020 22:22 MuNi wrote:
for question three it should be pylon - gate - cyber - zealot - cut one probe - pylon - resume probes - that's the standard in pvp at least. And you're right that if you want two zealots it's pylon - gate- zealot - pylon - core - zealot. That's all I can speak to on the questions.
that was my impression as well, which is why I was a little confused about the strategy article listing the core before the Pylon :/
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alright guys, more questions, but mostly about the same builds/general strategies 
As a transition out of DT openers in both PvP and PvT (regardless of the exact build), it's always mentioned that 2 base Arbiter play (in PvT) and "Storm tech with HTs and Observers" would be a logic followup for those openers. While that does make sense to me, I'm a bit lost about the exact "priorities" after the opener.
For example in PvP, after the DT opener, and once I get my Nat + Cannons up, should I go straight into researching Storm and training High Templar? Or do I need to make sure I get a decently sized standing army of Goons first? And what about the Range upgrade, should I start that before going into HT tech or just whenever I have the ressources for it? Same with Observer tech, where does their priority stand compared to Goons/Goon Range and HTs/Storm respectively? (Assuming it's not a DT mirror ofc)
Similar question for PvT. Do I rush to Arbiter tech after getting my Nat + 2nd Gas down, or is it more important to have Goon Range and a 2-3 Gate Goon production going first and just adding the SG and Arbiter Tribunal whenever I have the money for it in between?
Also, I'm not sure if I'm being mislead by the name of "2 base Arbiter". Does this just refer to the fact that you're GETTING Arbiters off of 2 bases (instead of, in a more normal gameflow, later when you're already at 3-4 bases)? Or does it actually mean you STAY on 2 bases and prepare for a big 2 base All-In with Arbiters via Recall or a counterattack after holding a Terran timing with Stasis?
Once again, thanks a lot in advance for the help!
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For PvT if you go any kind of DT tech your main weakness will be against vultures and mines. Thus, after you do any type of DT tech you need to get observers straight away and have a good wall at your natural as well as goon range. You should tech to arbiter after you have range and obs. Add your Stargate on 2 gates and then add three more gateways for a total of 5 gates. If you try to take a third and tech to arbiters off of two gates a good Terran will scan your gates, see your greed, and crush you. So you need to have the 5 gateways. Even if you scout Terran making a third cc you still need the gates.
As far as stasis or recall first that's a personal preference. If you scout a 5 fact or something I personally would rather have stasis for the defense.
In PVP you need to get storm straight away.
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On May 15 2020 01:26 MuNi wrote:
For PvT if you go any kind of DT tech your main weakness will be against vultures and mines. Thus, after you do any type of DT tech you need to get observers straight away and have a good wall at your natural as well as goon range. You should tech to arbiter after you have range and obs. Add your Stargate on 2 gates and then add three more gateways for a total of 5 gates. If you try to take a third and tech to arbiters off of two gates a good Terran will scan your gates, see your greed, and crush you. So you need to have the 5 gateways. Even if you scout Terran making a third cc you still need the gates.
As far as stasis or recall first that's a personal preference. If you scout a 5 fact or something I personally would rather have stasis for the defense.
In PVP you need to get storm straight away.
Thanks once again for your quick reply man, really appreciate it! I knew about the 2 base speedvulture issue, but how come that in the 2 Base Arbiter strategy article it is mentioned that
There are many variations of the build; it is a common follow-up to Dark Templar play with late or no Observers but it can also[...] ?
Is that just an outdated description then?
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There are very many variations of two base arb play.
you can take your natural Nexus after three goons and then drop a citadel and robotics at the same time and go for a two-base DT drop into two base arbiter.
Or you can get a 23 Nexus like stork and get observers first then go into two base arbiter before taking a third.
Or you can pretty much open anyway you like and transition into arbiter although most people don't go two base arbiter off of reaver.
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fair enough, I was just confused by the description saying it's a common followup to " DTs with late or no Observers", while your post made it sound like Observers should always be the highest priority after the DT harass
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Yeah not getting observers would be very silly in my opinion. A good Terran will destroy you with vults.
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On May 14 2020 21:20 kenspecklegrouse wrote:alright guys, more questions, but mostly about the same builds/general strategies As a transition out of DT openers in both PvP and PvT (regardless of the exact build), it's always mentioned that 2 base Arbiter play (in PvT) and "Storm tech with HTs and Observers" would be a logic followup for those openers. While that does make sense to me, I'm a bit lost about the exact "priorities" after the opener.
It is tricky to answer both questions, as both depend on how the opener went.
Basically, in both scenarios you tech to very strong units and have not many other units to back them up. Hence, "after" the opening (first DT is out) you have to judge how strongly you commit to the attack. A rule of thumb suggests that throwing all units onto the opponent only works if you are capable of killing him. If you don't hurt his economy badly enough, you will most likely die in either way as you overcommitted. It's, in relative terms, comparable to a screwed up 5-Pool; relatively speaking, as your opponents has more easy ways to throw away his lead.
Assuming it is a somewhat tied situation, you will be able to control the exit of the opponent's base for a few minutes, while you still have no real army to defend the first counter attack. Therefore it is pivotal to get even in terms of economy and be safe while you're doing it. In PvP you expand behind cannons, in PvT it's "safe enough" to expand behind a few pylons and a few dragoons. I guess you already understood that part.
In PvP, it doesn't matter what your opponent does - he usually will have goons and obs, with those he will siege down your expansion. Therefore storms are pivotal, because you can delay the siege long enough to get even in army strength, before he can break through. It should be noted that a cannon in the main base does not hurt, as a DT drop is an insanely strong counter to your build. You should always be aware this option could be used against you.
In PvT it's probably more complex, as Terran does not need a "high tech" unit to defend against DTs in theory. Turrets and Scans do not cost much, also mines will be a constant threat. This, again in theory, allows Terran to directly attack you. In this case you really need to know what you have to expect.
If it's a timing, obs early on might be a good idea, as you will need them to have a fighting chance to match Terran's stable economy and use earlier Arbiters mainly to drain com-sat energy and delay his push.
If it's a total attack, DTs and speed Zealots might be a good tool to blow up a rolling attack via mine dragging. In this scenario Terran will have a lot of units early on - meanwhile getting the entire tech tree yourself will mean you will have fewer units. Either delay arbiters or obs there, you should choose one option and then use this option's full power.
I'm not sure how easy it is to judge the situation at hand. Good signs are how Terran is using his vultures. The more he tries to harass without letting them die in the process, the more likely it is he will launch the attack early on. To be more clear, if they're mainly used to scout, you should get ready. Then again, a good Terran will always use them that way. The only difference is, for a timed attack hurting your eco makes vulture sacrifices more acceptable.
Then there's a third scenario, Terran raising a third expansion, while being safe behind only a few mines. Few Terrans ever did that, I'm not sure why. It's probably one of the best answers to a DT opener that did little to no damage vs. a FE build by Terran. There's not a Protoss can do to punish Terran, without being in danger to throw away all his army and thus being defeated. In this scenario, obs could be skipped as the first attack will take long. Getting 2-3 arbiters with stasis and recall are a good idea to re-gain some passive way to control the map and threaten counters.
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On May 15 2020 04:46 kenspecklegrouse wrote:
fair enough, I was just confused by the description saying it's a common followup to " DTs with late or no Observers", while your post made it sound like Observers should always be the highest priority after the DT harass
A lot of things written in liquipedia is written by not experts to put it kindly. That phrase in particular is not an outdated description, it was never a thing. Looking at the example vods, Jangbi has an observer already moving out of base at 6:43 whilst the 2nd VoD has the protoss queuing an observer at 8:28. In any case despite what is written, arbiters cannot make up for a lack of observers. No observers is no way to play a standard PvT.
Edit: Looking at the history of page, the original strategy description went from observers being a part of the build to "late or no observers". Very odd indeed.
Edit2: Actually I am not sure why the first VoD is there at all. I don't think jangbi did the build...
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On May 15 2020 14:26 GeckoXp wrote:
In PvT it's probably more complex, as Terran does not need a "high tech" unit to defend against DTs in theory. Turrets and Scans do not cost much, also mines will be a constant threat. This, again in theory, allows Terran to directly attack you. In this case you really need to know what you have to expect.
If it's a timing, obs early on might be a good idea, as you will need them to have a fighting chance to match Terran's stable economy and use earlier Arbiters mainly to drain com-sat energy and delay his push.
If it's a total attack, DTs and speed Zealots might be a good tool to blow up a rolling attack via mine dragging. In this scenario Terran will have a lot of units early on - meanwhile getting the entire tech tree yourself will mean you will have fewer units. Either delay arbiters or obs there, you should choose one option and then use this option's full power.
I'm not sure how easy it is to judge the situation at hand. Good signs are how Terran is using his vultures. The more he tries to harass without letting them die in the process, the more likely it is he will launch the attack early on. To be more clear, if they're mainly used to scout, you should get ready. Then again, a good Terran will always use them that way. The only difference is, for a timed attack hurting your eco makes vulture sacrifices more acceptable.
Then there's a third scenario, Terran raising a third expansion, while being safe behind only a few mines. Few Terrans ever did that, I'm not sure why. It's probably one of the best answers to a DT opener that did little to no damage vs. a FE build by Terran. There's not a Protoss can do to punish Terran, without being in danger to throw away all his army and thus being defeated. In this scenario, obs could be skipped as the first attack will take long. Getting 2-3 arbiters with stasis and recall are a good idea to re-gain some passive way to control the map and threaten counters.
Thanks a ton man, getting it explained like this actually helps A LOT!
So to memorize it for me: Skipping Observers is not a "feature" of the 2 base Arbiter build like I assumed, but it should instead be a conscious decision depending on the gamestate and whether or not I think I will be immediately threatened by mine harass or not.
If he plays aggressively:
Option A: Delay the Arbiters and go for a more "standard" PvT approach of regaining map control by clearing mines with ranged Goons and Observers.
Option B: Delay the Observers and use DTs and/or cloaked Speedlots to drag mines into his push.
If he plays passively:
Delay Observers to pose a threat to his new expansions with Arbiters.
Simplified of course, but is that the correct way of thinking?
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On May 15 2020 22:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
A lot of things written in liquipedia is written by not experts to put it kindly. That phrase in particular is not an outdated description, it was never a thing. Looking at the example vods, Jangbi has an observer already moving out of base at 6:43 whilst the 2nd VoD has the protoss queuing an observer at 8:28. In any case despite what is written, arbiters cannot make up for a lack of observers. No observers is no way to play a standard PvT.
Edit: Looking at the history of page, the original strategy description went from observers being a part of the build to "late or no observers". Very odd indeed.
Edit2: Actually I am not sure why the first VoD is there at all. I don't think jangbi did the build...
That's actually interesting, now I feel like an idiot for not checking the page history myself before asking, sorry :/
About the VoDs, most 2 Base Arbiter ones I found were either off of a robotics-based opener anyway, or off of a dt DROP that already had a shorter tech path to Observers, but I thought it might be a different story for non-drop-dt-openers like DT expo etc., should've probably clarified that. My bad again
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On May 15 2020 22:43 kenspecklegrouse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2020 14:26 GeckoXp wrote:
In PvT it's probably more complex, as Terran does not need a "high tech" unit to defend against DTs in theory. Turrets and Scans do not cost much, also mines will be a constant threat. This, again in theory, allows Terran to directly attack you. In this case you really need to know what you have to expect.
If it's a timing, obs early on might be a good idea, as you will need them to have a fighting chance to match Terran's stable economy and use earlier Arbiters mainly to drain com-sat energy and delay his push.
If it's a total attack, DTs and speed Zealots might be a good tool to blow up a rolling attack via mine dragging. In this scenario Terran will have a lot of units early on - meanwhile getting the entire tech tree yourself will mean you will have fewer units. Either delay arbiters or obs there, you should choose one option and then use this option's full power.
I'm not sure how easy it is to judge the situation at hand. Good signs are how Terran is using his vultures. The more he tries to harass without letting them die in the process, the more likely it is he will launch the attack early on. To be more clear, if they're mainly used to scout, you should get ready. Then again, a good Terran will always use them that way. The only difference is, for a timed attack hurting your eco makes vulture sacrifices more acceptable.
Then there's a third scenario, Terran raising a third expansion, while being safe behind only a few mines. Few Terrans ever did that, I'm not sure why. It's probably one of the best answers to a DT opener that did little to no damage vs. a FE build by Terran. There's not a Protoss can do to punish Terran, without being in danger to throw away all his army and thus being defeated. In this scenario, obs could be skipped as the first attack will take long. Getting 2-3 arbiters with stasis and recall are a good idea to re-gain some passive way to control the map and threaten counters. Thanks a ton man, getting it explained like this actually helps A LOT! So to memorize it for me: Skipping Observers is not a "feature" of the 2 base Arbiter build like I assumed, but it should instead be a conscious decision depending on the gamestate and whether or not I think I will be immediately threatened by mine harass or not. If he plays aggressively: Option A: Delay the Arbiters and go for a more "standard" PvT approach of regaining map control by clearing mines with ranged Goons and Observers. Option B: Delay the Observers and use DTs and/or cloaked Speedlots to drag mines into his push. If he plays passively: Delay Observers to pose a threat to his new expansions with Arbiters. Simplified of course, but is that the correct way of thinking?
More or less, yes. When I expanded the page, I guess I added the "no Observers" with that kind of context in mind. The "No Observer" part should be rephrased to delayed obs in comparison towards a more macro oriented or timed attack play. It is a trade off between several things: how fast do you want your arbiters (e.g. to drain comsat energy), how much energy and what kind of spell does an arbiter need (stasis vs. recall) or if you need obs before. The strategy is gas intense, as you also need to research the dragoon range upgrade.
There's also a historic aspect to all of this, as 2 Base Arbiter variations are linked to builds like the Stove and were sometimes used with no obs at all, in order to try to "recall rush" - speaking of games long before 2010. For reasons, I tried to work on the actual thought behind the "build" instead of adding this kind of trivia to it.
Trying to put this all in words is hard, things might slip and might be wrong in a concrete game (also, there's always a chance some typos copying from an early draft). Builds are very abstract. I once tried to write an article about how builds are to be read by an less experienced player, you might check that for future questions: https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/450579-other-basics
On May 15 2020 22:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
A lot of things written in liquipedia is written by not experts to put it kindly.
I'm also annoyed by comments stressing out how editors are possibly low skill level players, when every page was checked by either Bakuryu, Cryoc, DraW, Largo or whoever else of the A-ranked player base was around. Next time you feel the urge to throw that into a room, maybe just hop on Liquipedia and correct/rephrase what you feel is off. Liquipedia is just as good as its community.
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On May 15 2020 23:08 GeckoXp wrote:More or less, yes. When I expanded the page, I guess I added the "no Observers" with that kind of context in mind. The "No Observer" part should be rephrased to delayed obs in comparison towards a more macro oriented or timed attack play. It is a trade off between several things: how fast do you want your arbiters (e.g. to drain comsat energy), how much energy and what kind of spell does an arbiter need (stasis vs. recall) or if you need obs before. The strategy is gas intense, as you also need to research the dragoon range upgrade. There's also a historic aspect to all of this, as 2 Base Arbiter variations are linked to builds like the Stove and were sometimes used with no obs at all, in order to try to "recall rush" - speaking of games long before 2010. For reasons, I tried to work on the actual thought behind the "build" instead of adding this kind of trivia to it. Trying to put this all in words is hard, things might slip and might be wrong in a concrete game (also, there's always a chance some typos copying from an early draft). Builds are very abstract. I once tried to write an article about how builds are to be read by an less experienced player, you might check that for future questions: https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/450579-other-basics
Yeah that makes sense. I didn't wanna come off as critizising you btw, sorry if I made that impression (honestly didn't even know you were the author of that page lol). I'm just trying to get a full grasp of everything, so I end up theorycrafting about it all and a ton of small questions pop up :D
"Recall Rush" is actually a good point though. That'show I originally understood the title of "2 Base Arbiter" in the first place. I thought the idea behind it all was: Open with DTs, harass his economy, force him to stay in his base while rushing up to Arbiter tech and draining his Comsat energy, so you can recall in his base and leave him with no mobile detection for the ~1,5 cloaked control groups you just teleported in his base. Judging from your comment though, this is a separate build that is mostly used as a followup to The Stove?
And thanks for the link, I'll check it out in a minute!
Edit: Talking about The Stove - isn't the idea of harassing with a Scout counterproductive to a Recall Rush though, as it will most likely trigger Turrets at the spot your Arbiter wants to fly in later?
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On May 15 2020 23:08 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2020 22:43 kenspecklegrouse wrote:On May 15 2020 14:26 GeckoXp wrote:
In PvT it's probably more complex, as Terran does not need a "high tech" unit to defend against DTs in theory. Turrets and Scans do not cost much, also mines will be a constant threat. This, again in theory, allows Terran to directly attack you. In this case you really need to know what you have to expect.
If it's a timing, obs early on might be a good idea, as you will need them to have a fighting chance to match Terran's stable economy and use earlier Arbiters mainly to drain com-sat energy and delay his push.
If it's a total attack, DTs and speed Zealots might be a good tool to blow up a rolling attack via mine dragging. In this scenario Terran will have a lot of units early on - meanwhile getting the entire tech tree yourself will mean you will have fewer units. Either delay arbiters or obs there, you should choose one option and then use this option's full power.
I'm not sure how easy it is to judge the situation at hand. Good signs are how Terran is using his vultures. The more he tries to harass without letting them die in the process, the more likely it is he will launch the attack early on. To be more clear, if they're mainly used to scout, you should get ready. Then again, a good Terran will always use them that way. The only difference is, for a timed attack hurting your eco makes vulture sacrifices more acceptable.
Then there's a third scenario, Terran raising a third expansion, while being safe behind only a few mines. Few Terrans ever did that, I'm not sure why. It's probably one of the best answers to a DT opener that did little to no damage vs. a FE build by Terran. There's not a Protoss can do to punish Terran, without being in danger to throw away all his army and thus being defeated. In this scenario, obs could be skipped as the first attack will take long. Getting 2-3 arbiters with stasis and recall are a good idea to re-gain some passive way to control the map and threaten counters. Thanks a ton man, getting it explained like this actually helps A LOT! So to memorize it for me: Skipping Observers is not a "feature" of the 2 base Arbiter build like I assumed, but it should instead be a conscious decision depending on the gamestate and whether or not I think I will be immediately threatened by mine harass or not. If he plays aggressively: Option A: Delay the Arbiters and go for a more "standard" PvT approach of regaining map control by clearing mines with ranged Goons and Observers. Option B: Delay the Observers and use DTs and/or cloaked Speedlots to drag mines into his push. If he plays passively: Delay Observers to pose a threat to his new expansions with Arbiters. Simplified of course, but is that the correct way of thinking? More or less, yes. When I expanded the page, I guess I added the "no Observers" with that kind of context in mind. The "No Observer" part should be rephrased to delayed obs in comparison towards a more macro oriented or timed attack play. It is a trade off between several things: how fast do you want your arbiters (e.g. to drain comsat energy), how much energy and what kind of spell does an arbiter need (stasis vs. recall) or if you need obs before. The strategy is gas intense, as you also need to research the dragoon range upgrade. There's also a historic aspect to all of this, as 2 Base Arbiter variations are linked to builds like the Stove and were sometimes used with no obs at all, in order to try to "recall rush" - speaking of games long before 2010. For reasons, I tried to work on the actual thought behind the "build" instead of adding this kind of trivia to it. Trying to put this all in words is hard, things might slip and might be wrong in a concrete game (also, there's always a chance some typos copying from an early draft). Builds are very abstract. I once tried to write an article about how builds are to be read by an less experienced player, you might check that for future questions: https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/450579-other-basicsShow nested quote +On May 15 2020 22:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
A lot of things written in liquipedia is written by not experts to put it kindly. I'm also annoyed by comments stressing out how editors are possibly low skill level players, when every page was checked by either Bakuryu, Cryoc, DraW, Largo or whoever else of the A-ranked player base was around. Next time you feel the urge to throw that into a room, maybe just hop on Liquipedia and correct/rephrase what you feel is off. Liquipedia is just as good as its community.
Oh, so it was you. I didn't even look at names or when it changed. Obviously whatever the process is to check edits, it has failed in your case if no observers can be suggested as part of standard PvT. Your hostile attitude of being there first therefore it must be more correct is everything wrong with most wiki sites. But since you invited me, I'll just go right ahead...
Edit: Actually let me just delete the phrase as that isn't really true that it is a common follow up to DT play (what build even is is that? Where is that?) either, so you don't confuse people trying to learn builds years later.
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On May 15 2020 23:35 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2020 23:08 GeckoXp wrote:On May 15 2020 22:43 kenspecklegrouse wrote:On May 15 2020 14:26 GeckoXp wrote:
In PvT it's probably more complex, as Terran does not need a "high tech" unit to defend against DTs in theory. Turrets and Scans do not cost much, also mines will be a constant threat. This, again in theory, allows Terran to directly attack you. In this case you really need to know what you have to expect.
If it's a timing, obs early on might be a good idea, as you will need them to have a fighting chance to match Terran's stable economy and use earlier Arbiters mainly to drain com-sat energy and delay his push.
If it's a total attack, DTs and speed Zealots might be a good tool to blow up a rolling attack via mine dragging. In this scenario Terran will have a lot of units early on - meanwhile getting the entire tech tree yourself will mean you will have fewer units. Either delay arbiters or obs there, you should choose one option and then use this option's full power.
I'm not sure how easy it is to judge the situation at hand. Good signs are how Terran is using his vultures. The more he tries to harass without letting them die in the process, the more likely it is he will launch the attack early on. To be more clear, if they're mainly used to scout, you should get ready. Then again, a good Terran will always use them that way. The only difference is, for a timed attack hurting your eco makes vulture sacrifices more acceptable.
Then there's a third scenario, Terran raising a third expansion, while being safe behind only a few mines. Few Terrans ever did that, I'm not sure why. It's probably one of the best answers to a DT opener that did little to no damage vs. a FE build by Terran. There's not a Protoss can do to punish Terran, without being in danger to throw away all his army and thus being defeated. In this scenario, obs could be skipped as the first attack will take long. Getting 2-3 arbiters with stasis and recall are a good idea to re-gain some passive way to control the map and threaten counters. Thanks a ton man, getting it explained like this actually helps A LOT! So to memorize it for me: Skipping Observers is not a "feature" of the 2 base Arbiter build like I assumed, but it should instead be a conscious decision depending on the gamestate and whether or not I think I will be immediately threatened by mine harass or not. If he plays aggressively: Option A: Delay the Arbiters and go for a more "standard" PvT approach of regaining map control by clearing mines with ranged Goons and Observers. Option B: Delay the Observers and use DTs and/or cloaked Speedlots to drag mines into his push. If he plays passively: Delay Observers to pose a threat to his new expansions with Arbiters. Simplified of course, but is that the correct way of thinking? More or less, yes. When I expanded the page, I guess I added the "no Observers" with that kind of context in mind. The "No Observer" part should be rephrased to delayed obs in comparison towards a more macro oriented or timed attack play. It is a trade off between several things: how fast do you want your arbiters (e.g. to drain comsat energy), how much energy and what kind of spell does an arbiter need (stasis vs. recall) or if you need obs before. The strategy is gas intense, as you also need to research the dragoon range upgrade. There's also a historic aspect to all of this, as 2 Base Arbiter variations are linked to builds like the Stove and were sometimes used with no obs at all, in order to try to "recall rush" - speaking of games long before 2010. For reasons, I tried to work on the actual thought behind the "build" instead of adding this kind of trivia to it. Trying to put this all in words is hard, things might slip and might be wrong in a concrete game (also, there's always a chance some typos copying from an early draft). Builds are very abstract. I once tried to write an article about how builds are to be read by an less experienced player, you might check that for future questions: https://tl.net/forum/bw-strategy/450579-other-basicsOn May 15 2020 22:03 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
A lot of things written in liquipedia is written by not experts to put it kindly. I'm also annoyed by comments stressing out how editors are possibly low skill level players, when every page was checked by either Bakuryu, Cryoc, DraW, Largo or whoever else of the A-ranked player base was around. Next time you feel the urge to throw that into a room, maybe just hop on Liquipedia and correct/rephrase what you feel is off. Liquipedia is just as good as its community. Oh, so it was you. I didn't even look at names or when it changed. Obviously whatever the process is to check edits, it has failed in your case if no observers can be suggested as part of standard PvT. Your hostile attitude of being there first therefore it must be more correct is everything wrong with most wiki sites. But since you invited me, I'll just go right ahead...
I just stated that it is an error and misleadingly phrased. Liquipedia is welcoming editors and I'm personally happy if someone takes over and increases the value. I rather return the favour: it's your attitude of complaining instead of doing that doesn't improve most wikis.
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