EPTZvT 3 Hatch Lurker 2018 by the book examples
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
QuadroX
386 Posts
| ||
|
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6595 Posts
| ||
|
Li_Xin
51 Posts
For example, some zergs want to take an earlier 3rd base, while others prioritize getting earlier hive tech, or faster lurkers. There's smaller things too, like getting doing 12hatch->13pool, instead of 12hatch->11pool, which I'm guessing would have an impact on how early they can afford their 3rd base. I always go 12hatch->11pool, so I'm not entirely sure. Not to mention, if the terran gets 2 barracks -> academy (instead of 1rax-> engineering bay) you will have to get 3 sunkens to defend the push which will probably delay the timing of your 3rd base. Even against the old-school 3tank->1vessel push, there's variations on how you can play against it. Generally, Zerg players prioritize hive timing above all else against that (aka, getting a fast queen's next). Against 5rax builds, there's even more variations of how you can play against it. Some zergs delay their lurker timing and build a bunch of muta/ling to defend terran aggression, some zergs rush lurkers as fast as they can once they've started to build their mutalisks to try and get 3 lurkers on a cliff to defend their 3rd base, and there's other styles too. tl/dr: There's no perfect & standard 3hatch mutalisk build. If you're a beginner, I would say once you started your 11 mutalisks against a terran going for a tank/vessel push, just: 1) Pump drones & take your 3rd base. He's not leaving his base any time soon. 2) Start queens nest. Need a fast hive against that push unless you're just going to build a ridiculous amount of lurkers. If he's going 5rax: 1) Get Hydra Den fast. Start Lurker Aspect and 3 Hydralisks, so you have time to walk them to your 3rd base and get them above a cliff/choke before Lurker Aspect finishes. 2) Get your 3rd base as fast you can (It will probably take a while to afford if he went 2rax->academy instead of 1rax->e-bay) 3) Hive when you can. Generally don't need Hive super fast against 5rax build. His tech will be delayed as well. But the thing about 5rax, there's a bunch of variations to playing against it. Like rather than getting lurkers asap to defend your 3rd, you could keep making mutalisks, and try to defend it with them instead.This is just how I play against it. If you're not a beginner then probably don't bother with my advice. As for what the liquipedia page says -- it's not really outdated. That part of 3hatch muta (the early build order), hasn't really changed at all. It's the part of the game that comes after the build order listed where the 'meta' changed and also where players have their own variants. The only part I didn't particularly agree with is it said to build '2 sunkens as needed' I would say you should get 3 sunkens, and you do this when the terran builds another barracks and an academy after taking their natural instead of going e-bay. Also it says to get an evolution chamber once you've started your Hydralisk den, and to get a fast +1 carapace.. I mean, you can do that if you want -- I prefer to get a queens nest at that time instead though, and then I can get a faster Hive, but again, there's no perfect way. You're going to have to make some sacrifices no matter what. EDIT: Lol, Just realized you wanted a 3hatch lurker build, not a 3hatch muta build.Whoops. I watched what eonzerg posted, thought he was just trolling... then I saw the title of the thread. =( | ||
|
iopq
United States930 Posts
Off by one or two supply does not a variation make. Certain maps just have different gas spawns and attack distances so you may need more defense to be safe when you can't figure out your opponent's build. You can do a paint by numbers build for 3 hatch lurker as well, it would only differ by a few supply if these builds were more popular. But they are gimmicky so people didn't hone them to perfection. Maybe going 3 hatch muta, but making hydras instead of mutas when spire finishes would be the "correct" build. Banking 9 larva would "give it away" but you're making lurkers anyway. | ||
|
QuadroX
386 Posts
| ||
|
iopq
United States930 Posts
| ||
|
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On November 19 2018 17:07 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mHgv0dr3-0 Wow Effort's control to kill Mong's first group of MnM is a thing of beauty | ||
|
Toss_Master
United States46 Posts
| ||
|
sM.Zik
Canada2548 Posts
Here's a vod from one of my game. | ||
|
hiro protagonist
1294 Posts
from there, he techs super fast to hive for defilers. One detail that he does that ive never seen anyone else do is that while morphing to hive he starts leap froging spore colony's. This keeps his his defilers safe while the vessel count is still low enough. ill see if i can find a vod for it. Edit: Here is an example with flash offracing vs larva: | ||
|
QuadroX
386 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1570 Posts
On November 19 2018 16:12 QuadroX wrote: Does anyone have VODs or replays of Koreans where you can learn the recent meta timings of that build? Like a perfect example of the build itself without too many adjustments for some early game aggression. Feels like liquipedia page is outdated. Thanks! Here is a bo that i like to do that is very safe copied on sAviOr hatch 12 pool11 hatch16 (sAviOr did 15 but me I prefer 16) gas 16 2 ling 1 sunk adjust to the context... In case terran is going for normal fe you can do the following take second gas as soon as you start lair (very important), no speed ling and no lings. make drone until 35, make sunken if needed (you will most likely do since u have no lings), drone until 35 + 3 over 11 muta den hydra speed ling upgrade lurker upgrade. adjust to the context... very defensive coze you can't put pressure on terran until you have muta but efficient because you have good eco having enough to put 4 sunken and have 900/900 when spire pops out. Or you can always try to go the classic lair + speed ling and muta, but nowadays terran have tons of ways to break your timing and therefore is (imo) much harder to execute | ||
|
QuadroX
386 Posts
I could not micro muta like a pro, though I enjoy this harassing process in the game. Sometimes I can pick off marines and workers. Also when my muta is alive I can take my third safely, there's higher chance that those 3 hydras make it to the ramp in time. Additionally compared to lurker build I can easily defend early tank vessel push off 1 base. Every early tank push with contain is much harder to defend with pure lurker ling. The downside #1 that if my muta dies (which often happens) then I could not take my third and the game is almost over from there. The downside #2 if terran goes for a mech build or 1-1-1 which is popular now I feel safer with lurker build since I have my den earlier and could make hydras in time to defend wraith harass/vulture drops. So I need to pick THE BUILD that's solid enough and aimed for a macro game. Eventually I can do small adjustments to account for different tech trees. I thought lurkers are the way to go but I'm having second thoughts, maybe I should practice plain 3 hatch muta until I get gud with muta micro and shit. I saw effort did his F-rank tutorials on Fish Server where he goes for muta build against T thinking it's better for new players, why didn't he opted for lurkers instead since mutas are micro heavy. Shit, this game is hard to figure out. :D | ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1570 Posts
On November 26 2018 18:31 QuadroX wrote: Ok there's still a controversy in my head. If you don't take a quick third hatch at another base is it still better to go for lurkers instead of 11 mutas with Spire build? To be honest I'm very confused and could not figure what I should go for in ZvT coz there are lots of differences in builds. I need the most solid build which is not aggressive (but maybe still could punish overly greedy terran builds like 14 CC no bunker). I can't yet figure out what works and what does not in my games coz the execution is so poor, almost like random wins/losses. I could not micro muta like a pro, though I enjoy this harassing process in the game. Sometimes I can pick off marines and workers. Also when my muta is alive I can take my third safely, there's higher chance that those 3 hydras make it to the ramp in time. Additionally compared to lurker build I can easily defend early tank vessel push off 1 base. Every early tank push with contain is much harder to defend with pure lurker ling. The downside #1 that if my muta dies (which often happens) then I could not take my third and the game is almost over from there. The downside #2 if terran goes for a mech build or 1-1-1 which is popular now I feel safer with lurker build since I have my den earlier and could make hydras in time to defend wraith harass/vulture drops. So I need to pick THE BUILD that's solid enough and aimed for a macro game. Eventually I can do small adjustments to account for different tech trees. I thought lurkers are the way to go but I'm having second thoughts, maybe I should practice plain 3 hatch muta until I get gud with muta micro and shit. I saw effort did his F-rank tutorials on Fish Server where he goes for muta build against T thinking it's better for new players, why didn't he opted for lurkers instead since mutas are micro heavy. Shit, this game is hard to figure out. :D The BO I gave you answers exactly this need... Also any BO with poor execution will fail. | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
flash's is fine too but it's kind of cheesy 3h lurker. a zerg could probably give you a cleaner BO. this is more or less the same as effort's except his is off 9p: 12 h 11 p 13 h 15-16 g 16 ovie lair > speed > den + nat gas > aspect + evo > +1 > spire (scourge) build as many sunks/lings as you need early game once aspect is >50% done build 4-6 hydras for lurker at 25-26 drones pump only lurker/ling until you secure map control rough transition to lategame: once you take map control with lurker/ling take your 3rd and start queen's nest (should be like 50-60 sup, though it varies a lot) here pump a round of drones to saturate your 3rd and add a 5th hatch (target ~35 drones, 1 per patch and 3 on gas) then back to pumping army when consume is out take your 4th, use swarm to pump another round of drones (target ~45 drones, 1 per patch and 3 on gas) alternately: take map control, take 3rd (close 3rd if you want), pump to ~35 drones and add 5th hatch keep pumping lurker/ling forever. wait for T to push out and then crush them, then kill their nat/main | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On November 26 2018 06:57 iFU.pauline wrote: What happens if you do this 16 hatch 16 gas timing but go into a lurker opening instead of muta? Is it just so late that the terran easily contains you?Here is a bo that i like to do that is very safe copied on sAviOr hatch 12 pool11 hatch16 (sAviOr did 15 but me I prefer 16) gas 16 2 ling 1 sunk adjust to the context... In case terran is going for normal fe you can do the following take second gas as soon as you start lair (very important), no speed ling and no lings. make drone until 35, make sunken if needed (you will most likely do since u have no lings), drone until 35 + 3 over 11 muta den hydra speed ling upgrade lurker upgrade. adjust to the context... very defensive coze you can't put pressure on terran until you have muta but efficient because you have good eco having enough to put 4 sunken and have 900/900 when spire pops out. Or you can always try to go the classic lair + speed ling and muta, but nowadays terran have tons of ways to break your timing and therefore is (imo) much harder to execute | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
5rax is gonna be at your doorstep by the time mutas are out | ||
|
SC_ar
United States35 Posts
My Build Roughly: 9 overlord 12 hatch 14 pool 13 gas 15 hatch 14 gas at nat lair / make 2-3 pairs of lings 50% get den > take 2nd gas > speed sunken at nat (as needed) overlord (as needed) > +1 carapace then hydras as needed and make into lurkers when aspect finishes Number of hydras really depends on the map. If you're on Benzene you really only need 3 lurks to defend the nat and you can grab a quick 3rd in the corner. Make two hyrdas when that hatch finishes. You should be able to safely move some lines down there. If you scout that it's straight bio, keep pumping lurks, lings, and get plague. If you see tanks, research spawn broodlings and make Queens (1 for each tank). I've had mixed results on CB and FS. Denying the scout is helpful as some inexperienced players will overcompensate with useless turrets and most Terran will hesitate to move without into the nat without a vessel. I tend to find a lot of success against SK styled builds with Queens in the mix against tanks as a midgame defense to 3 hatch lurker. You can grab ensnare in the super late game if the Terran doesn't take them out. | ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1570 Posts
He goes for a classic 3 hatch muta but put den at the same time as spire and start lurker upgrade. He goes as if he would wait for 900/900 muta, but will make 6 hydra then 6 lings, the point is that if terran scan at that time he will think you morphed 9 muta then he starts making turret expecting for muta. Your hydra pops out you morph lurker and attack while taking your third immediately going into hive. But this is a bit like gambling, terran can scan at the wrong time and bust your strat. It is nowhere near a solid bo. And needless to say that if you play the same terran many times he will easily anticipate it after being caught once... Going lurker because your muta sucks isn't a good approach for improvement and it will make you an easy opponent to deal with once the terran figured out it is the only thing you know how to do. | ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1570 Posts
On November 28 2018 12:51 Dead9 wrote: it's too late for a muta opening 5rax is gonna be at your doorstep by the time mutas are out Also this is not true, I have done this bo million of times, not once I had a 5rax terran in front of my natural before my muta. | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
because 5rax will literally be at your doorstep with 24ish mnm by the time your mutas pop at 715-730 you can get away with 16g but it's weaker/suboptimal. modern 3h muta goes 13h 12g, saviors 16g hasn't been used in like a decade at this point 3h lurker is fine until you get pretty high on the ladder. you can ignore muta builds for a while to simplify gameplay | ||
|
Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On November 28 2018 22:24 Dead9 wrote: I just tested this 16 hatch/16 gas timing and was able to get my mutas to pop at 6:46 or so, a full eleven were morphed and done by 6:55, and that was with me throwing down 4 sunkens before mutas popped. Had a 34 drone economy when i switched into mutas.whats ur mmr because 5rax will literally be at your doorstep with 24ish mnm by the time your mutas pop at 715-730 you can get away with 16g but it's weaker/suboptimal. modern 3h muta goes 13h 12g, saviors 16g hasn't been used in like a decade at this point 3h lurker is fine until you get pretty high on the ladder. you can ignore muta builds for a while to simplify gameplay | ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1570 Posts
On November 28 2018 22:24 Dead9 wrote: whats ur mmr because 5rax will literally be at your doorstep with 24ish mnm by the time your mutas pop at 715-730 you can get away with 16g but it's weaker/suboptimal. modern 3h muta goes 13h 12g, saviors 16g hasn't been used in like a decade at this point 3h lurker is fine until you get pretty high on the ladder. you can ignore muta builds for a while to simplify gameplay My mmr is 1960 but I don't think it is relevant to the topic. I did precise that sAviOr did 15g, I do 16 because I prefer also here is a vod and it was in 2015. Please investigate a bit before throwing statement like that. Also Dazed. this bo is a good starting point to learn z v t before getting into more sophisticated opening, you will do good with that, once you feel more comfortable in the match up you can start trying different things. What you want is to be able to have 9 mutas and engage into the midgame without suffering too much. | ||
|
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
my bad i meant mutas reach their base at 715-730. typical mutas hit at about 645-700 look at a few random pro fpvod, game, or replay, almost all of them are going to be 12g for 3h muta yes i'm sure you can cherry-pick some late gas examples but they are few and far between and again yes you can get away with 16g but it's weaker/suboptimal if it works for you that's great but modern 3h muta is 12g because the muta timing is so important 16g pushes your hive timing back a bit as well, which is another cornerstone of modern zvt | ||
|
QuadroX
386 Posts
| ||
|
iFU.pauline
France1570 Posts
On November 29 2018 03:15 Dead9 wrote: mmr matters because at lower mmrs you can get away with pretty much anything my bad i meant mutas reach their base at 715-730. typical mutas hit at about 645-700 look at a few random pro fpvod, game, or replay, almost all of them are going to be 12g for 3h muta yes i'm sure you can cherry-pick some late gas examples but they are few and far between and again yes you can get away with 16g but it's weaker/suboptimal if it works for you that's great but modern 3h muta is 12g because the muta timing is so important 16g pushes your hive timing back a bit as well, which is another cornerstone of modern zvt Those details don't make a difference at 2000mmr. | ||
|
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On November 25 2018 06:31 hiro protagonist wrote: Flash's stream on more than one occasion while off racing as z he will go for a build that looks 2hatch muta when really he is going 2.5 hatch with the 3rd hatch at another gas expo. By the time the terran has figured it out, (but already built unnecessary turrets), there are lurkers at the 3rd and his nat, keeping him safe from any mnm. from there, he techs super fast to hive for defilers. One detail that he does that ive never seen anyone else do is that while morphing to hive he starts leap froging spore colony's. This keeps his his defilers safe while the vessel count is still low enough. ill see if i can find a vod for it. Edit: Here is an example with flash offracing vs larva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO6RmUYjGC4 Did you mean spores or sunkens? I watched the VOD and I saw him doing it with sunkens while his hive was morphing. If there's one thing we know about Flash is that if he does something differently, it's definitely worth thinking deeply about it. | ||
| ||
