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hey ppl. i like to experiment with strats, coz i play terran and their usual TvP is kinda boring for my taste. I mean, its practically turtle till max.
Thats why i try to break monotony by tryin all kinds of rushes (like gundam) so the game gets exciting at least for a bit with all the micro needed.
Anyways, some time ago (almost 2 yrs) i thought about containing toss with early mines, academy, scan, flare. Then, after reading some TL, i realized its not really an original idea, and that there's a known variation of joyo push(i think) that actually involves the mentioned technique. Now that i've played PGT in the time that has passed, i realized that normal teching to fact, then mines, then academy, then Flare upgrade, scan etc is kinda too widespread to be viable.
However, i thought about this thing for a while and i think it could be useful.
Here's the idea: U play normal TvP till u get ur academy(early mid game i guess) for scanning purposes. Then u upgrade optical flare and train a couple of medics from that lazy rax.
At this stage, u'll most likely have main and natural active so the 100/100 flare cost practically wont affect ur unit count.
Now, the flare obviously wont be used for containing toss, coz he's already expanded, has observers all over the map...
I think it can be utilized nicely and give u advantage when ur forced to unsiege ur forces and go kill some exp ur opponent did. We all know its important to make it hard for toss to move around the map as they will. Thats why i usually plant mass mine fields at certain areas so it slows the toss down. Basically, u do the usual thing, but in every mine field u keep one medic, so when u see the toss killin mines to he can move his troops to save his exp just scan the area and blind the obs. In worst case, u will slow him down till a new obs comes, but if ur lucky, some goons will get pwned.
My idea is this; protoss has a powerful army, but 125 mine-dmg hittin massed goons is their nightmare. Now, i dont think toss has more than 1 obs with his troops unless goin carriers. U blind the obs, and the powerful army is stopped, at least for a while.
This is basically for cutting the toss circulation, which we know is an important thing.
This strat:
- is not resource intensive
- is not too micro intensive
- can come in handy when toss army is split
Here's a rep of me doing this, in a not-so-useful situation tho, but u'll perhaps get my idea.
Im not a very skilled player and neither is my opponent aparently, but, iono, have a look(watch at around 12min 45sec).
http://www.sendspace.com/file/1znae3
EDIT:
new rep, vs some random LT guy (noob obviously). Altho he is a newb, this situation can happen to more skilled ppl than him. He wanted to exp, i sent some vults to kill probe. He sent part of his army to kill my vults, i planted mine field and attacked his nat with all i got. He tried to pull his army back to defend, started killin mines, i blinded and he lost all his army.
have a look:
rep: http://www.sendspace.com/file/rfh339
EDIT2:
This time it went to late game, we were approaching Max and i used Blind and lured some goons on mines. 5-6 goons died, and some zealots. Enough for him not to be able to defend against my all-out.
rep: http://www.sendspace.com/file/63e7wg
EDIT3:
I lost this one vs some Korean guy. He outmacroed me, and i had 3K min when the game ended. But at one point, i cut out half of his army with mines and blind. This actually works like Stasis field, one part of the army is locked out of battle.
rep: http://www.sendspace.com/file/9voj8x
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More trouble than it's worth IMO. One of those things that is nice in theory but when applied to real games just won't work that well and doesn't accomplish a whole lot.
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...Or the protoss could just take out all the mines with a zealot or two.
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On October 29 2006 15:15 Jawa~ wrote:
More trouble than it's worth IMO. One of those things that is nice in theory but when applied to real games just won't work that well and doesn't accomplish a whole lot.
i read a lot of theorycrafting around here, but i dont think this is hard to do.
Basically u plant a normal mine field. When u get the "ur forces are under atack" u press 0 for Comsat, scan and flare the obs. ur shit is done then, u can go macro ur factories and stuff.
On October 29 2006 15:16 lazymej wrote:
...Or the protoss could just take out all the mines with a zealot or two.
and when the zealots die? he cant know how many mines are there, he wont just keep suiciding his units...
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its more trouble to have to make medic do upgrades blah blah blah blah
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This would be a fun strat. And if the toss didn't notice his obs was blind, like if he was busy with something else and just scanned the area and didn't see any mines, it could net some kills. But it's really micro intensive (more than it sounds) and most people wouldn't ever do it.
I think it could work, but not in a really high level game or anything.
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Boxer did it a couple of times.
But he was having a blast and messing around with his opponent.
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I think this requires a tremendous amount of control relative to its gains. However, it definitely has potential. If you can do this without hindering your micro/macro, it's definitely worth it.
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I'd rather spend my scans on other things.
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yeah, you already have tons of shit to control and move around, you should be more focused on spreading tanks, sieging unsieging, moving vults, planting mines, macroing and stuff. in a skilled game where action take place all the time after mid game it is really hard to implement, plus think that chasing down observers with goliaths is easier + goliaths are fighting units and useful vs shuttles.
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ask artosis about this hes master of optic flare in tvp
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This strat does exactly what it set out to do: make TvP more interesting  good job
everyone says OMFG TOO HARDDDDD i suck at teh micro. but with a little practice, these things become fine... its like the terran science cloud in TvZ... thats alot of micro, all that irradiating, but no one complains cause they are used to it. once you have the habit this strat could be a very useful
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well i think the problem youll find that your TvP are boring is just because of playing ppl at your level. playing protosses that are better then you and youll see why some terrans dread playing TvP
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Well if he's doing a full on attack, any decent P is going to run his zealots and therefore your mines into your tanks. So really, it doesn't seem viable IMO.
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How much does it cost again? 100 or 75 energy for optic flare?
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what would this do? this would only work if the toss a\had an isolated expo that you are going to kill and then u stop his army for a bit and kill it. wouldn't u be losing at this point anyway? i would rather set up gosu flanks.
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you know, you can just bring a goliath or two, and that also prevents shuttles from being effective
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United States5262 Posts
I'm digging this idea actually.
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A few Goliaths is just better, alot of high level terrans scan+snipe obs these days.
It'd only be useful if the observer retained it's vision but just had no detection, and I don't think it does 
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
if you do this as some sort of rush where he won't have many observers and won't notice that they're blind, you can catch him off guard as he microes against you.
it would be really really sick =)
i don't know how viable this is in standard games though
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i think this is viable if you have enough micro to do the regular TvP crap well, while teching medics and flaring observers. as said before, scans could be put to better use as well.
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Very nice idea, I'm gonna try this :p
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I had this done to me a long time ago by eri rofl i probably still have the rep ~_~
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I used flare once to nuke a toss, was a cool game to play, nuked the toss like 8 times and then ran out of gas ;p.
Stupid rush hour and its 2500 gas expos. t.t
Funny thing is, had i done any other thing than that, like playing normal or w/e, i would have prolly got owned much sooner, i just suck that bad at tvp and he wasnt so bad :p
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Just some people trying to save a useless spell...
Like the subwoofer in PvZ... trying to save Scouts-a useless unit.
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nothing in starcraft is useless kthx
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In the progaming scene it is....
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I've seen rA use ur mom...
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On October 29 2006 21:00 Scorpion wrote:
In the progaming scene it is....
boxer flaring up observers and smashing carriers didnt seem useless to me
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This sounds really good in theory. However, in reality you forget that a good toss will clear standing (unprotected) mine fields extremely quickly. If you do manage to set it up a good toss will only move his obs in range while having goons nearby. This makes micro actually difficult. Imagine being able to notice an ob moving in range of mines (the hardest part) scanning and then targeting before the mines are clear/the medic killed. Specially if the P has obs speed which most good p users get mid game for mobility. Further if you are planning to blind obs that go close to your push (army); then it becomes far more wise to simply spend for 4-5 marines(which you will probably have anyways) and kill the obs flat out. So ya its cute and could get you some style points but to actually spend time and a little focus on preparing this is a waste of time
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On October 29 2006 21:46 Alborz wrote:boxer flaring up observers and smashing carriers didnt seem useless to me
A player of that caliber would find it far easier to kill them with targeting. He was being cute.
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I will upload the game that I had it done to me when rapidshare.de stops being full or I find another place. Its pretty funny actually. Its 2 years old but I think it still works.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 29 2006 23:05 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2006 21:46 Alborz wrote:On October 29 2006 21:00 Scorpion wrote:
In the progaming scene it is.... boxer flaring up observers and smashing carriers didnt seem useless to me A player of that caliber would find it far easier to kill them with targeting. He was being cute.
What?
You guys are all wrong. It was a desperation move by boxer (which worked) but he lost the game anyway.
And it's different cause cloaked wraiths raped so many carriers really quickly. Blinding obs in normal TvP....saves your mines?
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i _really_ think this has potential (i wouldnt have written this otherwise duh) thats why im gonna do it in all my TvP in the next few days to try to make some nice reps for upload.
I agree with some1 who said ppl think this is to micro intensive just coz its not a usual strat.
Lemme try to prove my point.
What if i suggested this strat 5 years ago(have no idea when it was invented, but if i was the one to suggest it first):
"in ZvP u fast lair, Den, lurks, at the same time upgrade speed lords and make spire. then u move ur lurks to toss' base and burrow in front. U get some Lords and scourges there, and when u see him trying to get out of his baze, u kill the obs with scourges so he cant kill ur lurks, and he has to withdraw. then u exp like crazy."
Ppl would call it theorycrafting, but if im not mistaken thats the usual lurker contain(i could be wrong, never played Z). And personally, i find it more micro intensive to chase the obs with scourge than to blind it.
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better would be to blind mines. it's like ally mine, only legal. the mine will blow up only when a unit is standing one square away from it. two of those can waste 12 zeals if placed in the middle of nowhere where toss will not see the need to use obs...
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some time (maybe 1-2 years) ago it was used a lot.
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to all the ppl that said "just use rines/goliaths" or "the zeals will just run into ur tanks" it not what this is about.
The main purpose of this is to limit the movement for toss making it harder for toss set up flanks and attack from multiple directions. The minefield supported by medic doesnt have to be near ur troops at all, u can do this in the paths all over the map, paths toss is likely to take.
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Didn't drone try this some time ago? I remember a thread about it when discussing cute strats.
Don't think it worked very well tho.
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i'll put the reps in the first post.
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On October 29 2006 23:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2006 23:05 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On October 29 2006 21:46 Alborz wrote:On October 29 2006 21:00 Scorpion wrote:
In the progaming scene it is.... boxer flaring up observers and smashing carriers didnt seem useless to me A player of that caliber would find it far easier to kill them with targeting. He was being cute. What? You guys are all wrong. It was a desperation move by boxer (which worked) but he lost the game anyway. And it's different cause cloaked wraiths raped so many carriers really quickly. Blinding obs in normal TvP....saves your mines?
agreed, the gas used is better spent on tanks
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Another idea with optic flare that some guys did to me a few weeks ago in 2v2:
T goes normal bio but with optic flare as first academy uppgrade.
P goes DT.
I am Z, my ally is P.
You can guess the rest... I first thought it was some bug when I heard the "tzzinn" of the DTs at my sunken with my OL just next to it...
We are newbs, and the other guys were probably better than us, but I cant really see why it wouldn't be viable at higher level. I mean, it is not like you can micro your slow OL a lot. Of course, the gosus never seems to play 2v2... Or do they?
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Boxer vs SaFT on LT......
SaFT went early 2 stargate carriers, looked like he had the game won.
Boxer charges in with optical flare on observes and then just takes carriers down with ghost / wraith / goliath combo.
SICK.
Old old old game, but still pure art.
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anyone feels like takin a look at those reps from first post...?
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I wanted to watch the rep but it was corrupted.
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rep killing the goons at 3 was sweet!
but its mostly useless vs anyone good =(
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look the replay in EDIT3 from the first post, its the most representative and my opponent is the most skilled player i tried this against.(201 apm, 71macro, 26% hotkey and decent skill i'd say)
I lost the game(coz i didn bring a fresh medic from my nat), but i believe u can see how powerful this can be if used in the right situation. I was able to contain half of his army and then kill the other half... Unfortunately i forgot to send new medic so he was able to break thru and flank me.
PS u must view this rep using BWLauncher, otherwise it seems like its corrupt.
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On October 29 2006 23:03 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:This sounds really good in theory. However, in reality you forget that a good toss will clear standing (unprotected) mine fields extremely quickly. If you do manage to set it up a good toss will only move his obs in range while having goons nearby. This makes micro actually difficult. Imagine being able to notice an ob moving in range of mines (the hardest part) scanning and then targeting before the mines are clear/the medic killed. Specially if the P has obs speed which most good p users get mid game for mobility. Further if you are planning to blind obs that go close to your push (army); then it becomes far more wise to simply spend for 4-5 marines(which you will probably have anyways) and kill the obs flat out. So ya its cute and could get you some style points but to actually spend time and a little focus on preparing this is a waste of time
simple as that.
But if ur goal is to get FUN, you should try everything you want, you wont be the next oov anyway.. always play 4 fun!
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Sweden33719 Posts
Lol, I used to do this a bit while I still played terran.. Make a MILLION vultures and get every single observer with a bunch of medics ;D
When I did this I usually opened 2 fac vult + medic tho, and expoed if I couldn't do any damage.
Man, I had another gosu strat.. 1 fac cc, sneak out 4-5 scvs, make barracks with all of them while 2 fac tanking from main :D
Oh man, that was art.
Hm, and marine medic tank rushing (I had art timing) on Dahlia.. Then I had been preparing this marine medic tank into proxy starport for dropping units down at his nat on dahlia (unfortunately it sucked balls vs reaver/dt ).
Man, terran is such a cool race, protoss doesn't have as many artsy tactics honestly :[
On October 29 2006 20:40 Cloud wrote:
I used flare once to nuke a toss, was a cool game to play, nuked the toss like 8 times and then ran out of gas ;p.
Stupid rush hour and its 2500 gas expos. t.t
Funny thing is, had i done any other thing than that, like playing normal or w/e, i would have prolly got owned much sooner, i just suck that bad at tvp and he wasnt so bad :p
I had a very nice TvP vs maleorderbride, like 40 minutes of nuke attempts + blinds and lockdowns and drops xD
Ahh, this reminds me of a very old strat I used to like on Lost Temple 2 T vs 9 P, I opened gundam, but it was very loose and instead lead to a 'fast' expo if it didn't succeed, then I would drop his cliff (since it's so big and covers 2 nexii) while adding a second starport and another factory or two, then I would make BC/Tank :D
Oh and my ZvP was legendary.. Tonnes of queens flying around, defiler rushes were frequent, and lots and lots and lots of gayness (I couldn't win ZvP games without guardians naturally my biggest fear was corsair/dt).
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I'm a fan of the blind mine rush.
Haha, does this even exist?
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Medic cost : 50/25
Observer cost : 25/75
Games winning with gay strats vs noobs : Priceless
Umm FA I think toss have a lot of art strats - goon+web, stove, arbiter+reaver, hallucinations...
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im tellin you guys, this is not as marginal strat as u speak of it.
matter fact, if nada does it in a single match, ppl will embrace this...
just watch my replay in EDIT3 and u'll see what i mean. its equivalent to stasis field if toss' army is divided.
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United States101 Posts
I like the idea. perhaps not always viable or worthwhile, but would definitly get you some stye points (those matter too...don't they?)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On October 30 2006 08:37 LastWish wrote:
Medic cost : 50/25
Observer cost : 25/75
Games winning with gay strats vs noobs : Priceless
Umm FA I think toss have a lot of art strats - goon+web, stove, arbiter+reaver, hallucinations...
But they are not as cute :[
Toss really doesn't have 2 completely separate tech trees (ie mech / bio-mech).
Although I remember when gorky park was being used I experimented with sair reaver vs terran LOL :D
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not sure who blinding obs is more beneficial then killing them... golat mine filed instead of medic, and you have a better strat, medics are only better if your plan is to confuse the toss by mkaing him think hes safe with the obs, while it is really blind.
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goliath has 20 air attack, explosive type which means he deals 10 damage to obs. Obs has 60hp (shield included) so it takes 6 shots to take out the obs. That means toss can escape quite easy and w8 a few seconds till scan wears off. Of course thats in case u dont go mass goliats, but if u do ur basically in trouble coz vult/tank is the ideal combo for fightin toss on ground.
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afaik shields take full damage. so 5 shots?
blinding obs > killing it, because it wastes psi and distracts having to kill it.
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it is not the same to kill the obs at all
if you blind, protoss has to search all his obs for a working one (if enough ones are blind this can be very time-consuming)
and protoss might not notice his obs is blind and send units thinking theres no mines, possibly losing many units
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On October 30 2006 13:14 Sabbath wrote:
and protoss might not notice his obs is blind and send units thinking theres no mines, possibly losing many units
has happened in the reps i posted in the first post
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On October 30 2006 07:23 FrozenArbiter wrote:
Lol, I used to do this a bit while I still played terran.. Make a MILLION vultures and get every single observer with a bunch of medics ;D
When I did this I usually opened 2 fac vult + medic tho, and expoed if I couldn't do any damage.
lol awesome strat
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EPT
