Video series are of course not feasible for every content.
What I imagined is essentially a real-time Build Order Walkthrough for all matchups (the focus should be on an easy to follow and safe beginner-BO). Maybe with some sort of Getting Started video to explain some mechanics like binding which buildings to which keys, how to cope with not being able to use any building groups or army groups greater than eight (?) in Broodwar, on which maps to play (best balance, most opponents willing to play) and such things.
The actual video would be something like going over the build while executing it (maybe repeating the bascis of e.g. a wall-off for Terrans), commenting on the scout and the important things to look out for and subsequently showing the viewer how the matchup, the BO and everything (army composition, strategic choices, ...) play out.
For me this is a much more valuable insight than just reading theoretically about build orders and matchups. I think it also helps developing the right mindset, when you hear a stronger player explaining his steps/reactions. Especially concerning transitions (a huge problem for me in Starcraft 2 ^^).
On February 18 2014 22:50 GeckoXp wrote: Please try to compare the Protoss Portal to the Terran one. I do not want you to play Protoss, the reason I'd like feedback there is that it's the only thing that's somewhat finished. It's completely restructured. Instead of throwing a beginner into a wide ocean of information, it only gives a brief overview of the race and links to very, very abstract techniques, which work especially well for the race.
The Protoss Portal is indeed easier accessible for a beginner such as me. I really like the "Internal Ressources", they are well written, give a clear overview and are easy enough to understand. Especially the guides for each matchup with their information regarding army composition, scouting and strategy are very useful and I feel, quickly applicable, too.
The same goes basically for the Build Order pages. A very clear structure and you can easily find what you look for. Sadly the issue I have here as a beginner is still the same: Where to start?
As a beginner I would like to be pointed to a build, which does not rely heavily on scouting to work (because while scouting I will most likely mess up my macro or I focus on my base and get my scout killed) and is safe enough to not lose to your everyday rush. It would be huge, if it would also work on every map and if there would be similiar builds for the other matchups, so that I don't have to spend too much time memorizing/practicing all the different build orders before I can go on ladder (meaning, playing for real).
Maybe this is asking too much, I don't know. It's just that you can safely play a reaper expand into three rax (in total) pretty safe in every matchup in Starcraft 2 (lower leagues anyway) and I feel this is great to start out laddering. With some practice you end up in Gold league () without knowing :p
I would really like something similar in Broodwar, just to get going.
Hotkeys: Don't let people sell you some sort of keyboard layout some pro uses. Develop an own system. It's like in billard, you don't select a cue off the characteristics of a professional, but what suits you best. As long as you use one, you're fine. This is a typical thing BW "veterans" and know-it-alls will suggest you, along with how high your APM has to be. It's nonsense, it won't matter for 99% of the players.
What you suggest is already there, at least somewhere hidden. Sayle did some shows on Build Orders together with Kaspra, some Lithuanian beginner. Most people loved it, I thought it was a dangerous thing. I pointed out earlier, it's rather hard to actually go through with one Build Order in Brood War. As Zerg you can open vs. Terran with a two Hatch Muta Build, but that doesn't mean it ends there. Usually, you can pick an opening, follow it through for seven minutes and are then forced to adapt. Each opening has at least three different follow ups for "standard" play, some more against the various types of all-ins and exotic things you face every so often. It's a really, really versatile game.
The Kaspra show was good for beginners, when they wanted to get some overview, but also misleading up to a point. This is an unresolvable issue, since beginners always hope there'd be this one build, which helps them to win in any situation, or at least enables them to dodge a clear defeat. This is not possible, for no Build Order. Hence the advice "pick a Build Order and learn it". The goal is to just play it often and test out all possible mid game follow ups. As long as you train your opening and try to just freestyle once you reached the point where you're clueless, but follow the patterns written in the more general guides, you'll be somewhat fine. Brood War offers a lot of free styling, at least on the lower levels; after about 12 minutes it's more like rough timings you can do, but nothing you can easily phrase in words.
<!-- unrelated to the things above, check out Kaspra Show at YouTube and/or Hacklebeast's Behind The Curtain. In Behind the Curtain (few episodes) Hackle analyzes some games with very good players (e.g. Pro7ect). Also, the old Day[9] Dailies are often recommended, although I only know Ep. 100
(Kaspra)
(Behind the Curtain, sadly no playlist) -->
The next days I'll have a look at the Protoss portal again and see what I could do to link beginners to special openings (then again, which would that be? :[ ). Also, not sure if you noticed, but there's a (?) symbol on top of each Build Order Box in the new articles. This links to an article, which tells beginners how to read and understand a Build Order. It's basically the same I already told you, along with explanation of the basic notation (8/9 Pylon, @100% Lair - Spire, etc.).
Right from the top of my head, I could imagine we could make the (?) symbol more obvious in the template, e.g. add a line / cell somewhere with a written link: "how to read and judge Build Orders", so it's easier to find.
On February 19 2014 02:46 GeckoXp wrote: Hotkeys: Don't let people sell you some sort of keyboard layout some pro uses. Develop an own system.
My point was not really about selling the one-and-only keyboard layout but going over several issues mainly for players, who started with Starcraft 2 (building groups, army groups). Whoever would make such a video could also just go over the various methods and let the viewer pick the one he seems fit (taking hotkeys for the first three CCs and rax and then switching to camera hotkeys maybe). But overall I feel it's important to discuss this at least from an experienced standpoint.
On February 19 2014 02:46 GeckoXp wrote: This is an unresolvable issue, since beginners always hope there'd be this one build, which helps them to win in any situation, or at least enables them to dodge a clear defeat. This is not possible, for no Build Order.
No, I'm sorry, it seems I was unclear. I don't want the one BO to rule them all : D I want a starting point. Reaper expansion into three rax only carries you so far, too, but it's a good starting point because it involves some build order timing and requieres to constantly build workers and later marines. It requieres decent macro without being too hard to execute (in my opinion). And with some minor changes you can start with it in every matchup - at least on lower levels.
That's what I'm looking for in Broodwar. But just picking one randomly seems horribly inefficient because I don't know enough about the gameplay or the matchups in Broodwar and reading all the different BOs and how they transition, when and where they are good and so on takes a really long time just reading about a game, which I actually wanted to play ^^
(Mainly Terran considerations incoming) Can I aim for a fast expansion in every matchup while staying decently safe? (I already experienced that walling-off is harder than in Starcraft 2) Can I always build my expansion in my main base to be safe or does flying it over cost too much time (for low levels)? Since mining is faster in Broodwar compared to Starcraft 2, isn't it? Can I always build a bunker in front of my natural (on lower levels) to be safe or is it also too cost inefficient since I can't salvage it (compared to Starcraft 2)? The same question applies to the amount of marines, I should make. In the BOs is often mentioned I should check how my opponent plays but as a beginner I'm not good in scouting and I also don't know the expansion timings for the different races. Can I play 2 Rax Tech with a third rax after the e-bay in TvZ, despite the Zerg going three hatch? (Knowing that it might not be optimal but also knowing that an opponent on my level will most likely does not execute it properly, resulting in a build order win) I also read quite often "weak/strong on this or that map", so I would like a BO, which is suitable for almost every map or I need to know which are the most played maps at least (although Fighting Spirit seems to have been a good guess).
All this combined with a somewhat similarity in the BOs brought me to chosing 1 Rax FE into 2(3) Rax Tech (vZ), Siege Expand (vP) and 1 Factory FE (vT). But that took a couple of days to read through all the info and drawing conclusions mainly from playing Starcraft 2 and until then I didn't play one single game.
I would have liked a guide (best such a Build Order Walkthrough) from a stronger player just saying, we're doing this now and this is how it'll pan out. One place for all (most of) the relevant information. It's way more efficient because I save time and know at the same time that this strategy/BO works because it is shown to me directly.
Of course later you will have to evolve as a player but telling the beginner from the start that you'll have to know three follow-ups for each build order is overburding, I think - it's not beginner-level anymore then. You have to break it down to start somewhere and being accompanied by a stronger player helps in knowing you are on the right path.
On February 19 2014 02:46 GeckoXp wrote:Also, not sure if you noticed, but there's a (?) symbol on top of each Build Order Box in the new articles. This links to an article, which tells beginners how to read and understand a Build Order. It's basically the same I already told you, along with explanation of the basic notation (8/9 Pylon, @100% Lair - Spire, etc.).
I didn't notice ^^ It's a good explanation! I would also make it easier to find, though, because for someone who hasn't played a single game of Starcraft this is indeed much needed information.
Most of these will hopefully explained if / when somebody re-writes/re-structures the Terran section. This goes for a lot of questions, like "can I always Fast Expand?". In my opinion (regardless of race), Fast Expanding is always an option, in most cases even the standard way to play the game. However, that's where the anon-ladder players come in; the second somebody 5 Pools, you can't.
The trade off we have to do when adding Build Orders (mind you Build Orders, nothing else), is to add as much information as needed, not more, not less. There's not way to write every possible outcome. If we add too much, it's too confusing, if we leave out important things, it's not helpful either.
I do see the point you have a hard time to pick what you should be doing, or where to go first. The question I'm asking myself now whether or not this can be realized on Liquipedia, and if it can, where to put it. Most of your questions depend on the race you play (Terran in your case), so it should be somewhere in the race strategy articles.
Would it help if we added a line/box on top of each race overview page (e.g. Protoss Portal), which reads something like:
Articles with the -smiley are important for beginners!, see also: Category: Protoss Beginner Articles?
And on some other pages (e.g. Build Overview), you'd see like
Ultimate Terran Guide
How to win with Zerglings
Controlling Corsair/Reaver
In these, there'd be a sum-up of the most important techniques (including articles like Scouting_vs_Zerg_(Terran) , or Wall-in_(Terran) ), two Builds per match up which are considered 'standard' and stuff like this. It's just an idea though. I could really do with more people trying to actively help code/content wise on the Wiki.
On February 19 2014 06:43 GeckoXp wrote: Would it help if we added a line/box on top of each race overview page (e.g. Protoss Portal), which reads something like:
Articles with the -smiley are important for beginners!, see also: Category: Protoss Beginner Articles?
And on some other pages (e.g. Build Overview), you'd see like
Ultimate Terran Guide
How to win with Zerglings
Controlling Corsair/Reaver
In these, there'd be a sum-up of the most important techniques (including articles like Scouting_vs_Zerg_(Terran) , or Wall-in_(Terran) ), two Builds per match up which are considered 'standard' and stuff like this. It's just an idea though. I could really do with more people trying to actively help code/content wise on the Wiki.
I think these are great ideas! Everything that cuts down the time needed to play an "informed" first game of Broodwar is a step in the right direction, I guess : )
Just wanted to bump this. I'm currently searching people to help to tag articles in the Terran/Zerg section. I worked over the Build Order Table and added symbols / a few sentences on the Protoss Portal though.
The PVP page has a PVP picture named PVZ Build Orders. It is very confusing.
Copy & Paste error, my bad. Thanks for fixing this, the ridiculously stupid 2on2 bullshit Shade posted and the add-ons to the Goon article. Refreshing to see good contributions by a first time editor. Really appreciated!
On July 31 2014 22:44 13Julia wrote: The point of writing anything when somone with d level knowledge of the game will come and change it.
Well, usually I'd reply that if you were to edit the page, I'd watch out that nobody else would vandalize it. This already is the thing I try to do for stuff Cryoc edited. But, it's you. I can't possibly take you seriously, sorry.
On August 01 2014 00:23 13Julia wrote: How can you get high level players to write if you don't take them seriously?
Cryoc, vOddy, Bakuryu and DraW helped out re-designing and reviewing some older and newer content already. Saying we'd (I) ignore their input and feedback is just wrong. All of those four however did contribute, while all you did in the past was whining about Protoss in general, bitching about your opponents and about lag. If you want to be taken seriously you should think about changing the way you present yourself. If you continue like that you shouldn't complain about being the clown of the scene. A simple case of quid pro quo.
That is great that you share your deep thoughts, let me share mine too, I consider you a lame and uneffective admin. But is that fact interfering with us talking? Nope. Do I write shit like you? Nope, I expect the same, else you want to see my personal views on you too...
Julia, I don't understand why you are posting in this thread. This obviously has nothing to do with you and you do not have anything positive to contribute. Stop criticizing hard work done by other people. We haven't seen you contribute anything.
EPT
) without knowing :p
-smiley are important for beginners!, see also: Category: Protoss Beginner Articles? 
Protoss Strategy![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lLorkff.jpg)
