Worker mining micro
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
On October 27 2006 16:15 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote: there is defenitely a slight advantage of having the closest mineral patch always mined, and the more you keep doing it the more it will show, but yeah... it's not really gonna give you a big edge, just a couple of seconds maybe tops. okay okay. It will give you 2 seconds of advantage. Make it count. | ||
Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12942 Posts
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haduken
Australia8267 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=42690 | ||
Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
I don't want to really argue about whether or not its effective/worth it I just want to see it in action. Maybe the picture I have in my head is different to what the guy was tlaking about in that VOD of Nal_Ra. Knickknack I've read that thread and the file in the original post but its not what I'm looking for T_T | ||
Ketama)Djin(
Germany2590 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On October 27 2006 16:28 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Even though personally I'd expect otherwise, I'll have to agree with hertzz. If it differed much, progamers would use it all the time. It's their duty to look over details like this to get an edge. Don't overestimate too much the progamers either... If you managed to control your peons perfectly you'd have a pretty good advantage especially in mirror mu with the same bos. I wouldn't be surprised to see the news pro playing like if it doesn't bother them but the old schools do it. It'd be more important for z especially because every 50 minerals gained you can directly have a drone. Therefore in the long run it's not negligeable. | ||
SchOOl_VicTIm
Greece2394 Posts
On October 27 2006 16:18 gg_hertzz wrote: okay okay. It will give you 2 seconds of advantage. Make it count. you must have never seen shit happen for 1 milsec then.. well, i have some. as I said it's not gonna give you big advantage or everything, but it DOES make some slight difference which u can choose to have or not. just don't expect to win you the game or anything of course... | ||
Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
It should be clear enough that microing the workers to closer patches gives you a slight advantage. Shorter distances means faster minerals. I don't think anyone would argue that Androide CC placement makes no difference at all, and it's the same thing--you have workers taking a longer distance to a mineral patch. But I doubt you could watch the mineral counter at the beginning of a game (and not watch the units on the screen) and tell whether or not a player began using the closest four mineral patches or not, Anyway, positional mining imbalances make more difference in the long run. Pros play on positionally imbalanced maps. Zergs used to all go extractor trick. Pros did that too, and now they don't really. These are just small issues in the game. | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=43722¤tpage=5#83 On September 09 2006 23:16 Manifesto7 wrote: I remember the first time I ever understood probe micro. I was with Teroru, and we had just smoked a huge amount of pot and beat the original bubble bobble. I had my laptop over and we watched a rA FPVOD. I couldn't believe what I was seeing at the beginning of the game, where he microed every probe to the closest possible mineral patch. It went on for ages, and was just ridiculous to watch. In my mind, he will always be the smartest player ever. On September 09 2006 23:16 Manifesto7 wrote: lol. No, I mean when he was mining, he would change the path of each probe so the closest one was ALWAYS being mined. Most people split their workers to the four closest mineral patches and just leave them to mine the same one. He was constantly changing their paths to optimize efficiency. If I could get a vod like this (or that one) then that would be cool I don't want to discuss whether its effective or not or worth it please...I just want to see this because I'm interested. | ||
TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
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ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
If this post makes no sense its because ive had some drinks. Maybe ill edit in the morning if i see it | ||
ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
On October 27 2006 16:49 SchOOl_VicTIm wrote: you must have never seen shit happen for 1 milsec then.. well, i have some. as I said it's not gonna give you big advantage or everything, but it DOES make some slight difference which u can choose to have or not. just don't expect to win you the game or anything of course... only in context does that happen. But in the opening minutes, when it's the only likely time that you would even try to micro your workers for that world shattering crucial 2 seconds, it doesn't amount to much. You can try it all you want, but anyone who credits their victory to the first 10 seconds in a normal game is a few rocks shy of national park. Or whatever the metaphor is. | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
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Alborz
Canada1551 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On October 27 2006 17:08 gg_hertzz wrote: guys, it's not that important. The majority of progamers do not do it, and more importantly, the majority of progamers who've won titles don't do it. Therefore, it doesn't matter. Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Please listen: I just want to see it in a vod or something, I don't care whether or not its effective. Thats not the aim of this thread, and if you want to discuss its effectiveness please make a new thread. | ||
zobz
Canada2175 Posts
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
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DruggedMarine
79 Posts
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skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On October 27 2006 17:56 Knickknack wrote: This seems to be something one could easily check up on by oneself (as far as doing the action of playing like this). Also the question is why would you want to see it if its not worth it. I'd suggest putting a R in the tag if your seeking something like this. Maybe post in broodwar section. Yeah its partly my fault. [R] is a good idea. | ||
racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
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micronesia
United States24345 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25940 Posts
On October 27 2006 17:08 gg_hertzz wrote: guys, it's not that important. The majority of progamers do not do it, and more importantly, the majority of progamers who've won titles don't do it. Therefore, it doesn't matter. If that was true, any of the multitude of innovations we've seen happen in Brood War would not matter. Sometimes things have to catch on. I agree; I don't think always sending workers to the closest patch really matters. I just don't agree with your logic against it. | ||
Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
If a worker is mining on an awkwardly positioned mineral i also try to relocate it after he returns his minerals. | ||
NonYold
United States2814 Posts
On October 27 2006 17:08 gg_hertzz wrote: guys, it's not that important. The majority of progamers do not do it, and more importantly, the majority of progamers who've won titles don't do it. Therefore, it doesn't matter. hahaha but seriously, let the tl.net strat forum retain some dignity | ||
tae
United States101 Posts
I had never seen/heard of this before, but if the macro master oov did it, I bet he has the ratio of cost effectiveness of workers mining different resources at different times with respect to what units he is producing down to an art. oov macro | ||
gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
On October 27 2006 19:31 Chill wrote: If that was true, any of the multitude of innovations we've seen happen in Brood War would not matter. Sometimes things have to catch on. I agree; I don't think always sending workers to the closest patch really matters. I just don't agree with your logic against it. mining the closest patch is an idea that has been around a long time. I remember entertaining that idea 3 years ago. I'm sure progamers have thought about it, but there is obviously a reason why 99.99% of them don't bother. | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
Why do these two minerals mine more slowly than the others? It's because the natural path the peon takes to it is slower than if it mined at a different angle to the mineral patch. Haven't you guys noticed that when a worker returns at a 45 degree angle it turns RIGHT back really fast without pausing? But when it comes back down vertically it pauses a little and then goes back? 30 degree returns are by FAR the slowest returning speed for a peon. The bottom left patch is naturally returned at a 30 degree and it is VERY slow. That is why all progamers build a supply depot or something to alter it to make sure it goes horizontally. If you guys didn't know, every unit it StarCraft moves in 16 directions. But some directions for peons return slower than others. Do be precise, anything 30 degrees away from a horizontal or vertical will be a slowed down return. Sometimes bad mineral patches will even have an SCV go one way and change directions and that slows down the return quite a bit, unless it's straight and then 45 degrees, that's good. There's different spots a mineral can be mined at, the bottom left corner, somewhere inbetween, a little closer to the next corner, the bottom right corner. Next time you play alone or are bored and are bored when observing a game, try mining the mineral patch at different spots and see the different speeds the peon will return at. | ||
superjoppe
Sweden3681 Posts
Can you somehow choose which one of them the peon will take? For example on rushhour, at 3clock, the second from highest mineralpatch, my probes always take the weirdest way there, taking much more time than the other patches. So can you actively choose somehow, for example by telling it to mine from somewhere else, making it taking another route to the minerals? | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On October 28 2006 01:52 jkillashark wrote: I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this. This is actually really important to a position like 10 on Luna where 2 of the mineral patches mine "slowly." Why do these two minerals mine more slowly than the others? It's because the natural path the peon takes to it is slower than if it mined at a different angle to the mineral patch. Haven't you guys noticed that when a worker returns at a 45 degree angle it turns RIGHT back really fast without pausing? But when it comes back down vertically it pauses a little and then goes back? 30 degree returns are by FAR the slowest returning speed for a peon. The bottom left patch is naturally returned at a 30 degree and it is VERY slow. That is why all progamers build a supply depot or something to alter it to make sure it goes horizontally. If you guys didn't know, every unit it StarCraft moves in 16 directions. But some directions for peons return slower than others. Do be precise, anything 30 degrees away from a horizontal or vertical will be a slowed down return. Sometimes bad mineral patches will even have an SCV go one way and change directions and that slows down the return quite a bit, unless it's straight and then 45 degrees, that's good. There's different spots a mineral can be mined at, the bottom left corner, somewhere inbetween, a little closer to the next corner, the bottom right corner. Next time you play alone or are bored and are bored when observing a game, try mining the mineral patch at different spots and see the different speeds the peon will return at. I thought it was common knowledge that the left 2 patches mined slower on Luna 11 oclock position. What I'm talking about when I refer to worker mining micro is not really this but actually keeping the 4 or so closest patches mined constantly which is taking worker micro a bit farther than just correcting the mining of "crappy" patches. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka26985 Posts
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amoxicilline
France1124 Posts
[url blocked] | ||
Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
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Cascade
Australia5405 Posts
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Mr_Pink
United States338 Posts
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On October 28 2006 02:52 superjoppe wrote: Nice information jkillashark! Can you somehow choose which one of them the peon will take? For example on rushhour, at 3clock, the second from highest mineralpatch, my probes always take the weirdest way there, taking much more time than the other patches. So can you actively choose somehow, for example by telling it to mine from somewhere else, making it taking another route to the minerals? Rarely, yes. I've tested the minerals on all of my maps and I've noticed that on some occasions, the positioning of the probe when it's mining actually impacts its path. Part of the reason it's so rare is that in most cases, the probes take the only one path back to the mineral even if they took two different paths from the mineral to the nexus. | ||
Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On October 28 2006 07:05 Mr_Pink wrote: Doesnt everyone mine in the closest patches? -.- I thought it was common sense. I've noticed many people who don't. It actually DOES make a noticeable difference if you send your first 4 workers to farther mineral patches. As in, you'll notice yourself sitting around pressing "build gateway" or whatever, waiting for those extra minerals to come in that you should already have. On October 27 2006 16:50 Myrmidon wrote: Nah, I'd think this is one of the places where the pros might not be right. Unit micro, macro, strategy, build orders, and maps are all much much more important than slight mining efficiency early in the game. But if you have nothing else to do in the early game, then why not spend it micromanaging your workers? At least you'll be doing something useful. Personally, I always try to get my probes mining from the fastest (not necessarily the closest!) mineral patches first. And sometimes, when I have 1 more probe than mineral patches, if I'm not doing anything else then I will micromanage 3 of them so that they never return to a patch that has a probe mining from it. It's actually very easy to rotate 3 probes on 2 somewhat-distant mineral patches. Sometimes a patch is so poorly-placed that you can actually have 2 probes mining from it without ever interferring with each other. One thing that surprises me is that ra was trying to maximize the use of his closest mineral patches, whereas whenever I micro probes I am always trying to get more efficiency out of the farthest mineral patches... | ||
uhjoo
Korea (South)1740 Posts
so alot of games you notice that his pool is (sometimes) noticeably faster than his opponents' pool when they use the same build it's pretty cool actually | ||
ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
On October 28 2006 09:24 Bill307 wrote: Rarely, yes. I've tested the minerals on all of my maps and I've noticed that on some occasions, the positioning of the probe when it's mining actually impacts its path. Part of the reason it's so rare is that in most cases, the probes take the only one path back to the mineral even if they took two different paths from the mineral to the nexus. Yes at 10:00 on luna you may "teach" the probes on the the far right mineral and the 2nd from left mineral so they will take a fast path every time. Unfortunately due to worker wandering once you get more probes than patches their positioning will be ruined | ||
nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
I feel like everytime some discreet bw tactic becomes common knowledge among all players it slowly kills broodwar because it removes what separates them from the best (in a way it also forces new tactics to be created to break-away from the pack, but remember there is only a limited amount of things we can do within the game). call me selfish but discoveries like this should be kept to yourself IMO | ||
superjoppe
Sweden3681 Posts
information wants to be free. it helps everyone improve and makes starcraft even better and more competive. the starcraft community wouldnt be what it is today if people hadnt shared all the strategies/tips/tricks. | ||
roadrunner_sc
United States1220 Posts
Information like this helps spread Brood war, not kill it. And you are selfish, thanks for letting us know. | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On October 28 2006 07:05 Mr_Pink wrote: Doesnt everyone mine in the closest patches? -.- I thought it was common sense. No you keep them constantly mined as much as you can, so you use mine commands to make sure the 4 closest are always being mined by a worker. On October 28 2006 03:17 Manifesto7 wrote: I will dig up the VOD if I can find it, it was a long time ago though. Thxthxthx!! | ||
Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On October 28 2006 12:02 nortydog wrote: bah! I hate when all these little tricks spill into the mainstream, they are something that only creative thinkers should enjoy the benefits of... even though most people wont take them seriously. I feel like everytime some discreet bw tactic becomes common knowledge among all players it slowly kills broodwar because it removes what separates them from the best (in a way it also forces new tactics to be created to break-away from the pack, but remember there is only a limited amount of things we can do within the game). call me selfish but discoveries like this should be kept to yourself IMO If everyone were like you, I'd still be a noob losing 3v3 BGHs on USEast. It is entirely because of some really cool people teaching me all about SC that I even discovered this scene. | ||
nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
I have no problem with sharing general strategic information and Im always helping people out in that area, but when stuff like this gets out it and everyone starts microing thier workers it will reduce the prestige/advantage gained when using such a trick and now everyone is on the same level again. | ||
nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
On October 28 2006 12:36 Aphelion02 wrote: I have brought many friends from BGH to being better than myself so please dont assumeIf everyone were like you, I'd still be a noob losing 3v3 BGHs on USEast. It is entirely because of some really cool people teaching me all about SC that I even discovered this scene. | ||
roadrunner_sc
United States1220 Posts
On October 28 2006 12:38 nortydog wrote: but dont you agree it is what will eventually destroy starcraft? No | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On October 28 2006 12:38 nortydog wrote: but dont you agree it is what will eventually destroy starcraft? when basically everything about the game becomes known, there will be not much entertainment value left in it to play or watch as there was in the past. I have no problem with sharing general strategic information and Im always helping people out in that area, but when stuff like this gets out it and everyone starts microing thier workers it will reduce the prestige/advantage gained when using such a trick and now everyone is on the same level again. Everyone's not gonna micro their workers.. You've already seen the general trend of responses in this thread. People are usually very skeptical towards anything that isn't in their "comfort zone" in terms of starcraft. Its not like the majority of people on Bnet even know about any sort of basic gameplay on low money maps anyway, and many others who play fastest would refuse to touch low money maps and hold desparately onto their belief that fastest is better. These people will always be left in the dark, so its not like everyone is gonna be on the same level -_- The people who are skeptical won't pick up these little things and so even among low money players the skill spectrum doesn't change much, there will always be better and worse players. On October 28 2006 03:37 amoxicilline wrote: like that ? [url blocked] Nah I watched it and all Canata is doing is making sure the scv goes to an empty spot. | ||
nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
and just to be clear Im not against people sharing ideas within a community or other "closed group" such as teamliquid because thats how people help each other but you dont go and tell your opponent all your secrets(this stuff does get out). also remember this is a competitive environment aswell and people sometimes like to know things others dont.. look at the progamers, they hang onto thier replays like gold because if everything about thier play was revealed(especially the small things) they could be copied and adapted to easily I guess im just feeling a bit sour that everyone is learning things over time that I held for myself and close friends without actually have to think for themself anymore.. | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32251 Posts
On October 28 2006 13:52 skyglow1 wrote: I doubt the level of competition between people such as your average TL.netter is very high, nothing compared to the competition at progamer level. If you are that competitive then I can understand your feelings. People have never really had to think for themselves for anything really. Nearly everything about bw can be accessed through sites. There are many other things that you can keep to yourselfs anyway too Smarter players will usually outplay any other player of the same skills but who only copies builds from other players. I like people knowing this tricks, because it makes me able to develop new "mind games" against my opponents and new strats to become viable (going lurker after 3 hatch in a good muta map after everyone started doing the OL-Muta trick, 2 base hive against fe terran on Luna/RH3). | ||
gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
On October 28 2006 12:02 nortydog wrote: bah! I hate when all these little tricks spill into the mainstream, they are something that only creative thinkers should enjoy the benefits of... even though most people wont take them seriously. I feel like everytime some discreet bw tactic becomes common knowledge among all players it slowly kills broodwar because it removes what separates them from the best (in a way it also forces new tactics to be created to break-away from the pack, but remember there is only a limited amount of things we can do within the game). call me selfish but discoveries like this should be kept to yourself IMO lol. come on man. don't tell me you've never thought of doing that before. micromanaging your minerals has been known for years. | ||
nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
because it makes me able to develop new "mind games" against my opponents and new strats to become viable (going lurker after 3 hatch in a good muta map after everyone started doing the OL-Muta trick, 2 base hive against fe terran on Luna/RH3). we think very similar in that way, like I play TvZ for fun and since 95% of terrans go FE everygame thesedays, I refuse to and play 1 base "old" style its really great going against the trend imogg_hertzz: I wasn't specifically referring to this topic just the leakage of knowledge into the bw mainstream | ||
CoralReefer
Canada2069 Posts
a good trick is to rally point to your minerals for your first 10 or 20 peons. just be careful, because if you aren't checking on them often, they might be able to blend in with the non-slacking workers for the really anal zerg players, you can also think about selecting the larvae closest to the minerals for your next drone ^_^ | ||
YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On October 28 2006 22:33 ml1710 wrote: for the really anal zerg players, you can also think about selecting the larvae closest to the minerals for your next drone ^_^ i actually do this =P. | ||
ZaplinG
United States3818 Posts
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Doctorasul
Romania1145 Posts
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stickman
136 Posts
On October 29 2006 06:06 Doctorasul wrote: This is all good, lovely discussion and all, but let's see an example of a progamer doing it. This thread needs a short clip of this being properly executed. Please. progamers rarely execute things perfectly and have historically had bad strategies. they are simply the best at winning games at the moment, but that doesnt imply that they are anywhere near doing things perfectly, either execution-wise or strategically. we should rather let someone do tests and post the results, so that we can individually judge the execution for what it is and we can see for ourselves the differing outcomes of different strategies. to say that we can watch a progamer do it and thus conclude that what we've seen is the best strategy and the perfect manifestation of that strategy is leading us in the wrong direction. | ||
skyglow1
New Zealand3962 Posts
On October 29 2006 06:06 Doctorasul wrote: This is all good, lovely discussion and all, but let's see an example of a progamer doing it. This thread needs a short clip of this being properly executed. Please. Yes that was the original point of this thread...I was asking to get the vod if someone had it, but other people started discussing it and it went off that way. | ||
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