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I posted this is in Strategy forum so we could talk about how they played. I basically wanted to remind people about some of the old pimp 2v2 players. Maybe someone can make a page on Liquipedia about past top 2v2 players.
Mondragon/Testie ZZ (Note: Testie would pick Zerg because Mondragon was a 1v1 player and having a ZZ team meant having a one race team. They very well may have been the best 2v2 team.)
Fabian/Gohan ZP (Old Polish pros from WGT and PGT. Poland has some many great players.)
Dahli/Pythonas ZT (These guys were real Danish brothers in real life.)
White-Ra/Strelok PT (Most 2v2 teams have one zerg. This was the best PT team ever. ZT ZP ZZ and PT are the only combinations that you can win with against good opponents.)
Lazer/Raiser ZT (The German Raiser never was a top player but he finished in top 5 of about every season of PGT and WGT in 2v2. So props to him for that accomplishment. Lazer was a German who used to be Mondragon's ally before Testie started allying Mondragon.)
Jae/Kara ZP (Famous team. Kara was known for using Protoss spells wonderfully.)
FlaF/Oops ZT (Oops might suck but he is at least A- and FlaF usually would not play without the Polish user Oops.)
LastGosu T (He played Terran and was on the top of the ladder almost every season on PGT and WGT)
Tazarro Z (He's not a top player but was Yan's friend and Yan helped him learn the game.)
Nyana Z (Polish gosu that was a micro player and supposed to be one of the best 5 zergs all time.)
Power T/R (I might be horribly wrong on this one, but I think his aka was HNR)Insane. He was a bgh player that could hold his own on 2v2. I think he was A+ 2v2 and he was good enough to be in fosc.)
Yosh(T) One of the best past 2v2 Terran players.
Energy(T) (Not one of the best Terrans, but he was top one of the top players every season on PGT and WGT.)
Skyless(Z) (He was in ToT.)
Zpiet(Z) (He was one of the allies of Kara. Anyone know more about him?
Keeper-Frizz T(He was a real low APM user that just understood the game really well. He used to ally Testie and Drewbie I think.)
Aristeo(R) (Russian gosu that played Random)
Kyopo P (Anyone know more about him?)
Stoprocent Z
Baga Z
Moonshine Z (Anyone know more about him?)
Diestar/Shadow(aka Wraiths) ZT (One of the best past Polish teams. Diestar went on to become one of the best SC2 2v2 players.)
Bonyth P (Another Polish Gosu)
Babo/Drewbie ZT Drewbie was known for "Drewbie Drops" harassment style.
Westside/Lee T (Lee is American Terran player that was one of the top 10 all time. Despite having a low apm had a better understanding of 2v2 than almost anyone. Westside is one of the best APM Zergs of all time.)
Nizzy (Known for being one of the best Zergs in history)
Yan (Best Protoss 2v2 player in history.)
Scan (B+ max 1v1 before sc2)
Xiaozi/LJT (One of the best past 2v2 teams. LJT was a Protoss player that played Random in 2v2. Xiaozi I think mostly played 1v1. LJT was a 2v2 player that played 1v1 occasionally I think.
Belladona (One of the best Zergs. Was in ToT.)
Trutacz Z (Slightly better than the other Polish Zergs that play on Iccup.)
Featjoe/Dark ZZ (Both mass Zergling users but they've been A/A+ since WGT/PGT.)
Pirayaya R (He plays with random ally but has been considered a top player for like 10 years. Not as good as his countrymate Nizzy.
Protech (I don't know anything about him but that he used to play 2v2 on BW and is now considered the best 2v2 players on SC2.
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This is a very weird list. Lazer was Mondragon's ally long before Testie even appeared in the Templar's line up. By far the most successful team in the foreign scene at their time, holding a 90%++ Win ratio in BWCL, WGTCL and nation leagues. I can't remember any team that was even remotely as good as those two. ZZ, one would expand with mass Ling into Lurker/Ling, the other going fast Mutas. Almost unbeatable on the old maps like Lost Temple et al. If I remember correctly, they mostly lost on maps like Dire Straits, HoV or something like that. But even on those, Mondragon's random was rather sick to watch (mind you: in between 2002-2005).
However, back in the time Germany used to have a couple of really good teams. I faintly remember [XiC] (partly a predeccesor of pro Gaming) having very strong teams (BlueScreen[XiC] and Metatron I believe?). Also, Breakdown/Schnibl0r paired up with anyone was strong (at DkH times Breakdown and Socke were both rather good in 2n2 iirc). kArA and others only showed later, but still good enough.
I think the whole 2n2 scene in Germany started to matter less and less with BWCL losing the prestige it once had (starting with the absence of the Templars and the downfall of pro Gaming). Couldn't compare the single 2n2 in WGTCL or most nation leagues to the double team games, that could very well make a huge difference. Personally, I'm not too sad about it.
As for the list goes:
Zpiet was in ash. and I remember him to be a better 1on1 player - at least German B team skill range, if not better at times. I'm not entirely sure, but I think he was kArA's original 2on2 ally? Jae was a relative new player (or he used an AKA I can't recall), I don't think he was on the roster when Betrayal/RineTS were managing the Ger-Teams. If he was, he was more like a part of the B-Line Up. Germany should have had dozens of better players in the era before 2007. Same goes for Kyopo - German B-Team range skill wise and a good substitution for 2n2 teams. Not sure how much better he was than a random ScT/ash/iV./whatever team before Raiser came along. Him and Raiser were okayish subs for the 1n1s, but not really something you could count on "bringing it home". (In comparison to the deep line up all the time with Mondragon/FiSheYe/heXer/Breakdown/Schnibl0r and later GoOdy, kolll, HoRRoR, Closer, DarkGamer, Colle). Therefore good picks for team games, but no idea if that was sooo super important.
Moonshine shouldn't need much of an introduction, he should even have a Liquipedia page. Not sure if he was a 2n2 player by origin, but his 1on1 was rather strong. Therefore: what a weird list and how weird to not know him.
Never heard of players like Protech, Energy, Keeper-Fizz at all, or players like Baga, Yan and Aristeo in the context of 2on2. Probably because 2on2 was really not interesting in the competitive scene outside of ladders. In contrast, I heard a ton about Westside and Lee, but never understood the hype - as I mostly saw them losing in the few matches that "somehow mattered a bit". Not saying they were bad that is. As outsider to the 2n2 community you prolly only remember monster teams like Mondragon + Testie/Lazer.
There are a couple of interesting other players, who played BGH/Mucho/Fastest a ton. At several LANs/fun occasions they sometimes showed that. Most remarkably: almost all oldschool Templars started as BGH players. Shouldn't be a surprise that their 2on2 teams rocked hard, be it Dissy/Lazer or stuff like Enti+Random guy or Ovvi+Random Guy.
Others were GoOdy (aka www)2GoOd4U( at op wax]), who played fun games at the DBBW with infamous Uzi~. Or players like HoRRoR.T (Neptun[cTw]) and Ghosta (GhostDT[BuD]). I'm very sure I forgot some more prominent names, but w/e.
Interesting though, that you added post-beta players in the mix, or players who started to show more shortly before: trutaCz, Belladonna, Nizzy and Scan (pirayayaya <3). I don't think those names can be compared to the old ones, entirely different level of play. Feels weird to have such an all-time list.
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Tazarro's profile simply read: "I blame ally 100%", and I've blaming everything 100% ever since.
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ZT ZP ZZ and PT are the only combinations that you can win with against good opponents.)
ehh some rather vague questions, but I was always curious about it.
What makes Z so special in 2v2, so that only XZ are possible (apart from PT). Why PP and TT can't win, and PT can? I also heard that they banned ZZ teams back then, so sometimes pros went ZR hoping to get ZZ. What's so good about ZZ?
And why did they stop playing 2v2 professionally in Korea?
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51433 Posts
On January 13 2017 08:20 shall_burn wrote:
And why did they stop playing 2v2 professionally in Korea?
players and coaches were complaining that 2v2 practice was eating into their 1v1 practice time and as such petitioned kespa to remove 2v2 from proleague.
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Was 1v1 more important, spectacular, entertaining or something? I've just imagined pro scene being all about 2v2, not 1v1. Like, what if BW evolved in team-work direction.
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On January 13 2017 14:57 shall_burn wrote:
Was 1v1 more important, spectacular, entertaining or something?
Yes.
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On January 13 2017 14:57 shall_burn wrote:
Was 1v1 more important, spectacular, entertaining or something? I've just imagined pro scene being all about 2v2, not 1v1. Like, what if BW evolved in team-work direction.
Although i played a lot of 2on2 in the past: yes.
I am a little bit sad about the list.
Noobs like protech are listed but there were a shitload of very good 2on2 players around in the past not even mentioned here.
You also should list this in "eras". Not all of the meantioned teams were around in the old days or new days.
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This is a very chaotic list. First of all you would have to assign players to eras and then compare players from one era/period if u want to do it
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On January 13 2017 08:20 shall_burn wrote:Show nested quote + ZT ZP ZZ and PT are the only combinations that you can win with against good opponents.) ehh some rather vague questions, but I was always curious about it. What makes Z so special in 2v2, so that only XZ are possible (apart from PT). Why PP and TT can't win, and PT can? I also heard that they banned ZZ teams back then, so sometimes pros went ZR hoping to get ZZ. What's so good about ZZ? And why did they stop playing 2v2 professionally in Korea?
It's zerg early game mobility and ability to create threats to both opponents. This includes zerglings being super fast and deadly and early access to mutalisk that also forces the other team to get anty air static defense or anty air units. All of that also allows your party (e.g the other Z/T/P) to actually go more macro in case there is no Zerg in the opposite team and therefore get ahead. Moreover zerg player provides extra vision, detection and ability to scout enemy base with overlord, a that play a huge role in 2v2 which is very early/mid game oriented. Some primary examples are:
ZP vs PT = Protoss can get mass goon easily without investing in any zealots, or go straight into DT tech without investing in much defense. Zerg also provied vision vs mines and dt's
ZT vs PT = Terran player can easily go into a greedy mech composition securing the map with mines and following up with mass tanks. Also a huge problem with mutalisks as you don't want to add goliaths to your composition (vs tanks?) and investing in corsairs makes your army look much smaller and you'll have big problems clearing mines etc.
ZZ vs PP = huge mobility issues to connect you army and most of the time you'll either be forced to fight zergs 1v2.
ZZ vs TT/PT is acutally quite fine for TT/PT in my opinion as both T and P can play a strong 1 base play allowing to fight cost efficiently 1v2 (as M&M clears most of zerg units and with addition of corsairs you are able to be quite mobile too)
2v2 is different from 1v1 in a way that it's no really to macro as you need to invest significant amount of money into units/defense to hold 2 players attacking 1 player.
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You missed SzybkiLopez/Mixer ... Polish 2v2 gods.
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On January 13 2017 02:22 WhiteKnight.US wrote:
Scan (B+ max 1v1 before sc2)
Why's my introduction so small? roflmao.
Anyways, it's a false statement. I was max a- when I just recently started SC again. There should be an interview somewhere.
I also played like 1v1 and still able to finish the season as rank 1 as first season of 2v2 on iccup(searchable on iccup, iG.TattOO)
In my first season of 2v2, there were Yan, TaZaRRo, Belladona, Viciado, ENERGIE, wendego, Suzigo, JoeKim, LRM)Lee, Nizzy, and more.
And please don't compare different generation players to current.
It sounds like saying Boxer was the best(1st generation) vs Flash(4th generation) was the best during the KeSPA.
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On January 13 2017 20:55 LaStScan wrote:Why's my introduction so small? roflmao. Anyways, it's a false statement. I was max a- when I just recently started SC again. There should be an interview somewhere. I also played like 1v1 and still able to finish the season as rank 1 as first season of 2v2 on iccup(searchable on iccup, iG.TattOO) In my first season of 2v2, there were Yan, TaZaRRo, Belladona, Viciado, ENERGIE, wendego, Suzigo, JoeKim, LRM)Lee, Nizzy, and more. And please don't compare different generation players to current. It sounds like saying Boxer was the best(1st generation) vs Flash(4th generation) was the best during the KeSPA.
I don't see any other Koreans on that list to my knowledge.
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On January 13 2017 21:12 Th1rdEye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 20:55 LaStScan wrote:On January 13 2017 02:22 WhiteKnight.US wrote:
Scan (B+ max 1v1 before sc2) Why's my introduction so small? roflmao. Anyways, it's a false statement. I was max a- when I just recently started SC again. There should be an interview somewhere. I also played like 1v1 and still able to finish the season as rank 1 as first season of 2v2 on iccup(searchable on iccup, iG.TattOO) In my first season of 2v2, there were Yan, TaZaRRo, Belladona, Viciado, ENERGIE, wendego, Suzigo, JoeKim, LRM)Lee, Nizzy, and more. And please don't compare different generation players to current. It sounds like saying Boxer was the best(1st generation) vs Flash(4th generation) was the best during the KeSPA. I don't see any other Koreans on that list to my knowledge.
yan, suzigo, lrm)lee, aaf.cat, aaf.pic(capi) and more. they are all korean.
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On January 13 2017 21:22 LaStScan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 21:12 Th1rdEye wrote:On January 13 2017 20:55 LaStScan wrote:On January 13 2017 02:22 WhiteKnight.US wrote:
Scan (B+ max 1v1 before sc2) Why's my introduction so small? roflmao. Anyways, it's a false statement. I was max a- when I just recently started SC again. There should be an interview somewhere. I also played like 1v1 and still able to finish the season as rank 1 as first season of 2v2 on iccup(searchable on iccup, iG.TattOO) In my first season of 2v2, there were Yan, TaZaRRo, Belladona, Viciado, ENERGIE, wendego, Suzigo, JoeKim, LRM)Lee, Nizzy, and more. And please don't compare different generation players to current. It sounds like saying Boxer was the best(1st generation) vs Flash(4th generation) was the best during the KeSPA. I don't see any other Koreans on that list to my knowledge. yan, suzigo, lrm)lee, aaf.cat, aaf.pic(capi) and more. they are all korean.
Yeah.... but that was your list. Im talking about OP  And, Yan isn't korean as far as I know.
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On January 13 2017 21:25 Th1rdEye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2017 21:22 LaStScan wrote:On January 13 2017 21:12 Th1rdEye wrote:On January 13 2017 20:55 LaStScan wrote:On January 13 2017 02:22 WhiteKnight.US wrote:
Scan (B+ max 1v1 before sc2) Why's my introduction so small? roflmao. Anyways, it's a false statement. I was max a- when I just recently started SC again. There should be an interview somewhere. I also played like 1v1 and still able to finish the season as rank 1 as first season of 2v2 on iccup(searchable on iccup, iG.TattOO) In my first season of 2v2, there were Yan, TaZaRRo, Belladona, Viciado, ENERGIE, wendego, Suzigo, JoeKim, LRM)Lee, Nizzy, and more. And please don't compare different generation players to current. It sounds like saying Boxer was the best(1st generation) vs Flash(4th generation) was the best during the KeSPA. I don't see any other Koreans on that list to my knowledge. yan, suzigo, lrm)lee, aaf.cat, aaf.pic(capi) and more. they are all korean. Yeah.... but that was your list. Im talking about OP And, Yan isn't korean as far as I know.
Yan is Korean. He was working at his cousin or uncle's company with his working visa in Canada.
He is currently living in Korea.
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Oh. There is another yan in the 2n2 scene. I thought he spoke about the guy from Ukraine, who was rather good around 2005. Right then.
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Thanks for answering my questions, guys.
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Back in the prime ICCup 2v2 days, Capi was by far the best player. Main players i remember playing in those days were Capi, Yan, Westside, Nyana, Lee, Nizzy, Xiaozi/LJT(although they werent super active ladder 2x2 players), Babo, Drew, Hung, and Member (there were a few other kors but i forgot their id). I remember seeing Scan's id (iG.TatoO) on ladder 2x2 but i dont remember playing him a lot. This was around 2007-2009 btw, i prolly forgot a bunch of players but those are the main ones i remember.
I remember seeing Bella's id a lot towards ~ 2009 but by then people started switching to SC2
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On January 14 2017 09:56 TT1 wrote:
Back in the prime ICCup 2v2 days, Capi was by far the best player. Main players i remember playing in those days were Capi, Yan, Westside, Nyana, Lee, Nizzy, Xiaozi/LJT(although they werent super active ladder 2x2 players), Babo, Drew, Hung, and Member (there were a few other kors but i forgot their id). I remember seeing Scan's id (iG.TatoO) on ladder 2x2 but i dont remember playing him a lot. This was around 2007-2009 btw, i prolly forgot a bunch of players but those are the main ones i remember.
I remember seeing Bella's id a lot towards ~ 2009 but by then people started switching to SC2
I played a lot. also streamed like 99% of the games.
I was a rookie who had potential to become so much better just like
boxer(strats inventor and some small groups micro)
-> nada(micro and multitasking)
-> iloveoov(game knowledge+macro)
-> flash(absorbs everything of 3 old generation best terrans in their era)
I would say modern 2v2 players are much better because of more optimization with the build order and micro management.
also, most of 1v1 pros(talking about fish) don't want to go back to 1v1.
they are carrying over their 1v1 skills into 2v2 and performing much higher quality games.
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EPT
