EPThttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/User:GeckoXp/PVZBuilds
Please share your thoughts, criticism, etc, pp.
This is hopefully a lot better than the old category.
Project: Strat Update - Page 2
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/User:GeckoXp/PVZBuilds Please share your thoughts, criticism, etc, pp. This is hopefully a lot better than the old category. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you do it correctly it should be 11 - Assimilator | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 15 2014 06:37 traceurling wrote: Also I noticed in a lot of Protoss openings of 1 gate core, the BO says 12 - Assimilator. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you do it correctly it should be 11 - Assimilator Ah, pardon me for asking, but do you have a source that says specifically 11 assimilator, because I know you can do 11 gas in TvP/TvT, but I've never heard anyone say 11 gas in any Protoss match-up. | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
On January 15 2014 07:15 ninazerg wrote: Ah, pardon me for asking, but do you have a source that says specifically 11 assimilator, because I know you can do 11 gas in TvP/TvT, but I've never heard anyone say 11 gas in any Protoss match-up. Well the timing works out perfectly for me, when I open 1 Gate Core I go 8 - Pylon 10 - Gate 11 - Assimilator And you don't have to cut probes I also seem to remember reading/hearing it somewhere in addition to personal experience | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 15 2014 12:33 traceurling wrote: Well the timing works out perfectly for me, when I open 1 Gate Core I go 8 - Pylon 10 - Gate 11 - Assimilator And you don't have to cut probes I also seem to remember reading/hearing it somewhere in addition to personal experience I wasn't asking for your build order, I meant besides your specific experience, what other sources do you have of pro-games with 11 gas or specific advice from a top foreigner/semi-pro/pro gamer that would advocate a particular change in game play? | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
On January 15 2014 13:10 ninazerg wrote: I wasn't asking for your build order, I meant besides your specific experience, what other sources do you have of pro-games with 11 gas or specific advice from a top foreigner/semi-pro/pro gamer that would advocate a particular change in game play? Because it doesn't slow down your probe production or mining at all, and allows you to get gas a couple seconds faster. If someone has a reason to build Assimilator at 12 please tell me so I can fix my build. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On January 15 2014 13:29 traceurling wrote: Because it doesn't slow down your probe production or mining at all, and allows you to get gas a couple seconds faster. If someone has a reason to build Assimilator at 12 please tell me so I can fix my build. Nobody said "fix your build". As Probetoss, you will be using all minerals until your cybernetics core finishes, so it would make more sense to not rush for gas. If you have good results with 11 gas, great. I'm not saying to change anything, but I wouldn't change all the strategy guide build orders because one person prefers to go 11 gas. | ||
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traceurling
United States1240 Posts
On January 15 2014 15:43 ninazerg wrote: Nobody said "fix your build". As Probetoss, you will be using all minerals until your cybernetics core finishes, so it would make more sense to not rush for gas. If you have good results with 11 gas, great. I'm not saying to change anything, but I wouldn't change all the strategy guide build orders because one person prefers to go 11 gas. Hm...I guess Ill try 12 assimilator for a few games and see how it compares | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
In terms of m.u this would apply to PvT and PvP where you open goon (if you pvp and do zealot first, you might as well 12 or 13 assimilator) | ||
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Reuental
United States457 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Good zerg economic strategy can by achieved by doing the following steps 1. How many units do I want to constantly make? 2. Make drones until you can produce that constant stream of units while making the minimum amount of stuff to survive 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 in reaction to the state of the game While this is abstract, anything else is not accurate. A concrete example... 1. I want to make hydras constantly off 5 hatches 2. Make the 34 required workers to do this while making the minimum number of lings and sunkens to defend any aggression The second step is one of the most important and hardest things for Zerg. This is because of the 'while making the minimum amount of stuff to survive', there are two possibilities where this can go wrong. The first is that the opposing player cripples you through harassment or you lose all your buildings. The second is that you make too much defense causing you to behind economically compared to your opponent. A very common situation where the former occurs is in 3 hatch muta vs T. The zerg must make a certain number of sunkens before mutas get out, and if you make to many your 3rd hatch or you can't make 9 mutas once your spire is finished. Even at the professional level, it is not unsurprising to see the zerg get broken and instantly lose the game because of them striving to achieve the the perfect equilibrium between too much and too little. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On February 05 2014 12:27 Reuental wrote: I am attempting to actually make a decent zerg economic management page. Does anyone disagree with the following idea I would like to know, because all the other sections in the guide are built off this. I am working on the specific wording for the steps, but I believe they are sound. + Show Spoiler + Good zerg economic strategy can by achieved by doing the following steps 1. How many units do I want to constantly make? 2. Make drones until you can produce that constant stream of units while making the minimum amount of stuff to survive 3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 in reaction to the state of the game While this is abstract, anything else is not accurate. A concrete example... 1. I want to make hydras constantly off 5 hatches 2. Make the 34 required workers to do this while making the minimum number of lings and sunkens to defend any aggression The second step is one of the most important and hardest things for Zerg. This is because of the 'while making the minimum amount of stuff to survive', there are two possibilities where this can go wrong. The first is that the opposing player cripples you through harassment or you lose all your buildings. The second is that you make too much defense causing you to behind economically compared to your opponent. A very common situation where the former occurs is in 3 hatch muta vs T. The zerg must make a certain number of sunkens before mutas get out, and if you make to many your 3rd hatch or you can't make 9 mutas once your spire is finished. Even at the professional level, it is not unsurprising to see the zerg get broken and instantly lose the game because of them striving to achieve the the perfect equilibrium between too much and too little. Hello, Great that someone tries to contribute, I really do appreciate the effort you already put in. I saw you already tried to transform your post and put it onto Liquipedia. There's ton of "broken" Code you used, which is rather easy to fix. You might want to have a look at  Help:Strategy, some of the conventions and helpful styles are explained there. At Help:Formatting you'll find more basic advices (creating bullet point lists, ordered lists, headers, ...)Now for you general idea - the content and the explanation of Zerg economy. There's a reason why I avoid working on these pages, I have no idea about it myself. Well, I do know a few rules of thumb and stuff like this, but I'm nowhere near having enough knowledge to add information. You should be aware that you picked on of the most complicated things to explain in the entire game. A few months ago Bakuryu pointed out, that some Liquipedia advices are somewhat useless or badly written. You can see a TL;DR and a temporary solution here: Zerg Economic ManagementNow, please don't take this personal, but your guide reads a little confusing and way too abstract. For starters, you tell people to build "enough Drones to power"; this advice can be given for any race in any situation a player might want to cut workers. I'm not sure how a beginner views this. It's quite... too abstract and therefore too general. You might try to outline the idea you have a bit better and maybe discuss it with other good Zerg players. Bakuryu comes to mind, he's always very helpful when you need feedback. | ||
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Reuental
United States457 Posts
The guide on my page is currently revision 1.0, and the wording for many things is fucking horrible. I was expecting no one to read it when I created my user page on liquipedia, but just wanted to put it somewhere so whenever I get to a computer I could spend a little time on it. I am actually really embarrassed that you read it haha(if its wrong to put not close to completed pages on there please let me know and I will remove it). The problem I am facing is that I wish to present no inaccurate information because of the gigantic amount of useless zerg info, so I am being very very careful with my word choice. This is indeed one of the most complicated subjects in starcraft, and I know that I will never approach the skill level to have a true understanding of it. But there is so little help and information for new zerg players, I know I can provide at least a few simple and correct starting points for zergs who have to tackle with this nigh impossible to understand concept. When I do enough for it to warrant a revision number change, I will edit this post or something like that. Until then I will be doing things like adding pictures of zergs walls to many popular maps, already have the screenshots for circuit breaker, just have to upload them. | ||
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Chaplin
42 Posts
I will answer the questions in the OP but first just a few general remarks: I have a little bit experience (that's not being humble, that's really just "a little") with Starcraft 2 and reading guides over there and the main obstacle I face with getting into BW is too much information for the beginning. I find it really hard to see starting points because every guide or page on Liquipedia combines or requieres too much at once for someone who simply does not have any clue. In my opinion this has to be broken down to something like FilterSC did it with his Bronze to Masters, Improving Mechanics Guide or Apollo did with his videos (e.g. Starcraft II Heart of the Swarm - Terran Tutorial - Part1. The second point is kind of connected to the last one and most likely is just a personal preference but nevertheless: Most of the information, especially in guides on this forum, is too text-driven. There are huge walls of text but no videos or illustrating screenshots to make the information easier accessible. Mechanics of StarCraft for example, I think this thread's OP is really good but just scrolling through is taxing. I know especially the second point sounds really bad, because if you don't want to put work in, how can you expect to get results, right? Well since there is a lot of work ahead even if you read through all the text, I guess the time a beginner needs to spend before his first match should be kept as short as possible. And walls of text just aren't sexy to begin with. To sum up the general remarks: In my opinion SC:BW needs some easy-going step by step tutorial for beginners. Text is fine but it should only be accompanying a video where someone talks about the neccessary steps, the why and how, maybe setting up benchmarks (though I guess you can't easily check them in BW?) and so on. I really liked Mechanics Video Series in this regard but of course it is too specific for a beginner. Did you find help easily? Generally, yes! If you find the BW Strategy Forum, you can easily find the Collection of Strategy Threads by Chef out of the six active(?) threads there ; ) This thread is huge and really useful, answering every question I eventually might have come up with. What I missed in the Collection of Strategy Threads was a direct link to Liquipedia but since I'm used to TL.net I found it easily enough. Was there misleading advice? I can't tell because I don't know enough. Did you find the resources in time? Generally, yes but not always what I wanted to have : D (see below) What could be done better? The problem I had after browsing through the first couple of guides in the forum is something I mentioned above (general remarks), too much information in the first place and not selective enough so that a beginner has no clue what the important points are and where to put his focus. I quickly found my way through the main page of Liquipedia, first clicking on Beginner and then on Terran Strategy because I knew I wanted to play Terran. But the same problems continued, too much information and a lot of links to more specific information. Don't get me wrong, the information is surely important to know and you can learn a lot by reading through it but it does not get you playing. What I really want is a section like "Getting to play Broodwar!". In Starcraft 2, the first advice I got was, if you build more stuff than your opponent, you generally win. So the focus was on building stuff. In the Broodwar-forums I often read about sticking to a build order, so I guess it's also building stuff what's important in the first place. Why not start with this? Fine-tunning can come later. Having said that, the beginner's build order should put an emphasis on safety (e.g. walling off) and on similarity through all three match-ups. Again the goal is not to play a perfect tournament BO but to play at all and be decently successful against players on the lowest ranks. I chose 1 Rax FE vs Z, 1 Fact FE vs T and 1 Fact FE (Siege) vs P and always placed my CC on the high ground. The BO against T and P is very similiar, that cuts the workload, and I deliberately ignored putting SCV on and off gas. Vs Z is a prime example to put off a beginner. The Liquipedia page has a three step build order and then goes over to clarifications, adaptions and transitions. Worst of all, nothing makes sense to me. How do I scout a 12 Hatch? A 4/5/9 pool? How do I recognize a three Hatch or two Hatch play? I again chose to ignore this all for the time being because it does not bring me any closer to actual playing and went with the 2 Rax Tech with a third barracks after the e-bay as the follow-up. I found this one the easiest to follow when coming from Starcraft 2. So now I am here and the journey took on and off a couple of days just to figure out with what to start playing. And this is just the beginning actually. I play on ICCup (against the computer) and don't know which maps are popular (there are so many!), so I'm a bit inefficient when playing on random maps. In the end I chose Fighting Spirit because I heard it somewhere and so I spent the first two games searching the ramp with my SCV (getting majorly supply blocked) to wall-off (which of course does not work most of the time ^^) because the mini-map is all black. Presumably this will be the same on all maps, so even worse that I don't know the popular maps. So, yeah! =D A couple of days browsing though guides and info to start playing and then experiencing that the jouney is still just about to start, is a bit off-putting. I feel this could be made simpler through beginner-tailored guides (again just to get people playing, not to get them into SSL). Was the information too basic or too specific? Definitely not specific enough for beginners : D | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9510 Posts
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On February 18 2014 21:56 Chaplin wrote: Hey, here is a "I'm a (total BW) beginner" contribution : D [...] First off, huge thanks for actually answering, this helps more than you might think and more than my response is going to suggest, so keep that in mind! Most of what you said refers to guides in this forum. This topic focusses only on Liquipedia Brood War, on nothing else. Hence, most if it would be good for Chef's thread. Since you mentioned one of my tutorials (Mechanics), I'll keep that in mind if I'm going to write one again (unlikely, I'm not really active anymore). Personally, it feels a little odd to me, I was used to not have the option to use anything but text when I started out: Back then there were no replays, just to give you a random example. I also do loathe Video Guides like hell, because I have to watch all of them and it feels like a lot of wasted time, I read a lot faster than I watch. Then again, I'll definitely keep the idea to add pictures in mind. Related to your other suggestions answering Liquipedia issues - only the Protoss Portal and the Beginner section is somewhat finished. I started the project to adress most of the issues you already mentioned. The Beginner section was written in a way to answer tons of FAQ things and very basic concepts, e.g. why the keyboard is important and how to set up hotkeys. This is drastically different in BW than in any modern RTS Games. Anyhow, that's besides the point. Back when "we" (2pac, Pholon, me, Epoxide, Nina, others) worked over and over, we tried to not get into detail. And here's why: You mentioned that there are general guides and advices working for SCII. I have no idea, I played the WoL Beta, a few weeks on and off after the Beta, achieved some almost-Master ranking and then let it go. I was under the impression that SCII is a lot more, I don't know how to express it, unified? Identical? The workers for each race, the worker-to-army relation seems to be, on a more abstract level, equal for all three races. There are more things which matter here, for example the high ground advantage in BW, more static units like Lurkers and Siege Tanks, also the pathfinding. The games are entirely different. Now add to the equation that SCII is still being developed strategy wise, but BW underwent a decade of strategy shifts. The result are tons of strategies which soft counter each other; a strategy in BW doesn't mean that you open with Strategy A and end with Strategy A. It can very well be that you open with Strategy A, react softly, so it turns into Strategy A_1, transition into mid game Strategy B, which now is B_3, because you usually wouldn't go there but have to, only to end up in the late game with Strategy C_6. There's nothing set in stone. It's rather difficult for a regular to see the game from a beginner's perspective - that's why it's so cool you answered. Other examples which might be easier to understand is one of the more general advices we throw at beginners: "Build Workers all the time"; this is a lot like "Build more stuff than your opponent", at least it serves the same goal and is most likely mentioned in the same breath. This does work for all Terran and Protoss Match Ups, if a Zerg player follows the advice though, he'll end up dead very soon. Zerg does skip worker all the time, their economy works drastically different from the others. Hence - in the beginner section we operated with the assumption a beginner does not really know which race he plays, at least not already. Only abstract concepts, the ones you can easily understand. I think it reads a lot better than my Mechanics guide by now, after other experienced writers read over it. And here's another problem, the Liquipedia was written by at least decent players for above causal level players. A lot of information was left out, it wasn't meant to learn, rather than to archive strategies. The "learning effect" was reserved for those kind of players who only needed raw information and could process it without help. I realized that when I worked over the Protoss portal. The information wasn't re-written in four years, only now it slowly starts to change. Hopefully at least. Please try to compare the Protoss Portal to the Terran one. I do not want you to play Protoss, the reason I'd like feedback there is that it's the only thing that's somewhat finished. It's completely restructured. Instead of throwing a beginner into a wide ocean of information, it only gives a brief overview of the race and links to very, very abstract techniques, which work especially well for the race. From there on out a beginner should be able to click himself through the other parts. Ideally, he'd start reading the match up guides, gets an idea what role his race plays in each match up, what he can use to scout, but not what to look out for (because this depends on the build he is using and ideally this is explained in each build!). From the match up guides he can now navigate to actual Build Orders. Each Match Up has a new overview page which lists all existing builds, categorizes them into the schemes old/new <-> rush/macro <-> standard/exotic, or related categories. So the idea is that a good player can go directly to a specific build order and can only read the text, watch a few example and that's it. A beginner on the other hand can go from "overview general" to "overview match up/guide" to "overview match up/build list" to "build order". I really don't know if that worked or not, but that's what I had in mind. If that works better, I really do hope some better Zerg and Terran players will take matter into their hands and start on re-doing these pages. I have limited knowledge about these two races and would prefer it to not edit much there. I mean I could rephrase tons of their builds and most likely not mess them up, but I also might not be able to highlight the important parts. Understanding and re-writing them are sadly two different things, especially if you yourself are only an average player. | ||
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