Just got done playing my second game on ICCUP and came across the same strategy that I just couldn't figure out a way to beat from the past. I even scouted it before he even had one zealot. I just want to know what I'm supposed to do right away if I scout it.
Pretty much to sum this game up he did 2 gate zealot rush and made about 5~ zealots while i got my bunker up. He starts to attack my factory while killing the scv thats building it and its not like u can kill off the 3-4 zealots right away with the few marines u have. So when i finally complete the factory i immediately lift it so it don't die and immeidately repair it. At this point he has zealots and goons but still I build an ebay before CC becuz u never know that he could've gone dts so i was just trying to be safe.
So after pushing his zealot/goons out I expo and one thing I should've done was have better ebay/barrax placement. I should've built a bunker too but I knew I was behind anyway and thought to myself why waste 100 minerals when thats 100 more minerals I have to wait for another CC becuz I jsut had a feeling that he already had his mineral only expo as well.
At this point a reaver comes and after dealing with that game ends with mass zealot/goons at the front. One thing my friend advised me vs 2 gate is put 2 scvs on ramp and one marine behind it while getting siege mode and tanks with ebay but I don't know what to do if he sees this right away, stops zealot production and brings goons.
Anyways anyone who seriously knows what I did wrong or knows how to stop this or knows what they're talking about please help me in what to do vs this strategy. Thanx
defending against a proxy is really hard unless u find it soon enough. it seems that you were completely surprised by it so therefore u had no 'real' chance.
honestly if ur doing random pubbies and have no idea what his favorite build is play it safe and build rax right next to choke point. (if its a non ramp map; your screwd) then build 1 marine > scout > and if u find something, put 4 scvs to be safe on your ramp, float ur rax over ur scvs, and have ur marine visible shooting at zlots
its what i do. but usually people would try a normal 1gate core tech build, so u might want like 4-6 marines after that. hope this helped a little
Can't watch the rep atm but I saw some good toss vs nada and nada scouted proxy. He went 2 barracks and then a timing rush with SCVs (all of it I think). Remember to get the pylon if that proxy when you attack.
You didn't even make a barrack until after the refinery at umm 11 psi.. BAD IDEA.
Make your barrack at ummm 10 psi, and pump out a few rines to defend your self.. that would've held them bak until that vulture came out.... with excellent micro that is :D
On June 14 2007 15:59 Wala.Revolution wrote: Can't watch the rep atm but I saw some good toss vs nada and nada scouted proxy. He went 2 barracks and then a timing rush with SCVs (all of it I think). Remember to get the pylon if that proxy when you attack.
2 scvs+1 rine+ floating rax over scvs=gg proxy rush
I recently made a thread about this same thign excpet I am the gay toss player with 5 zealots being pissed that I have 5 zeals that are being pwned by 2 scvs and a rine or 2.
On June 14 2007 16:03 TofuCraft wrote: You didn't even make a barrack until after the refinery at umm 11 psi.. BAD IDEA.
Make your barrack at ummm 10 psi, and pump out a few rines to defend your self.. that would've held them bak until that vulture came out.... with excellent micro that is :D
Nada built the 2nd Barrack before he saw the proxy (?) , i think he would go 2 rax even if ra didn't proxy
On June 14 2007 15:13 imBLIND wrote: defending against a proxy is really hard unless u find it soon enough. it seems that you were completely surprised by it so therefore u had no 'real' chance.
honestly if ur doing random pubbies and have no idea what his favorite build is play it safe and build rax right next to choke point. (if its a non ramp map; your screwd) then build 1 marine > scout > and if u find something, put 4 scvs to be safe on your ramp, float ur rax over ur scvs, and have ur marine visible shooting at zlots
its what i do. but usually people would try a normal 1gate core tech build, so u might want like 4-6 marines after that. hope this helped a little
This is bad advice, sorry. You didn't even read his thread, because he said he noticed it early and your reply is "you didn't see it"
Do NOT build your barracks at your ramp on Luna. Always build it near your CC in such a way that if zealots were to attack you can make it difficult to get at you, your scvs can help block, etc. Pull 3 scvs, and block/attack the zealot as it comes at your marine. Those 3 scvs are already doing 3x the damage of your 1 marine.
If you are zealot rushed your only option is to simply try to finish the fac and micro your ass off with marines, there is no "easy" solution, although if you have time and don't have confidence in your micro/dont want to micro you can make a bunker (this wouldn't work if you built your rax at your ramp). If he is seriously zealot massing then make vultures from the facs immediately. It's important if possible to get an scv out and scout the proxy area/base to see what his tech is, because a common followup is DT but if you guess wrong it can really fuck you over if you have no tanks when the goons come.
Oh and general rule of thumb is 3 marines can take 1 zealot without needing any scv backup.
I remember watching a game of TheSTC[GnH] (or maybe it was Wingzero[GnH], I don't remember) on Luna that was an extremely good example of how to defend zealot rush on Luna. Try searching for TheSTC on replay sites, I'm sure you could find it quite easily since he doesn't have 500000 reps out like Nada or something.
I also don't think that 2 raxing as a rule of thumb against proxy gaters is a good idea, it's only going to work in certain situations and until you can defend against it normally I wouldn't do a build like that (you're not Nada...but then your opponent isn't Nal_Ra either).
if you scout it right away, put 3~ scvs onto your ramp and rally your marines behind them, then select the marines and scvs together and press hold position (this and constant marine production for a while should be able to stop it)
dont bother with all these scvs, what you want to do is run your marine around and dont bother attacking him, you can build a bunker if its a 2 gate proxy, get him to chase your marine and only fire at him if he negates your marine(s) and goes to your scv line, once you get a vulture you can back him off, you basically just waste time with your marines until your vulture comes up, and if you have a bunker + a vul with more building he cant do anything with his proxy zeals unless he cannons you.
On June 14 2007 16:03 TofuCraft wrote: You didn't even make a barrack until after the refinery at umm 11 psi.. BAD IDEA.
Make your barrack at ummm 10 psi, and pump out a few rines to defend your self.. that would've held them bak until that vulture came out.... with excellent micro that is :D
Nada built the 2nd Barrack before he saw the proxy (?) , i think he would go 2 rax even if ra didn't proxy
The Nada vs Boxer game was on Sin Pioneer Period so it's quite a different map than Luna, and yes he did go 2 rax before gas (he never even ended up getting gas I beleive) before even scouting the proxy.
-To running your rine around: This can work but if he 2 gate proxies he can have 5 zealots in your base aroudn the time your first vulture finishes so he can have 1 zealot chase vult while you micro to kill it, one chasing rine(s) and the other can be bashing your scv so this isn't a good option unless you have really good micro.
Also, someone said hold position 3 scvs on ramp and pump rines, this is probably the easiest defense you risk that he coudl break it by manually attacking the scvs though, so I still think the best option is to make a rine or 2 and float the barracks over the 2-3 scvs that you have in hold position with the rine(s) behind them.
On June 15 2007 04:32 Sadist wrote: dont bother with all these scvs, what you want to do is run your marine around and dont bother attacking him, you can build a bunker if its a 2 gate proxy, get him to chase your marine and only fire at him if he negates your marine(s) and goes to your scv line, once you get a vulture you can back him off, you basically just waste time with your marines until your vulture comes up, and if you have a bunker + a vul with more building he cant do anything with his proxy zeals unless he cannons you.
But Sadist I did do all that and I still lost. I just want someone good and knows what they're talking about to take a look at the replay. There has to be some big flaw in my play that I got beat so badly vs this strat two times ina row. He makes alot of zealots and just targets factory and scvs so i cant complete it and for me to lift the factory or repair it i must first FINISH it. You won't know what i'm talking about till u guys WATCH THE REPLAY FIRST which is why I opened this thread with "replay at bottom." You know what guys, just forget about countering 2 gate for now and please just watch the replay and tell me what i did wrong this game. thanx.
On June 14 2007 16:03 TofuCraft wrote: You didn't even make a barrack until after the refinery at umm 11 psi.. BAD IDEA.
Make your barrack at ummm 10 psi, and pump out a few rines to defend your self.. that would've held them bak until that vulture came out.... with excellent micro that is :D
Nada built the 2nd Barrack before he saw the proxy (?) , i think he would go 2 rax even if ra didn't proxy
The Nada vs Boxer game was on Sin Pioneer Period so it's quite a different map than Luna, and yes he did go 2 rax before gas (he never even ended up getting gas I beleive) before even scouting the proxy.
According to the commentators, NaDa saw the scouting Probe which came super super early which indicated that Kang Min was building proxy gateway(s). They were saying how the scouting became poison to Kang Min because it was too early. So NaDa definitely made an informed decision.
I'm not a great player so don't trust me 100%. But I'll try my best to give you sound advice.
It looks like you just panicked and so your play was really messed up. Your barracks was too late. Plus, you played too defensively. You have to trust your micro and attack with those Marines if the Zealots are targeting the factory. You had enough resources to build another Factory or Barracks but you let a good 800 minerals or so just sit there. You upgraded mines first but yet you built no Vultures the entire game. When you were defending against Reavers, you didn't use your SEVEN Marines which would have made defending against the Reaver drop easier for you. Also, your reaction time is kind of slow, so you lost some units because of it. Keep your eyes on the minimap as much as possible =)
Just don't panic and trust your micro to push those initial Zealots back. Once you secure your ramp, defending becomes much easier.
I watched your replay and there's a few things that you did wrong:
-You should've made your barracks a little bit earlier. When a p takes your gas it need not be a setback. His rush will be delayed and your barracks will be nice and quickly done. But even if you choose to get your gas early because you fear he takes yours, you still could've made it a bit earlier.
-Make your factory and barracks closer to CC. This way, the bunker will be closer to your factory, perhaps even covering part of it.
-There was one moment, or perhaps a few, when you should've charged him. At one time he had 3 somewhat damaged on your factory and you had 5 marines or so. Pick 4 scvs, put them up front and attack the zealots. This would've lead to your factory being finished earlier+not losing any more building scvs on them.
-You researched mines but didn't do anything with it.
-You handled the reaver drop very poorly, although to be fair, it was already over at that point.
Something that i've also seen working quite well is using your scout scv to make a sneaky factory in or near his main. "Proxy gate" is very susceptible to counters and 2 vults, even without speed in his main, may well win you the game, even when your own main is only protected by marines and a bunker. You were also late with your depot from 34 to 42. These are small things, but in games like these you cannot afford mistakes. Just give it a little practice and keeps these points in your head. Good luck.
I like doing dual proxy 9-gates in the middle of the map when i play pvt on Tau Cross. It's like a 90% win chance against equally skilled terrans for me.
The games i lose however, are games either games where my opponent stay alive, either with bunker or superior micro. As said your rax should be close to CC and your factory too. Place your bunker to cover as much as possible, keep 1-2 rines inside it and another rine to chase zealots. When they approach you, you move towards your bunker, and when the target scvs or buildings, you unload and attack them. By doing this effectively, you have a good chance of coming out on top of the situation.
What's more difficult, in my opinion, is how to match your rines+bunker to the ammount of zeals the protoss produce before he switch to goons. If you start a bunk before fac and then rines on top of that, you'll get an even bigger disadvantage against goons later on. Let's say you scout his 2 gates before his first zeal pops out and start a bunker before fac and making 4+ rines. What a smart protoss do against that is to take his gas and make a core instead and feast upon your late factory with - in this situation - really fast goons with range. Its a matter of balancing and matching his build in other words.
What's interesting is the game after you survived. If the protoss player makes alot of zeals before getting core and gas, the tables will turn and instead you will have an enormous advantage. Observers plus goons with range won't see the light for quite a long time and basically you can take your natural once you've chased the zeals away, with like 2 vultures + mines.
However it's a really good and powerful build for p on maps where terran cant block his choke, regardless of the skill-level of the players. The polish player Wiget, who where in POL-A maybe a couple of years ago, used the 2-gate in all pvt Luna games i ever saw with him. I also recall Yan doing it successfully against Strelok(?) in some league, along with PJ and Testie against top non-kor terrans. What I mean is that it's not some shitty build only sloppy terrans lose games to. And since it's used so often (and also not being much of an all-in build at all) I think it'd be worth discussing wether it should be called cheese or not.
EPT
