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Ah, okay. So we're adding 3 Probes to the Zealot rush? Alright then, I'll admit Zealots + Probes = Zealots with the +1 Weapons upgrade, so Lings really will be at a disadvantage. The Sunken Colony is a good idea in this case.
If the Protoss player does wall at the back of the mineral line, you'll have to trick Drones through the mineral line to stop him or her from placing Cannons. If your scouting is good, you'll have some time to do this.
If you like the opening variation of getting your Hatchery 5 seconds sooner than in the Overpool, then that's good for you. I think everyone should have his or her own particular style. But I wouldn't go so far as to call pool11 a common opening. In the FPVODs I posted of sAviOr, he always opens with 12 Hatch or Overpool. I only wanted to present opening build orders that were prerequisite to understanding his 4 Base, 8 Hatchery Hydra build. I didn't want to be comprehensive and include builds like 4 Pool, 6 Pool, etc. since that would not only overwhelm beginners, but it would also detract attention from the main focus of the guide.
"You can pool11 and still be a progamer trust me."
I believe you. I just hope you don't do pool11 most games because you are paranoid of the 9,9 gate build. =P
And yes, sAviOr doesn't scout the main right away with his Overlord because he wants to make sure no zeze leaves the Protoss natural without his knowing. That's the point I wanted to make! 
You are right. I haven't practiced on the Fish server with Zerg, but I have observed quite a few games. You seem pretty knowledgeable about the ZvP matchup, so I would appreciate it if you could have a look at the material I've written in the guide. With your experience you might notice a technique of sAviOr's that I overlooked. If you think something should be added, then please let me know.
Cheers to you, Sir Pauline~
On August 26 2013 15:59 pebble444 wrote:
Olympic class layout. Very nice thread!!
Haha, I'm glad you liked the layout. It was the best way I could think of to organize the material. Thank you, Mr. Pebble, good sir
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indeed it is not a standard opening at all, i wonder even why it is not used more because it is really easier to defend, sAviOr has a strong mind game and really knows how to defend pretty much anything without really scouting, he opens hatch 12 sometimes but i saw him losing a lot because of one gate opening and canon rush so i think he just does it gambling that protoss would just go forge. what I find awesome in his gameplay is his defense and how he pushes hydra with deadly timing. I saw him owning shuttle 3/0 easy peazy just with timing push 3 times in a row, too bad he doesn't train anymore because he has one of the best z v p so far, I usually copy him for his muta gameplay vs protoss, it is so cool but you can easily lose vs weaker opponent if not executed properly.
I don't like to be harassed or vulnerable early in the game because I am not so good at defending and i really like those 6 zerglings popping at the same time with my pool11 which i use to snipe probe on ramp and scout map at the same time.
I do pool11 most of the time because it maximizes your eco while being able to defend pretty much anything, you can also put your natural in peace by sending your 10th drone scouting, if you see his probe coming at the same time you can hide 11th drone and put your natural without being bothered, this also means that protoss is cross position and if you don't see his probe then protoss is cross position from where you sent your overlord, if his probe is a little bit off timing (meaning that when your 6 zerglings come out you still don't see his probe) it means that something weird is going on, like double gate or early gas and in this case instead of making drone you make 8th ling, this probe timing is the most important thing to anticipate cheese and i learnt it with pool11, also when you send your 10th drone scouting you send it middle of the map and when you scout middle it is EXACTLY when you have 300 to put your natural, so if you see 9gate middle you can just put your second hatch in your main, this avoid cancelling and losing mineral. Basically without even scouting protoss base you can know what he is doing, but yea double gate is a big deal for me, and i see no reason risking to lose a game because i didn't do a proper bo, in an old reppack you see sziky opening 9pool ALWAYS on fish, so there is a reason to that and it's fish 9gate protoss loser
So why pool11?
* because of the natural popping out earlier making it easier to defend 9gate + probe
* because of the 10th drone scouting timing that will see probe coming to your natural and therefore let you the time to hide your drone and dodge him to put your natural in peace, plus the knowledge of knowing that protoss is cross position.
* because of a better eco
* because of knowing if protoss went double gate or gas first without scouting his base.
I believe you can find a way to know timing with overpool, but one thing is sure, is that when you send 10th drone to scout with overpool, it is too late to hide drone because the probe is already at your ramp if protoss is cross position and went fast expand. So basically he has 2 chances out of 3 to find you before you put your natural, but with pool11 he has one chance out of 3 to bother you while putting your natural because of the dodge drone tech.
Maybe it sounds confusing, but it really is perfect when you play it. lol
This drone hiding i got it watching savior btw, and funny thing he did pool11, so i tried it and discovered this awesome opening when i see pro being bothered by probe to put natural, honestly i find it noob because it could have been avoided so easily with a pool11.
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For overpool vs 11pool, how does gas timing compare? And when you go 11pool, how do you deal with annoying probe blocking natural hatchery - is it like 12hatch where you pull 2 drones to fight/chase away probe or make it at third or offplace hatch?
Sorry to continue derailing your thread shalashaska. I realize this is savior analysis more than a general zvp guide but now I am curious heh.
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On August 29 2013 07:28 PUPATREE wrote:
For overpool vs 11pool, how does gas timing compare? And when you go 11pool, how do you deal with annoying probe blocking natural hatchery - is it like 12hatch where you pull 2 drones to fight/chase away probe or make it at third or offplace hatch?
Sorry to continue derailing your thread shalashaska. I realize this is savior analysis more than a general zvp guide but now I am curious heh.
Hahaha, it's no problem, Pupa. I actually want some more insight and discussion about this pool11 build order. It would really help if we could see a progamer using it in a VOD or something like that. According to iFU.pauline, pool11 is a winner build for the reasons he said in his last post. There are some things that concern me, though. One is the gas timing like you said; that is, how does the Spire timing compare to those in the Overpool and 12 Hatch builds? Another thing I'm skeptical about is whether the Hatchery really comes up before Zealots from a 9,9 gate get to your natural--I mean, the Zealot/Probe attack comes quite quickly. Another thing that bothers me is that the Lings come out 5-10 seconds later than in Overpool. What if the Protoss player goes for a greedy 13 Nexus? In Overpool, you can barely get the Lings to his natural in time before the Cannons come up (obviously, this depends on how big the map is and the spawning locations). 5-10 seconds may not seem like much, but it makes the difference between whether you can attempt a run-by or not. And even in general, having your Lings out sooner rather than later is a good thing if you don't know what the opponent is up to.
I also think there has to be something amiss with this build; I don't recall seeing any progamer using it in a ZvP match. If progamers would rather go for the Overpool and 12 Hatch builds and risk getting harassed by the scouting Probe instead of going for pool11 (which iFU.pauline claims gives you a harassment-free Hatchery and better economy than Overpool), then there has to be something wrong with it.
Edit:
in an old reppack you see sziky opening 9pool ALWAYS on fish, so there is a reason to that and it's fish 9gate protoss loser
Sziky is good enough with his Lings to defend against a 9,9 gate build even if he opens 12 Hatch. You give Szikylings too little credit. =P
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wow! wow! wow! nice one! love and respect savior's skills in bw! my favorite bw player!
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On August 29 2013 12:00 Shalashaska_123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 07:28 PUPATREE wrote:
For overpool vs 11pool, how does gas timing compare? And when you go 11pool, how do you deal with annoying probe blocking natural hatchery - is it like 12hatch where you pull 2 drones to fight/chase away probe or make it at third or offplace hatch?
Sorry to continue derailing your thread shalashaska. I realize this is savior analysis more than a general zvp guide but now I am curious heh. Hahaha, it's no problem, Pupa. I actually want some more insight and discussion about this pool11 build order. It would really help if we could see a progamer using it in a VOD or something like that. According to iFU.pauline, pool11 is a winner build for the reasons he said in his last post. There are some things that concern me, though. One is the gas timing like you said; that is, how does the Spire timing compare to those in the Overpool and 12 Hatch builds? Another thing I'm skeptical about is whether the Hatchery really comes up before Zealots from a 9,9 gate get to your natural--I mean, the Zealot/Probe attack comes quite quickly. Another thing that bothers me is that the Lings come out 5-10 seconds later than in Overpool. What if the Protoss player goes for a greedy 13 Nexus? In Overpool, you can barely get the Lings to his natural in time before the Cannons come up (obviously, this depends on how big the map is and the spawning locations). 5-10 seconds may not seem like much, but it makes the difference between whether you can attempt a run-by or not. And even in general, having your Lings out sooner rather than later is a good thing if you don't know what the opponent is up to. I also think there has to be something amiss with this build; I don't recall seeing any progamer using it in a ZvP match. If progamers would rather go for the Overpool and 12 Hatch builds and risk getting harassed by the scouting Probe instead of going for pool11 (which iFU.pauline claims gives you a harassment-free Hatchery and better economy than Overpool), then there has to be something wrong with it. Edit: Show nested quote +in an old reppack you see sziky opening 9pool ALWAYS on fish, so there is a reason to that and it's fish 9gate protoss loser Sziky is good enough with his Lings to defend against a 9,9 gate build even if he opens 12 Hatch. You give Szikylings too little credit. =P
You are not being delayed with pool11 regarding gas, i don't see why you would be delayed in fact you take gas at 14 same as overpool, it is not because u put ur pool earlier that you have 14thdrone earlier, again you didn't try it while playing, also just to give you a little insight, pool11 was executed for a very long time by progamer, before fast expand was "invented" protoss would open double gate all the time, zerg players at this time were opening pool11 and not overpool. There was a reason for it try to make a guess. Pupatree you are not being annoyed putting your natural because of the drone scouting probe coming to your base that gives you time to hide your 11th drone, i explained it clearly in my previous post. I just suggest you try it.
The reason they go overpool is because most of the time pro assume protoss would go fast expand, but i can assure you that if most of the time protoss would go double gate, you will almost never see hatch12.
I am not underestimating sziky zergling micro, but if his opening was always pool9 in his 300 games reppack on fish, please make a guess.
I don't understand why you are so skeptical because you weren't playing at the time everybody was doing it. Anyway I think I gave out my little knowledge, unless ppl are willing to try it out the way i explained it i don;t expect them to acknowledge because they can always come up with, why jaedong doesn't do it, On top of that I did clearly say that I got this opening watching sAviOr, and that's why I did post in this thread. hehe I don't think it is having a good critical thinking assuming pool11 must be broken because it is not executed by pro. I play pool11 assuming protoss would double gate, pro play overpool assuming they would fast expand. That's why you don't see it often.
Progamers don't always know what they are doing, their opening is a lot about gambling, they considere that since you are not sure of what is doing your oponnent then better being agressive than defensive, and they miserably lose sometimes because of that.
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On August 30 2013 20:29 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2013 12:00 Shalashaska_123 wrote:On August 29 2013 07:28 PUPATREE wrote:
For overpool vs 11pool, how does gas timing compare? And when you go 11pool, how do you deal with annoying probe blocking natural hatchery - is it like 12hatch where you pull 2 drones to fight/chase away probe or make it at third or offplace hatch?
Sorry to continue derailing your thread shalashaska. I realize this is savior analysis more than a general zvp guide but now I am curious heh. Hahaha, it's no problem, Pupa. I actually want some more insight and discussion about this pool11 build order. It would really help if we could see a progamer using it in a VOD or something like that. According to iFU.pauline, pool11 is a winner build for the reasons he said in his last post. There are some things that concern me, though. One is the gas timing like you said; that is, how does the Spire timing compare to those in the Overpool and 12 Hatch builds? Another thing I'm skeptical about is whether the Hatchery really comes up before Zealots from a 9,9 gate get to your natural--I mean, the Zealot/Probe attack comes quite quickly. Another thing that bothers me is that the Lings come out 5-10 seconds later than in Overpool. What if the Protoss player goes for a greedy 13 Nexus? In Overpool, you can barely get the Lings to his natural in time before the Cannons come up (obviously, this depends on how big the map is and the spawning locations). 5-10 seconds may not seem like much, but it makes the difference between whether you can attempt a run-by or not. And even in general, having your Lings out sooner rather than later is a good thing if you don't know what the opponent is up to. I also think there has to be something amiss with this build; I don't recall seeing any progamer using it in a ZvP match. If progamers would rather go for the Overpool and 12 Hatch builds and risk getting harassed by the scouting Probe instead of going for pool11 (which iFU.pauline claims gives you a harassment-free Hatchery and better economy than Overpool), then there has to be something wrong with it. Edit: in an old reppack you see sziky opening 9pool ALWAYS on fish, so there is a reason to that and it's fish 9gate protoss loser Sziky is good enough with his Lings to defend against a 9,9 gate build even if he opens 12 Hatch. You give Szikylings too little credit. =P You are not being delayed with pool11 regarding gas, i don't see why you would be delayed in fact you take gas at 14 same as overpool, it is not because u put ur pool earlier that you have 14thdrone earlier, again you didn't try it while playing, also just to give you a little insight, pool11 was executed for a very long time by progamer, before fast expand was "invented" protoss would open double gate all the time, zerg players at this time were opening pool11 and not overpool. There was a reason for it try to make a guess. Pupatree you are not being annoyed putting your natural because of the drone scouting probe coming to your base that gives you time to hide your 11th drone, i explained it clearly in my previous post. I just suggest you try it. The reason they go overpool is because most of the time pro assume protoss would go fast expand, but i can assure you that if most of the time protoss would go double gate, you will almost never see hatch12. I am not underestimating sziky zergling micro, but if his opening was always pool9 in his 300 games reppack on fish, please make a guess. I don't understand why you are so skeptical because you weren't playing at the time everybody was doing it. Anyway I think I gave out my little knowledge, unless ppl are willing to try it out the way i explained it i don;t expect them to acknowledge because they can always come up with, why jaedong doesn't do it, On top of that I did clearly say that I got this opening watching sAviOr, and that's why I did post in this thread. hehe I don't think it is having a good critical thinking assuming pool11 must be broken because it is not executed by pro. I play pool11 assuming protoss would double gate, pro play overpool assuming they would fast expand. That's why you don't see it often. Progamers don't always know what they are doing, their opening is a lot about gambling, they considere that since you are not sure of what is doing your oponnent then better being agressive than defensive, and they miserably lose sometimes because of that.
The reason I'm skeptical about pool11 is because you haven't provided an example of a progamer using it in a game. If it's true that everybody used to open with it back in the day, then it shouldn't be hard to find a VOD, right? An article about pool11 on Liquipedia would also be a great help. For all we know, sAviOr might have goofed in the game you saw him use it.
You said, "The reason they go overpool is because most of the time pro assume protoss would go fast expand, but i can assure you that if most of the time protoss would go double gate, you will almost never see hatch12." I disagree with this. Before Bisu came along with his Bisu Build and made the fast expand more popular, Protoss players went for 2 gate strategies more often; however, this didn't deter Zerg players from opening with 12 Hatch. Here are two examples:
sAviOr vs. Much (12 Hatch vs. 10/12 Gateway)
+ Show Spoiler +
The game was played in February of 2007 in the Shinhan Season 3 OSL.
The map is Longinus II.
Special thanks to wifebeater232 on Youtube for uploading the video.
sAviOr vs. Nal_rA (12 Hatch vs. 10/10 Gateway)
+ Show Spoiler +
The game was played in January of 2007 in the GOM TV MSL.
The map is Longinus II.
Special thanks to wifebeater232 on Youtube for uploading the video.
I feel sAviOr didn't have to build an early Sunken Colony--he had many Lings and Drones against Nal_rA's 3 Zealots, and he had more Lings coming from 2 Hatcheries.
I was being silly with my comment about Sziky. But if I had to guess why he always opens 9 Pool, I would say it's because he doesn't like playing a defensive game early on. There's a stereotype about PvZ that says Protoss is always the aggressor and Zerg is always the defender in the beginning; this is just a result of constantly opening with an economic build like 12 Hatch every game. I figure that Sziky detests this stereotype and wants to punish Protoss players who try to punish Zerg players going for a fast expand. Taking initiative in the early game is what makes him feel comfortable and in control while playing. The only drawbacks to opening 9 Pool every game that I can think of are (1) he risks being too predictable and (2) he doesn't practice other openings.
If you play ZvP assuming Protoss will double gate, then I have a little something for you. According to Liquipedia, one Zerg build that is very effective against 2 gate (and was popular before the Forge FE became popular) is the 10 Hatch build. Compared to 12 Hatch, the natural expo and Spawning Pool come up 20 seconds faster.
Cheers, Mr. Pauline, good sir~
wow! wow! wow! nice one! love and respect savior's skills in bw! my favorite bw player!
Thank you, riyanme. I think sAviOr's really awesome too
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i don't have the energy or the will to send you a replay and explaining you how life works in it, you can experience it anyday, if you are not willing to and prefer to stay on your current background it is fine after all.
"For all we know, sAviOr might have goofed in the game you saw him use it."
................... I give up. We are like politician, I am talking about science and you are talking about assumption. From this point of time it is waste of time.
cheers
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On August 31 2013 17:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
i don't have the energy or the will to send you a replay and explaining you how life works in it, you can experience it anyday, if you are not willing to and prefer to stay on your current background it is fine after all.
"For all we know, sAviOr might have goofed in the game you saw him use it."
................... I give up. We are like politician, I am talking about science and you are talking about assumption. From this point of time it is waste of time.
cheers
Pauline, I'm not asking for a replay or any more explanations about pool11. You already explained in an earlier post about how pool11 is a good build. What I want is an actual VOD from Youtube of a progamer using this build to defend a double gate opening. How is that so difficult to find if this build was commonplace a while back (according to you)?
I don't understand what you said in your last few sentences. The reason I said, "For all we know, sAviOr might have goofed in the game you saw him use it," was to exaggerate the fact that you haven't provided any proof (VOD or FPVOD) that pool11 is a legitimate opening. Your saying that you saw sAviOr using it in a game is not good enough. Show me the video in which he uses the pool11 build, and I will have a better opinion of it.
In the post before my last one, I was trying to play devil's advocate with you for the sake of discussion. I wasn't trying to discourage you from arguing in favor of pool11. Contrary to what you might think, I am open to (and even curious about) this pool11 build. You made it sound too good to be true when you listed all its advantages without considering some of the things that could set you back. I believe that in order for one to optimize his or her play, the strengths and weaknesses of the build being used need to be understood. That's why I included a section on weaknesses of the 4 Base, 8 Hatchery Hydra Build in my guide, for example. My point is you need to consider things that can put you at a disadvantage if you go for the pool11 build.
I'm sorry you feel this discussion is a waste of time now. I hope you learned something useful while it lasted. Good luck to you in your games~
Sincerely,
Shalashaska_123
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Pauline, i think you're in the wrong and you have this situation being viewed in the oppisite perspective, i think you're the one using assumptions, whilst shala is using facts, or as you would call them "science" which would make no sense
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On August 31 2013 21:19 Shalashaska_123 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 17:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
i don't have the energy or the will to send you a replay and explaining you how life works in it, you can experience it anyday, if you are not willing to and prefer to stay on your current background it is fine after all.
"For all we know, sAviOr might have goofed in the game you saw him use it."
................... I give up. We are like politician, I am talking about science and you are talking about assumption. From this point of time it is waste of time.
cheers
Pauline, I'm not asking for a replay or any more explanations about pool11. You already explained in an earlier post about how pool11 is a good build. What I want is an actual VOD from Youtube of a progamer using this build to defend a double gate opening. How is that so difficult to find if this build was commonplace a while back (according to you)? I don't understand what you said in your last few sentences. The reason I said, "For all we know, sAviOr might have goofed in the game you saw him use it," was to exaggerate the fact that you haven't provided any proof (VOD or FPVOD) that pool11 is a legitimate opening. Your saying that you saw sAviOr using it in a game is not good enough. Show me the video in which he uses the pool11 build, and I will have a better opinion of it. In the post before my last one, I was trying to play devil's advocate with you for the sake of discussion. I wasn't trying to discourage you from arguing in favor of pool11. Contrary to what you might think, I am open to (and even curious about) this pool11 build. You made it sound too good to be true when you listed all its advantages without considering some of the things that could set you back. I believe that in order for one to optimize his or her play, the strengths and weaknesses of the build being used need to be understood. That's why I included a section on weaknesses of the 4 Base, 8 Hatchery Hydra Build in my guide, for example. My point is you need to consider things that can put you at a disadvantage if you go for the pool11 build. I'm sorry you feel this discussion is a waste of time now. I hope you learned something useful while it lasted. Good luck to you in your games~ Sincerely, Shalashaska_123
I already told you the weak point of pool11, you can get canon rush because protoss can wall you at the back your mineral before lings arrive unlike with overpool, but again it depends of the scouting and protoss's knowledge, it only happened ONCE to me over hundreds of game, so I think that it's worth taking the risk. Also on 1v1 map i would prefer to do overpool to avoid being too delayed on my natural because protoss knows your position already, this pool11 is good on 4x4 maps. This is the ONLY weak point you have compare to overpool on 4x4 maps, and if you find more please tell me, i didn't find so far. Those opening I found them by trying and it's not like i prefer number 11 over 9.
So far the 2 arguments ppl came to me with pool11 is nexus first, he will nexus first only if he sees it in time, and to seal the deal, he can nexus first and defend it even if you do pool9 with a proper wall and bringing 3 probes, so that's a joke argument.
Gas being delayed, it's fiction, it has the same timing as overpool, and nothing stops you from taking gas before your third if you anticipate very early corsair which savior does a lot by the way.
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Thanks for sharing this! Personally I call it 6 hatch not 8 
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On September 04 2013 19:03 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2013 21:19 Shalashaska_123 wrote:On August 31 2013 17:40 iFU.pauline wrote:
i don't have the energy or the will to send you a replay and explaining you how life works in it, you can experience it anyday, if you are not willing to and prefer to stay on your current background it is fine after all.
"For all we know, sAviOr might have goofed in the game you saw him use it."
................... I give up. We are like politician, I am talking about science and you are talking about assumption. From this point of time it is waste of time.
cheers
Pauline, I'm not asking for a replay or any more explanations about pool11. You already explained in an earlier post about how pool11 is a good build. What I want is an actual VOD from Youtube of a progamer using this build to defend a double gate opening. How is that so difficult to find if this build was commonplace a while back (according to you)? I don't understand what you said in your last few sentences. The reason I said, "For all we know, sAviOr might have goofed in the game you saw him use it," was to exaggerate the fact that you haven't provided any proof (VOD or FPVOD) that pool11 is a legitimate opening. Your saying that you saw sAviOr using it in a game is not good enough. Show me the video in which he uses the pool11 build, and I will have a better opinion of it. In the post before my last one, I was trying to play devil's advocate with you for the sake of discussion. I wasn't trying to discourage you from arguing in favor of pool11. Contrary to what you might think, I am open to (and even curious about) this pool11 build. You made it sound too good to be true when you listed all its advantages without considering some of the things that could set you back. I believe that in order for one to optimize his or her play, the strengths and weaknesses of the build being used need to be understood. That's why I included a section on weaknesses of the 4 Base, 8 Hatchery Hydra Build in my guide, for example. My point is you need to consider things that can put you at a disadvantage if you go for the pool11 build. I'm sorry you feel this discussion is a waste of time now. I hope you learned something useful while it lasted. Good luck to you in your games~ Sincerely, Shalashaska_123 I already told you the weak point of pool11, you can get canon rush because protoss can wall you at the back your mineral before lings arrive unlike with overpool, but again it depends of the scouting and protoss's knowledge, it only happened ONCE to me over hundreds of game, so I think that it's worth taking the risk. Also on 1v1 map i would prefer to do overpool to avoid being too delayed on my natural because protoss knows your position already, this pool11 is good on 4x4 maps. This is the ONLY weak point you have compare to overpool on 4x4 maps, and if you find more please tell me, i didn't find so far. Those opening I found them by trying and it's not like i prefer number 11 over 9. So far the 2 arguments ppl came to me with pool11 is nexus first, he will nexus first only if he sees it in time, and to seal the deal, he can nexus first and defend it even if you do pool9 with a proper wall and bringing 3 probes, so that's a joke argument. Gas being delayed, it's fiction, it has the same timing as overpool, and nothing stops you from taking gas before your third if you anticipate very early corsair which savior does a lot by the way.
Hello, Pauline. I'm glad we can finish this discussion about the pool11 build order.
There's a risk of getting Cannon rushed whenever you go for a fast expansion build in ZvP. Like I said before, you need to have good scouting to prevent the rush from happening. Always keep track of where the scouting Probe is, and if you see it walling itself in behind the mineral line at the natural, for example, you will have to pull Drones and trick a couple of them through to stop the Cannon(s) from going up. The Pylon and the Cannon(s) take quite a while to build, so you should have plenty of time if you react to the rush quickly.
I'm the one who brought up the Nexus-first issue with pool11. You said, "he will nexus first only if he sees [pool11] in time." There are some Protoss players that go for a blind Nexus opening. On some maps, the Protoss player can get away with it against an Overpool; for instance, on Fighting Spirit you can go for a fast Nexus safely at the top-right and bottom-left start locations, provided you make the proper wall with the Pylon, Forge, and Gateway and pull a few Probes to block the choke point until the Cannon(s) finish building. Since the Lings come out even later in pool11, I don't think the Protoss player would even need to pull Probes in this case.
He can nexus first and defend it even if you do pool9 with a proper wall and bringing 3 probes.
I completely disagree with this. 9 Pool will generally destroy a fast Nexus build (particularly on maps that are small or are difficult to wall on). I can give you an example where 9 Pool cripples a Forge-into-Cannon-into-Nexus opening with 6 pulled Probes. If this Protoss opening could barely stand against the 9 Pool, I don't see how the Nexus-first opening with 3 pulled Probes would fare any better.
+ Show Spoiler [9 Pool vs. Forge-into-Cannon-into-Nexus] +Sziky vs. AlfiO + Show Spoiler +The game was played in the ISL3 (Game 1) in May of 2012. The map is Jade. Special thanks to BehindTheCurtainBW on Youtube for uploading the video and hacklebeast and EleGant for providing entertaining commentary.
If you checked out sAviOr's play against the 2 Stargate/+1 Sair into DT Drop in my guide, then you would also know that Overpool has the same run-by capability that 9 Pool does against the Forge-into-Cannon-into-Nexus build. I'll post the video again here so you don't have to look back.
+ Show Spoiler [Overpool vs. Forge-into-Cannon-into-Ne…] +FPVOD Demonstration by sAviOr + Show Spoiler +Skip to 29:10 for the start of the game.The game was played in April of 2013. Protoss player 1v1 Fish ladder stats: 58-43-0 (1293) The map is Fighting Spirit. Special thanks to Nekotrap for posting this video.
Be aware that in both of these games the Protoss base was adjacent to the Zerg base, which gave the Lings a shorter rush distance relative to that in cross positions. Had Sziky and AlfiO spawned in cross positions and did the same opening builds, Sziky would have found himself in the same position sAviOr was in (having 6 Lings outside a Protoss natural with 1 Cannon already up). Since sAviOr dawdled with his Lings for a while in his game before running in, it makes me think that having cross positions would not have affected his play.
The point I'm trying to make by showing you these games is that 9 Pool and Overpool both have an offensive capability (with adjacent or cross starting positions) against a typical Protoss Forge FE: The run-by. They also give you early map presence and put the Protoss player on the defensive. Going for pool11 will give you Lings later rather than sooner, which makes it difficult to apply any sort of pressure to the Protoss player going for a fast expand. If you aren't going to be applying pressure, you may as well go for the 12 Hatch build, since it gives you the best economy.
Because of the less-than-optimal economy and the reduced offensive capability that pool11 gives you, I would not recommend using it.
Sincerely,
Shalashaska_123
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Well me I recommend it because pool11 gives more chances to survive to double gate than overpool gives you chances to take a significant advantage early game.
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On September 04 2013 08:06 LetMeTouchIT wrote:
Pauline, i think you're in the wrong and you have this situation being viewed in the oppisite perspective, i think you're the one using assumptions, whilst shala is using facts, or as you would call them "science" which would make no sense
Nice to have a fan. Thank you for your comment, LetMeTouchIT, good sir.
On September 06 2013 09:01 CardinalAllin wrote:Thanks for sharing this! Personally I call it 6 hatch not 8
Hello, CardinalAllin.
I'd like to make it clear that the 4 Base, 8 Hatchery Hydra Build, as I describe in the guide, is not the 6 Hatch ZvP build as described on Liquipedia. It's important to remember that there is no one build you can memorize and practice over and over again and expect to win. You also have to take into account what strategy your opponent is going for and make adjustments. That's why I consider the 4 Base, 8 Hatchery Hydra Build against many different Protoss builds.
Good luck with your games, Sir Cardinal~
Shalashaska_123
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On September 07 2013 17:35 iFU.pauline wrote:
Well me I recommend it because pool11 gives more chances to survive to double gate than overpool gives you chances to take a significant advantage early game.
Now you're going back to where we were like 8 posts ago. I already provided VODs that show 12 Hatch is perfectly capable of defending against 2 Gate aggression. Open 9 Pool Into Expo (No gas) like Sziky does if you are really that paranoid about it.
Edit: You still haven't provided any proof of pool11's effectiveness against double gate in the form of a VOD or FPVOD. You are begging the question at this point.
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What I mean is, I use the word "hydra" to refer to the hydralisk Den building when talking about build orders. However, you are using it to refer to the hydralisk unit.
Personally, when you say "8 hat hydra" when talking about build orders, it immediately makes me think the zerg player places his hydra den after 8 hatcheries.
Upon further reading it becomes apparent you are actually talking about the very standard 6 hat "hydralisk Den" opening and that it is followed by a hydralisk heavy style.
I think its fair to say most people call this a 6 hat hydra build order followed by a hydralisk heavy style.
Some might argue its a good idea to follow the established convention of the word "hydra" referring to when you place the hydralisk den Building (when used to label a build order ofcourse).
Personally I would label it a "6 hat, hydralisk heavy style". Meh, Lord knows Im being pedantic, but its just a thought
I guess if you changed the label to "4 base, 8 hat hydralisks" rather than just "hydra" that would also aid immediate recognition of the concept you are trying to convey!
You scholar and gentleman you
But again, excellent article, thankyou for doing it.
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On September 08 2013 03:52 CardinalAllin wrote:What I mean is, I use the word "hydra" to refer to the hydralisk Den building when talking about build orders. However, you are using it to refer to the hydralisk unit. Personally, when you say "8 hat hydra" when talking about build orders, it immediately makes me think the zerg player places his hydra den after 8 hatcheries. Upon further reading it becomes apparent you are actually talking about the very standard 6 hat "hydralisk Den" opening and that it is followed by a hydralisk heavy style. I think its fair to say most people call this a 6 hat hydra build order followed by a hydralisk heavy style. Some might argue its a good idea to follow the established convention of the word "hydra" referring to when you place the hydralisk den Building (when used to label a build order ofcourse). Personally I would label it a "6 hat, hydralisk heavy style". Meh, Lord knows Im being pedantic, but its just a thought I guess if you changed the label to "4 base, 8 hat hydralisks" rather than just "hydra" that would also aid immediate recognition of the concept you are trying to convey! You scholar and gentleman you But again, excellent article, thankyou for doing it.
Hahaha yeah, I did use a weird naming convention. I ended up calling it 4 Base, 8 Hatchery Hydra Build because sAviOr gets a maximum of 8 Hatcheries on 4 bases in all the build orders. And also, he uses Hydras as the primary means to contest air superiority (after he gets his 4-base economy up and running), which is the reason why he gets +1 Air Carapace so late if at all in his games.
To quote Shakespeare,
Juliet:
"What's in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet."
Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2)
Cheers, Mr. Cardinal~
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On September 08 2013 04:26 Shalashaska_123 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2013 03:52 CardinalAllin wrote:What I mean is, I use the word "hydra" to refer to the hydralisk Den building when talking about build orders. However, you are using it to refer to the hydralisk unit. Personally, when you say "8 hat hydra" when talking about build orders, it immediately makes me think the zerg player places his hydra den after 8 hatcheries. Upon further reading it becomes apparent you are actually talking about the very standard 6 hat "hydralisk Den" opening and that it is followed by a hydralisk heavy style. I think its fair to say most people call this a 6 hat hydra build order followed by a hydralisk heavy style. Some might argue its a good idea to follow the established convention of the word "hydra" referring to when you place the hydralisk den Building (when used to label a build order ofcourse). Personally I would label it a "6 hat, hydralisk heavy style". Meh, Lord knows Im being pedantic, but its just a thought I guess if you changed the label to "4 base, 8 hat hydralisks" rather than just "hydra" that would also aid immediate recognition of the concept you are trying to convey! You scholar and gentleman you But again, excellent article, thankyou for doing it. Hahaha yeah, I did use a weird naming convention. I ended up calling it 4 Base, 8 Hatchery Hydra Build because sAviOr gets a maximum of 8 Hatcheries on 4 bases in all the build orders. And also, he uses Hydras as the primary means to contest air superiority (after he gets his 4-base economy up and running), which is the reason why he gets +1 Air Carapace so late if at all in his games. To quote Shakespeare, Juliet: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet." Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2) Cheers, Mr. Cardinal~
Hey Shakespeare what rank u are ? do u really tested the strats or just saw vods ?.
to stop 2 gates with 12h it depends of the map and the position the micro u have and the micro of ur oponent. and usually vs good players u die so easy vs 2g doing 12h.about pauline strat.i only find this strat good vs 2g.and its useless overall.cuz atleast with overpool u can punish nexus first .u can punish 2g proxy .i dont think canon rush is a real problema cuz with 3 drones u can stop that.if u know the micro u can do it.but yeah pool 11 protoss can play so greedy and u can do nothing about it.btw with modern walls koreans fish protoss stop my 9p doing nexus first on fs ^^.
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Hey Shakespeare what rank u are ? do u really tested the strats or just saw vods ?.
HAHAHAHA, I'M NOT SHAKESPEARE!! xD
I never laddered with Zerg exclusively, so I can't really say for sure. I would say I'm around D-/D rank with Zerg on iCCup, though. I hit my max rank at C-, the golden rank, with Protoss (after which I quit playing StarCraft). All the conclusions I made and the build orders I wrote about in the guide were made from studying sAviOr's games carefully. I haven't personally tested any of the strategies.
to stop 2 gates with 12h it depends of the map and the position the micro u have and the micro of ur oponent. and usually vs good players u die so easy vs 2g doing 12h.
Yes, of course. There's a lot to consider in determining whether 12 Hatch will survive against 2 Gate (adjacent or cross starting locations, proxy or not, opponent's skill, and the size of the map,). I assumed that the Gateways were not proxy Gates and that the Protoss player's skill was equal to that of the Zerg player. If you are wondering whether 12 Hatch can survive against a proxy 9,9 Gate (with Probes pulled), then I have a treat for you.
sAviOr vs. Reach (12 Hatch vs. Proxy 9,9 Gate)
+ Show Spoiler +
The game was played in the SKY Proleague in June of 2006.
The map is Arcadia.
Special thanks to David Liang for posting the video.
about pauline strat.i only find this strat good vs 2g.and its useless overall.cuz atleast with overpool u can punish nexus first .u can punish 2g proxy .i dont think canon rush is a real problema cuz with 3 drones u can stop that.if u know the micro u can do it.but yeah pool 11 protoss can play so greedy and u can do nothing about it.
So apparently, pool11 is good against 2 Gate. Looks like I was right about everything else you mentioned. Hooray!
btw with modern walls koreans fish protoss stop my 9p doing nexus first on fs ^^.
That's interesting. Maybe that's why sAviOr never opened with 9 Pool in his FPVODs on Fighting Spirit.
Thank you for your comment, Mr. Eonzerg, good sir~
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EPT
