EPTHydralisks in ZvZ - Page 2
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19230 Posts
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
I can demonstrate with games, hard to fully explain just with theory. I'm open to challenges! I am not narrowly talking about a specific hydra opening btw, but about the option of transition to hydra at any time, even with a muta start. The basic strategic element is abusing hydras low gas cost, making it possible to combat enemy's air through superior crystal harvesting. Nostalgia is a nice "old" map, without gas at nat, naturally favoring hydra. "old" because to me anything after lost temple, dire straits and ashrigo still feels new, lol | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
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JakePlissken
55 Posts
On April 24 2020 00:11 Rainalcar wrote: As far as I see it, not having gas at the natural could disrupt the general balance a lot. So, ideally, we need a map where mutas are less attractive, but where the other matchups are not disturbed. I don't think that map shape could help with this a lot, so maybe some kind of worker protection or resource tweak? There will never be a map similar to Nostalgia again because it basically confines Protoss to one base. Terrans can stay on one gas for a while and be fine with Vultures and mines, which Protoss needs gas-intensive tech units to counter. Zerg can take three bases early versus protoss, pretty much anywhere they want. A mineral base only helps Protoss make Zealots which are hard countered by Hydras, Lings, Vultures, mines, all of which can be massed on one base for free control of the map. 1 base Protoss falls behind rapidly to 2 base Zerg or 1 base Terran, so a map where your only viable expansion is a mineral only base you don't want is too crippling to be considered for serious play. | ||
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g0rynich
Russian Federation139 Posts
On April 23 2020 02:34 Rainalcar wrote: I've read your guides, they were very interesting. But in essence, on pro level hydra is not viable. Maybe you have map specific suggestions? if you will try to find some jaedong's games zvz. You can suddenly find that he used hydra sometimes. As i can remember properly last game i saw was vs maybe MISO or Shine on a map Gold Rush. That was not pure Hydra vs Muta but Muta vs Muta into Muta vs Muta/Hydra. Actually hydras have very good DPS and almost allways win mutalisks builds vs same eco, 2 vs 2 bases, 3 vs 3 bases etc. The problem of hydras is that it is slow and vulnerable to diffrent attacks so hydra player should invest a lot of money into good defence and eco. While pure muta player could ez harass and play on low eco. Because of that hydra is unplayable on maps like nostalgia or blue storm or peaks of baekdu etc. Many thin passages make muta harass very successive. For a hydra style you need to play a wide open map with a good mineral/gas spore defence. Like tau cross, longinus, circuit breakers may be, etc. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
On April 24 2020 05:15 g0rynich wrote: if you will try to find some jaedong's games zvz. You can suddenly find that he used hydra sometimes. As i can remember properly last game i saw was vs maybe MISO or Shine on a map Gold Rush. That was not pure Hydra vs Muta but Muta vs Muta into Muta vs Muta/Hydra. Actually hydras have very good DPS and almost allways win mutalisks builds vs same eco, 2 vs 2 bases, 3 vs 3 bases etc. The problem of hydras is that it is slow and vulnerable to diffrent attacks so hydra player should invest a lot of money into good defence and eco. While pure muta player could ez harass and play on low eco. Because of that hydra is unplayable on maps like nostalgia or blue storm or peaks of baekdu etc. Many thin passages make muta harass very successive. For a hydra style you need to play a wide open map with a good mineral/gas spore defence. Like tau cross, longinus, circuit breakers may be, etc. Agreed. But it still doesn't apply to pro play, nobody ever opened hydra to my knowledge. I have however seen some switches to hydra, as you say. Is there a map-specific way to prevent at least some of the drones from muta harass, while preserving balance of other matchups? | ||
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sataNik[pG]
Greece722 Posts
So the general plan is: Larvae advantage --> eco advantage --> defend with spores+grade up +1 range -> mass The way you put it, I think no map exists which would favor a pure hydra opening with same economy & hatch count. Lings are much cheaper and can easily take care until mutas come. If the map is too narrow for lings, so it is for hydras. | ||
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g0rynich
Russian Federation139 Posts
On April 24 2020 20:15 Rainalcar wrote: Agreed. But it still doesn't apply to pro play, nobody ever opened hydra to my knowledge. I have however seen some switches to hydra, as you say. Is there a map-specific way to prevent at least some of the drones from muta harass, while preserving balance of other matchups? Generally if you want to open hydra the best way is to open a greedy build like 3x hatchery+speed lings and put your opponent under pressure with mass zergling - slowing his eco as much as possible while right after your push you still can ez drone up well. You defend with spores and now have 3 diffrent ways of play: timing push at 0/1 or 1/1 upgrades at tier1 with pure hydras, timing push with hydra/lurker or hydra/scourge, timing push with hydra/lurker/defiler or hydra/devourers. It is very dependable of the map and of your scouting, because muta zerg can do many diffrent things to answer your eco defence. He almost always prevents your early scoting, so he can counter hydras with a number of ways: 1) if your nat has a cliff he can just make guardians and defend himself with a ton of sunkens, he can just take 4 gases and make mass muta, he can make muta from 2/3 gases and make 1/1 mass lings from 4/5 hatcheries, he can make 10 lurers and push your natural, he can runby your main or nat with muta/ling while you out and defend himself with sunkes, he can just take highground bases and defend them with lurers of a cliff and himself with sunken/lurker. Everything need a proper preparation from hydra. That is the main weakness of the build. High level muta zerg will prevent hydra zerg from scouting at all. In that case there is NO universal build so muta has favor. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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Rainalcar
Croatia360 Posts
True, Lings kill Hydras if they can use Swarm, but put one Lurker and Lings pop like popcorn. It may be due to rarity, but I consider ZvZ to be potentially by far the most interesting mirror in the game, except that late game is virtually unattainable. Opening hydras could offer a bigger chance to get there simply because lurkers allow fantastic turtling. | ||
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