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TvP axiom build order

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
August 21 2016 16:43 GMT
#1
Last christmas I had a correspondence with Letabot about axiom build orders for the 3 terran matchups. I suggested 1 build order for each matchup to act as the starting point for 'the perfect build order'.

For the opening I chose rax expo ->1 tank 4 vult
A close second (and something we deviate into depending on scouting informaton) is rax expo ->8 marine pure tank

For the overall style, we are doing 2 fac then 3rd base, and then going into a 3 base 2-1 upgrade 24 tank 3 vessel attack.
Our surprise alternative build will be rax expo->5 fac attack.
Depending on the map, we might get 3 facs before 3rd cc as well.

The idea here was to do a quick first pass and then slowly add more nuance and detail. So I wrote the guide and then asked Letabot for questions. He is ok with me posting this publicly.


Rax expo, 2 facs, academy, ebay, 3rd cc, armoury, 2nd gas, 3rd and 4th fac, star, 5th fac, science facility and 2nd armoury, 6th and 7th fac and 3rd machine shop, 8th and 9th fac, 4th cc

This is going up against Protoss doing:
1 goon expo (or 3 goon expo), robo, 3rd nexus, observatory, 2nd 3rd and 4th gate, citadel, forge, 4th nexus, 5th and 6th gate, star and archives, 7th and 8th gate and tribunal, 2nd and 3rd forge, 5th nexus, 9th and 10th gate, up to 14 gates (in main), 4 gates in new main, 8 gates, 12 gates. 6th nexus is delayed for several minutes.

Ofcourse there are many deviations that we might scout and have to alter our build order and more. But that is the ideal flow.

Next I will just say a few quick tips.

TvP
Get 2 machine shops straight away. Get 1 tank and siege mode. Then get 4 vults with both upgrades. Then continuous tanks from those 2 facs.
Make a turret in the nat, a turret next to the main cc, and a turret in the main on the cliff overlooking the nat.
Make the 3rd cc in the main (or at the nat depending on map), and float it out to the 3rd. Move out to take the 3rd base when you have 5 tanks. (simplifying ofcourse)
We are aiming for a 3 base, 24 tank, 2-1 upgrade attack but can move out much sooner if the opportunity arises. For example moving out to attack with just 7 tanks can be a very dangerous timing attack.
When on 5 facs, you have 2 with machine shops making tanks.
When on 7 facs, have 3 with machine shops making tanks.
When on 9 facs, still have only 3 factories making tanks, and make vults from the other 6. Get 3 vessels with emp, and 8 goliaths to support our primary 24 tank, 24 vult attack.

The protoss build order Ive written above is very cutting edge, particularly to get the 4th nexus after 4 gateways (though Jangbi has got it even earlier on only 3 gates). Some people might get 4th nexus after 6 gates. Its common for 4th nexus to be taken after 8 gates and arbiter tribunal. A late 4th nexus style is after 12 gates, 3 forges and arbiter tribunal. It depends partly on how effective our vult control has been at sniping probes that try to move out to start the 4th nexus.

If we scout no nexus at the nat and don’t get to see the main, we have to make ebay after 1 fac and a turret at the nat incase of dt.
If we scout 3 base carrier, go to 11 facs and don’t get the 3rd machine shop.

Basic gameflow:
We are expecting Protoss to get 20 goons and be defensive with them, then he will mass on 5 bases and 3 forges. His first army will have 30 zealots, 20 goons, 1 arbiter with stasis, 4 ht in a shuttle and he will meet us in the middle for a direct army vs army fight. He will re-mass using his 26 gates 1 star. And his 2nd army will be similar, but with 3 arbiters casting stasis. He will try to deny Terran ever taking a 4th base, and will try to crush the Terran army in continuous direct army vs army fights rather than use recalls or backstabs.

Example games
Reality vs Best on Jade (1 tank 6 vult instead of 4) (terran loses)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/104906_BeSt_vs_Reality

Rush vs Sun on La Mancha (3 base carrier defense) (terran loses)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/74727_Rain_vs_Rush

Flash vs Dear on Neo Jade (1 tank 6 vult instead of 4) (7 tank attack) (terran wins)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/117050_Dear_vs_Flash

Flash vs Jangbi on Jade (goes pure tank early game instead of 1 tank 4 vult) (the lategame Terran attack is perfect though) (terran wins)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/107146_Flash_vs_JangBi

Note that most of the example games don’t do everything I recommend, there are little details throughout.
For example, Flash skips making turrets vs Dear. And similarly with the Protoss builds, they aren’t 100 percent what Ive recommended Protoss to do in the post above either.
They are still very good games to study and copy. If you can get anywhere close to these then things will be going great!

Ive been really careful to get the absolute perfect build orders in my post. If in doubt, follow my recommendation in the post rather than what happens in the example games.


I actually think that there would probably be much easier builds for a bot eg
TvP rax expo to 5 fac attack with 8 marines eg flash vs tyson on neo ground zero
Letabot asked about defending zealot pressure after using rax expo.
+ Show Spoiler +
For 2 gate zealot openings, it is hard to defend. The first thing we have to make sure is that we have a barracks and a supply depot touching the right hand side of the barracks. Marines can fit through the gap but zealots cant. This wall is inside our main base, near the top of the ramp. The depot wants to not be in the way for future factory placement ideally.
The most important thing is dont let the initial marines die. Sounds stupid I know. But so many pros get greedy and try to get extra shots in but end up losing the initial marines 1 by 1. Its critical to simply keep them alive while their numbers build up. Once you have 3 marines you are far far safer. Keep making marines non stop for this period, dont stop after 4. Stop when you have 8 and replenish back up to 8 if any die.
To fend off the initial zealots, use 4-6 scv.
Infact if you scout just a single zealot, I recommend putting 4 scv on your ramp to prevent the 1st zealot even getting into the main. The zealot might still get in but will have taken some damage to get up the ramp and its worth it. Some pros do this occasionally, its a bit overkill but I actually think its a very acceptable move and certainly worth it in our case. Once he has 2 zealots in your main use 6 scv (up to 8) to really get the situation under control. We just wanna clean them out of the main as a priority but keep/put 1 marine in the bunker and maybe 2 scv on the ramp to stop anymore zealots or the first goon from getting into the main too easily. Constant marine production, let the numbers build while the scvs try to screen and trap zealots.

You mention the zealots are killing the bunker. This suggests the protoss is probably letting his zealot number grow before sending all at once in a slightly delayed attack. The scv scouts should be informing you that he is making zealots. And the lack of goon pressure also is a clue. This is a perfect situation to switch the build from 1 tank 4 vult and instead go into the 8 marine pure tank variation. If we have extra marines when his zealots hit, terran will hold easily. Again, the scv scouts should be able to see this attack coming and give time to get scv in place to block and repair the bunker. Have 3-4 scv at the bunker ready to start repairing by this point anyway even if the bunker isnt taking any damage (he might be about to step in with 6 goons at once). If we know he is one base then all we have to do is hold. The priority is protecting the bunker and first tank with scvs.
If the zealots come in and you dont have scv ready to repair, you should still be able to hold though. Pull all the scv from the nat and get stuck in, get the marines back behind them if possible (but it might not be so just let them shoot instead if so). Lift the nat cc and float it towards the main if needed. If the zealots are able to penetrate you must pull the scv back to the main ramp and focus on blocking it so that the 1st tank is safe. You are still miles ahead by the way even if the nat cc lifts. Once his attack peters out, just reland the nat cc and re sim city the nat and continue the build. Be ready to switch into a 2 base 4 fac attack and go kill him.

I know it can go so horribly wrong though. Zealots are a pain in the ass. Here is terran losing, Sea vs Jangbi Ground Zero
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/96215_JangBi_vs_Sea/vod

At 5.41 in the vod, Sea is in a great position, he has killed the first zealot and his bunker is nearly done. The 2nd and 3rd zealot come in though and snipe a couple of marines. He needed to instead just run them away into his main, pull a couple of scv, and when his 4th marine pops run it away to the bunker. A bad situation we sometimes see is when Terran seems to be holding well and has 3 marines alive. However they are all on 1 hit and the next zealot comes along. The terran tries to get fancy and engages without scvs and it just often quickly goes sour for Terran. All 3 marines get killed by the zealot, 1 hit on each and suddenly there is no DPS to put inside the bunker etc. Gotta save those marines. A method you can employ that is a bit strange is when a marine is down to 1 hit, pretend like it is dead and you cant use it anymore, so micro it to a safe zone far from the action. Continue playing and then a few moments later suddenly you have an ‘extra’ couple of marines in your pocket which is often much more useful than if you had continued fighting with them, because all that would have happened is they get 1 small weak gauss rifle shot off before dying.

I should mention walling. Many terrans will recommend you wall at the nat with first (or second) depot and build rax at the nat too to form a zealot tight wall with the cc (when doing rax expo).
I prefer the style where you depot, rax, depot all in your main, then make cc at the nat, then float the rax to the nat. Its kind of boring and we go round and round in circles on this subject. There are much more interesting things to talk about. But then again, its early game, and this is the most important stage in some ways. So if someone desperately wants to talk about it we can ofcourse. So the first depot is built near the main cc (below and 1 tile gap). The rax is built near the main ramp but not too far from the main cc and the second depot is built touching the rax on the right hand edge. Cc is built at the nat. The potential problems are:
-proximity 2 gate zealot
-proximity 1 gate zealot
-1 gate zealot from a gateway built at the protoss nat
-continuous zealot from standard (in main) 1 gate (that’s 3,4 or more zealots)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/417974-pvt-opening-3-zealot-cyber-core

Walling at the nat has a vulnerability vs proxy gates which Protoss can exploit and develop into a win (a bit too consistently for my liking). For me it’s a bit too much of a weakness such that I recommend an alternative. Some people say well Protoss doesn’t do proxy gates very often so it’s a risk worth taking. It’s a legitimate argument but I prefer builds that don’t rely on such things.
Walling at the nat is ok vs continuous zealots (be it from gate in the main or gate at the nat). So that’s a plus point for it just about.

Making depot rax depot in the terran main is a bit better vs proxy gates. For me its just enough over 50% consistently reliable to recommend (I dunno lets say its 65% while walling at the nat would be 40% or something). By no means is it easy (no build is though). This style is a bit harder to establish your nat cc though. A single zealot is not too hard to deal with for pros. 2 zealots can be a bit annoying but normally pros handle that just fine. 3 or more is when it starts getting irritating. Its tricky, it’s a problem, but it is possible to defend.
I guess the last thing to mention is that a bot might be able to go cc first every game even on 2 player maps and always win with superior micro one day.


If you want to read more about the intricacies of defending 1 base reaver and similar bits and bobs, check out this post. I warn its quite boring and non essential:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/365955-1-rax-fe-tvp?page=2#24
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
August 14 2017 14:22 GMT
#2
On August 14 2017 09:55 DreXxiN wrote:
In a 1rax FE for TvP follow up, after establishing siege and a few tanks, would it be wise to research mines and speed before adding 2 facts on 2gas?


To answer your question, think about your game plan. Are you taking a 3rd cc or are you doing a factory heavy attack on 2 base basically.
And in more detail, how many tanks are you making before getting some vults? Are you aiming to make 2 armouries quite quickly? Are you making a dropship?
If you are doing a factory heavy play, you are probably aiming to go to 5 facs, with 5,7 or 9 tanks ish. So basically you are 'slowly' building up your tank count while prioritising setting up the infrastructure for the factory heavy attack (read building factories before vult production begins). Then when the factories are all ready and you move out to attack you are making waves of vults that come directly to fight the protoss army head on. The preparation phase for this attack is during the time before protoss has observers so cant scout inside the terran main.

However you can instead make some earlier vults and use them in a different way. Normally this is if you are planning on going to 3 base 'quickly'. The vults are used to threaten workers in a runby (potentially killing a lot if protoss doesnt defend properly). The vults can attempt to snipe the probe trying to make the 3rd nexus, and can lay mines behind goons etc. These threats force the protoss to be defensive. Once he defends it, he has observers that can see the terran build order. He can quickly respond now by adding more gates if needed, so a factory heavy follow up attack from the terran is less effective.

Simplifying here but in the earlier stages of the game tanks are kind of essentially defensive while vults can be used offensively in a powerful way vs what the Protoss has at those timings. There is a style of playing TvP where the current thinking is that the earlier you can get vultures the better. You want to get the vults as soon as possible after making sure you are safe from all possible threats. These vults may be able to do a lot of damage. At minimum they will still pressure the protoss so he has to be defensive. He must retreat his goons, make pylon walls, get observers etc. So yes you will be getting vulture upgrades in the machine shops and starting vult production while still on 2 facs (on 1 gas) (if you want to emulate this particular pro style).
But that is just one way of doing it, you can instead build a developing threat. That is continuously develop a heavy tank count for a 'later' attack (technically there are different timing attacks available depending on the protoss build etc). This tank heavy style has a different flavour and is very dangerous in its own right.

There are early-ish timing attacks where tanks are the backbone of the army (5 tanks etc). And there are timings where an early squad of vultures are very dangerous. It is great if you are able to execute different builds that take advantage of all of these timings and ask questions of the protoss player (can he defend against it). Its up to you how many builds you want to learn, whatever is most fun for you.

The OP covers rax expo ->1 tank 4 vult
Its a very powerful build that you might want to have in your repertoire.

Vs goon openings, the fastest you can switch to vult production is after 1 tank and this is quite commonly done. Sometimes terrans will get 2, 3, 4, or 5 tanks though. Sometimes they will go 'pure tank', getting 8 tanks then moving out to claim the 3rd base. Sometimes they will attack strongly with 5 tanks, other times they will be very defensive with the same 5 tanks.
As you can see there are lots of possibilities.
Building more tanks before vults makes you safer vs reavers and shuttle attacks and frontal goon attacks. However, it is technically possible to defend all attacks with the 1 tank then vult build. Sometimes its actually easier; the vults are easy to re-position, and mines have the potential to quickly shut down a reaver. And sometimes just the threat of mines can encourage the protoss to fly his reaver away. Once the reaver threat is over, the vults can counter attack hard, often harder than with more tank heavy openings, which can enable you to win the game sooner and more easily.

If you mix it up, sometimes going 1 tank then vult, and sometimes getting more tanks first you will make life very difficult for your opponent. But answering your question, yes if you are going 3 command centre on 2 factories and wanting to use an early squad of vults to pressure protoss, then you will very likely be getting vulture upgrades before 2nd gas, and 3rd and 4th factory. But you might choose to go pure tank style (see Flash vs Jangbi on Jade in the example games in the guide). In this game, Flash actually gets 2nd gas, starport, 3rd gas, science facility and 2nd armoury, and is making 4 more facs (going up to 6 total) before making any vultures and vulture upgrades. This was cross spawn on Jade vs the build that Jangbi used (goon expo -> 1 gate 3 nexus -> 3 gate 4th nexus -> 7 gate 5th nexus) Later he has 3 forges spinning and 2 stargates while on 13 gates. Both players are very econ and tech heavy. Both players were reacting to each other.

Obviously the amount of gas you need is tied to the build you are doing. So if you are going vults and a 3rd cc then you dont need the 2nd gas as early. Its chicken and egg though. Terran is partly saying what can I get with a mineral heavy resource income and the answer is academy, ebay, command centre, turrets, vultures. Everything ties in with everything else.

Quick mention is maps. On some maps terran cant expand as quickly in a safe manner with these unit counts. This style of map has been being used more commonly recently in tournaments. Terrans have been doing more tech heavy midgames, turtle on 2 base more, then a later 3rd base with a higher unit count. Thats how you have to play on these kinds of maps. So you would be getting 2nd gas earlier, and would probably concede map control (in other words not get vults and upgrades for them so soon). Using a dropship is slightly more common in these scenarios too, again meaning an earlier 2nd gas is likely.

The fact that you are asking about rax expand follow ups shows that you like the idea of trying to emulate pretty difficult pro builds. Some people here will say that doing factory openers are slightly more forgiving while still being very strong. But as you are asking about rax expo, I dont feel bad referring you to my guide with the cutting edge pro build orders. You can watch the example games in the OP if you want. Be mindful they are difficult builds though. Doing a more factory heavy midgame might be more comfortable / successful.

If Terran opens rax expand (or cc first) and if Protoss opens nexus first, or gateway expand (no cyber core expand) Terran can skip making any initial tanks and can immediately build vults with speed and mines (or atleast the pros can). In this scenario making 8 vults before beginning tank production is acceptable.
This is a response that can be used in any spawn position. Personally I recommend it only for cross spawn though. If close spawn its very deadly to instead do an early attack with 6 scv, marines and a vulture.
This paragraph was just to mention that you dont even necessarily have to build a single tank in the opening, but this is only if Protoss expanded without a cyber core.

Ive written way too much, and it can be counter productive to overload with information when learning something. Sorry about that, I was just enjoying writing about brood war strategy and got carried away.
Keep watching pro games and watch the order they get their buildings and units when compared to what the opponent gets.
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
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