EPThow bout fake double?
PvT Opening 1 goon range nexus - Page 2
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
how bout fake double? | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Im measuring the game start as when a player first has control over their workers etc. All the timings below can be compared directly. The following section details timings of things in 1 goon range nexus opener vs fac builds and some other stuff. Timing of some attacks + Show Spoiler + Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.14 (cross spawn) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 2 scv, 5 vults with speed and mines Wooki vs Leta on Neo Ground Zero 2 fac attack hits at 6.12 (cross spawn) 8 rines, 2 tanks, 1 scv and 4 vults (2 have already died in an earlier runby attempt) Movie vs Light on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.22 (cross spawn, placed 4 mines defensively before moving out) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 1 scv, 5 vults with speed and mines. (Movie has 3 goons on his ridge, 3 goons at his nat choke and 1 zealot. The 6th goon had just got to the nat. He opened 1 zealot 3 goon expo) (First obs arrives at 6.44) Bisu vs Hon Sin on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.37 (cross spawn, placed a couple of mines defensively before moving out) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 3 scv, 7 vults with speed and mines. (Bisu has 8 goons on his ridge and 1 observer joining. He opened 3 goon expo) Trap vs Sharp Sniper Ridge Mine expo attack hits at 5.14 (P spawn behind T) Sun vs Bogus Neo Ground Zero Mine expo attack hits at 4.54 (left vs right) Grape vs Fantasy Neo Ground Zero Mine expo type attack hits at 5.02 (top vs bottom) Timings in 1 goon expo examples + Show Spoiler + Dear vs Sea on Sniper Ridge At 5.20 Dear’s 4th goon is at the Nat choke. At 5.46 Dear's 5th goon pops. At 6.14 Dear has 5 goons and his first obs is out. At 6.18 Dear's observer has reached his ridge. At 6.35 Dear has 8 goons on his ridge Trap vs Sharp on Sniper Ridge At 5.14 the 4th goon is at the Nat choke. The mine expo attack hits aswell. (slightly cautious) At 5.27 the 5th goon pops. At 6.00 the first obs pops. At 6.14 the obs is at the Nat choke. Stats vs Turn on Sniper Ridge At 6.12 the 5th goon and first obs are at the nat. Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero At 4.54 the mine expo attack hits (6 rines 1 tank 1 vult with mines) and Sun has 3 goons outside his nat choke. At 5.03 T lays first mine in P nat. At 5.17 P 4th goon is at the top of main ramp. Grape vs Fantasy on Neo Ground Zero At 4.50 Grape has 3 goons engaging 5 rines 1 tank at the centre line. At 4.57 the 4th goon pops. At 5.02 the 1 tank 5 rine and vult with mines attack hits the P nat. Timings in 3 goon expo examples for comparison + Show Spoiler + Horang2 vs Reality on Jade (3 goon expo) At 4.50 3 goons are engaging the T near the Terran ridge (past the halfway line). Terran lays his first mine aswell (on his own ridge). Also the 4th goon pops now. At 6.04 Protoss has 5 goons and 1 observer. At 6.17 The 8th goon is at the natural choke. Jangbi vs Last on Jade (3 goon expo) At 4.50 P has 3 goons at the Terran ridge (past the halfway line). At 5.00 P has 4th goon at his nat choke. At 5.32 P has 5th goon at his nat choke. (natural starts to mine now too) At 6.39 P has first observer at his ridge. So the results are that 1 goon expo will have 5 goons and 1 observer vs a 2 fac attack similar to the one in Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge and the one in Leta vs Wooki on Neo Ground Zero. Note that this is the same number of goons as the 3 goon expo. Vs 6 rines 1 tank, if Terran is very aggressive Protoss will have 3 goons to engage with outside his nat. The 4th goon will be out 20 seconds later. This is worst case scenario. 3 popular ways to open in PvT are: 1 goon expo (this thread) 3 goon expo 2 gate 6 goon expo Terran can normally scout the nexus timing vs 1 goon expo. This allows him to rule out dts and reavers. It enables him to be more aggressive with his units and with his initial mine placement. Terran will sometimes take a risk and be very aggressive even if he hasn’t scouted the nexus timing too eg Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero. The 3 goon expo doesn’t have this weakness, but ofcourse, it doesn’t have the econ injection as early. The 2 gate 6 goon then nexus is really nice because you can triple nexus off the 6 goons if vs a rax expo, and the pressure the goons put on the bunker keep you even. (I might make a separate thread for this opener). Bonus games (Two slightly unusual variations of 1 goon expo) + Show Spoiler + M18M vs Ssak on Sniper Ridge (game start 2.37) 4.46 P starts 3rd gate and observatory same time 5.13 P has 3 goons on his ridge, contact with Terran mine expo attack (first vult included) 5.24 T lays his 3rd mine. 5.39 P has first observer and 4th goon at his nat. (not common) 6.07 P has 6 goons (so he made 4 goons then got 2 more gates, then made a round of only 2 goons). (not common) 6.42 P has 9 goons (a round of 3 goons) Tyson vs Piano on Sniper Ridge (game start 2.12) 4.41 P has 2 goons at his nat choke engaging 5 rines 1 vult with mines 4.45 P 3rd goon pops and probes are being transferred to nat. 5.48 P 4th goon reaches the nat choke (he made his 2 extra gates after only 3 goons, delaying this 4th goon) (not common) The game start times of each game I used were + Show Spoiler + Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge 1.31 Wooki vs Leta on Neo Ground Zero 1.48 Movie vs Light on Sniper Ridge 2.56 Bisu vs Hon Sin on Sniper Ridge 2.19 Trap vs Sharp on Sniper Ridge 1.52 Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero 1.39 Grape vs Fantasy on Neo Ground Zero 3.10 Dear vs Sea on Sniper Ridge 1.48 Stats vs Turn on Sniper Ridge 2.03 Horang2 vs Reality on Jade (3 goon expo) 2.39 Jangbi vs Last on Jade (3 goon expo) 2.05 | ||
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
Even though i'm not a protoss, so i can't tell you practical advices or experience, i can tell you what i heard and where can you read more. So there are several modern pvt openings, some of them are widespread among koreans because the BJs taught the audience but they are not that used (or known) among non-koreans, except for the higher ranked people i guess. Maybe because foreigners like to cheese and vary the game more and because most of these 1 gate nex builds require at least decent or good micro. But as i said, i don't really know how to do these builds, just heard about them. SKT1 protoss opening build is probably the most famous. It goes for the build that you referred to as 1 goon expo. Its an optimized build by skt1 tosses to hold off FD rush while still take an expansion faster than the T. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/21_Nexus You can read more about this and it's variants here: (not the OP, thats a different one) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/391286-pvt-safe-fe-build Horang2's build. It's what you referred to as 3 goon expo. Learn the exact BO from Horang2 here (note that he is not scouting with probe, and pauses probe production sometimes): http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56072&key=3d09c3 A very high level toss once told me that he likes this build the most and he thinks its the best. The 2 gate goon exp is pretty old and easy and well known, so instead of that here is a more modern tricky 2 gate build: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Gate_Range_Expand more of that here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/222055-d-g-bisu-oovs-new-pvt-opening There are other variations of 1 gate dragoon nex and 1 gate 0 dragoon nex and 1 gate zealot nex and others but those are not as good as this 3-4 that i wrote i think. As a toss, to find out which one to pick depends on scouting, and - if knowing your opponent - mind game. The key is to know when to expect an attack and take an expansion as early as possible that you can still hold. As a terran its quite important to recognize these builds in order to counter them properly. The terran arsenal includes the scv train being pulled, different marine count FDs, strong FDs, 2facts, etc. Choosing the optimal build is just the first step, you still have to do it, cause... ...A lot depends on the execution of the micro from both sides. Luck also has a role. However, a lot of non-korean tvps are much different.Typical builds there are proxy gates, different types of nex firsts (1-2-3 zealot followup, cannon follow, goon followup), powergates followed by dt, proxy reavers, dt expands, and basic 2 gws. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Its 3 goon expo vs 1 base vult drop, P spawn at 1, T at 11 on FS. Horang2 makes continuous probes and 3 goons up to 28. He then pauses probes briefly on 28 to make the nexus then robo immediately after. After the 4th goon pops he starts his 2nd and 3rd gate. He gets 5 goons from the first gate then a round of 3 goons, then a round of 3 zealots. He gets 2 observers then shuttle. It’s a great example of the opener. The rep doesn’t show anything beyond that cus Horang2 wins with it convincingly, its a short game. Note that the round of 3 zealots was earlier than normal. Also note that Horang2 is very stubborn with his pylon placement  | ||
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zimp
Hungary951 Posts
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56097 | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/476871-micro-map-pvt-goon There isnt a '2 tank 8 marine' scenario for you, but there is 2 fac and mine expo. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2277 Posts
On January 25 2015 00:26 c3rberUs wrote: Thanks for the thread Cardinal, I'm getting smashed by 2 tank FDs and 2 Fac openings using this build lately. gotta improve that goon micro. 2fac is hard to stop, but not impossible if you time your robo right and skip 2nd observer, get +3 gate asap, and 1 shuttle, try not to lose dragoons as the push is comming, is important that u delay by microing close to his expo, if you keep all your goon at your natural you insta lose vs 2 fact. | ||
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