EPTCarrier vs Arbiter in lategame PvT
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
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TameTheMan
United States71 Posts
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TameTheMan
United States71 Posts
 , it depends on how he's managing his money as well | ||
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miNi
Korea (South)2010 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
Actually, I don't really get it either.  (edit: add things) | ||
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stambe
Bulgaria498 Posts
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iamke55
United States2806 Posts
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RaGe
Belgium9950 Posts
you should prefer arbs though, if hes pushing like nada does. while carriers are better against slow push. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
I usually start air tech after the first push in a turtley game, and in faster games, I generally start it as soon as I secure a 3rd gas and a standing army that is strong enough to at least stall. It depends on every game but going Air is a very intuition and feeling thing. It changes the game flow greatly and play style of the MU changes the moment Air is out. I like 3 Carriers and Arbiter instead of 4 carriers before I show the carriers unless its a really slow game, then I'd just hide and mass em. Carriers with first strike/cloak and scan delay makes micro and carrier harass godly. It's really sick how nice this combo is in early late game. U just gotta survive the early game on Goon Zeal shuttle only. This is with no obs ups and like 3-4 obs.. don't lose em - - | ||
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ubergamer15
United States645 Posts
On January 07 2006 10:25 SuperJongMan wrote: Use both -_-;; 4 Carriers and Arbiter instead of 6 carriers. Carriers with first strike/cloak and scan delay makes micro and carrier harass godly. It's really sick how nice this combo is in early late game. U just gotta survive the early game on Goon Zeal shuttle only. This is obviously assuming you have copious amounts of gas. Money, I think, is the main determining factor: if you have a high mineral-to-vespene ratio, Carriers are the way to go. If you're better off in the gas department than you are with minerals, go for Arbiters. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
carriers are like 350/250? or sumthing like that where arbs are lik 100/350 (i think lol), your probably only going to build 1-3 arbs unless u 2gate and thenyoull probably aim for 5ish, 3arbs add to 300/1050, whereas carriers you need atleast 6 to start dealing damage, which is roughly 2100mins and 1500gas(?) and probably wanting to pump off 3gate, which means you need around 750 upfront whereas arb only needs 350. So imo you need both good min/gas for carriers, whereas arbs you only need gas | ||
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Terross
United States878 Posts
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GeneralCash
Croatia346 Posts
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CommanderCheng
China68 Posts
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
Worst of all is when people go carriers with 0/0/0 vs 3/3 goliaths and the carriers get raped -- after all, they're doing only 2 damage per shot, while the golies need only 17 shots rather than the usual 33 (0/0 vs 0/0/0) to kill them. | ||
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maareek
United States2042 Posts
Basically, in lategame if you are ahead of T by a decent margin you should go carrier. If you're way behind, you should go carrier. If you're even or marginally ahead/behind you should go arbiter. Just remember to upgrade your carriers, at least weapons. Unupgraded carrier v 3/3 gols is ugly, even with an army. | ||
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EntertainMe
864 Posts
Two forge upgrades = Arbitors Edit: Basically you should plan your strategy ahead of time before playing. You know... like terran's style or map and such... | ||
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
I don't like using 5-7 carriers because I have to focus on their safety and watch out for goliaths, but carriers > arbiters in most situations. If I have a really strong eco, I would mass up like 11-12 carriers and take out units from over a cliff and gay it up. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Plus, it forces either Golis which really helps fighting with an arbiter powered land army. Research can follow later when your econ has recovered from the carrier/arbiter + the gateway production needed. Initial harass with cloaked carriers if unseen is always like.. WTF for the terran. Totally eats his time. ... Well that's cuz I don't like Land v Land cuz I find macroing anything from 7+ gates annoying and hard. PvT so I try to go sorta fast carriers and arbiters. Innate timing sense and less APM needed + ez(er) to use units. Ya agree jah? Just don't lose a macro fight til then. | ||
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EntertainMe
864 Posts
On January 07 2006 13:03 SuperJongMan wrote: Initial harass with cloaked carriers if unseen is always like.. WTF for the terran. Totally eats his time. ... Well that's cuz I don't like Land v Land cuz I find macroing anything from 7+ gates annoying and hard. PvT so I try to go sorta fast carriers and arbiters. lol... | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Pot smoking and inactiveness has made 7+ gate annoying cuz I broke my f3 habit. Can't help it.. I'm inactive. I use cheese builds and they work a lot still >.< Plus I openly Admit my PvT is garbage now but Arbiter Carrier still lets me compete with better players. | ||
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antrax
Peru191 Posts
My main priority is a strong ground army with +3 weapons upgrades. Also you can try to fool your opponent, make just 1 carrier and show him, many times T start with mass gols which means less gas for tanks in this case add templars and take care of your arbiters. | ||
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Xeroth
United States432 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia13467 Posts
Carriers are better for island maps or ground maps with alotta cliffs + island expos like LT, Plains to Hills, Any island map. Carriers basically need to hide behind cliffs and on water where gollys can't reach them. Arbiters are awesome for ground maps, because you can take out large chunks of a terran army with stasis and own their main with recall counters. | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13467 Posts
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RiSE
United States3182 Posts
And rowdierbob is right, 3/3 critical mass metal is too strong without car/arb | ||
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
1. In smaller numbers, they force your opponent to start building (a significant number of) gols. Compared to vultures and tanks, golies suck vs ground units. Furthermore, the terran has to micro his golies (in addition to his vultures). They often end up wasting shots on the interceptors if left unmicroed, and if they die before the tanks and vultures then the toss can just move his ground army back and get free hits with his carriers. 2. In larger numbers, they reverse Terran's usual advantages in tight, narrow areas. Not only are carriers harder to deal with in a small space, the terran will have a lot fewer tanks and spider mines and thus deal a lot less splash damage (and you'll have fewer ground units to receive splash damage). Zeal vs mass golie sucks without a wide flank, but goons and HTs will be strong. Furthermore, on maps with cliffs, carriers are unstoppable for harassment beneath said cliffs. To stop it, Terran MUST counter-attack, which forces them to uproot themselves from whatever strong defensive position they had and approach you without pre-emptive siege mode and mines. Note that if you go carriers, never fight his ground army with yours unless you have your carriers with you. | ||
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NeO)PhOeNiX
Canada250 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
u should always go arbiters | ||
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shasin
Romania899 Posts
On January 07 2006 21:40 RowdierBob wrote: I feel arbiters are best on ground only maps like Luna, Rush Hour, Nostalgia etc. Carriers are better for island maps or ground maps with alotta cliffs + island expos like LT, Plains to Hills, Any island map. Carriers basically need to hide behind cliffs and on water where gollys can't reach them. Arbiters are awesome for ground maps, because you can take out large chunks of a terran army with stasis and own their main with recall counters. you should watch Ra play | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13467 Posts
Nerd toss can blow me. | ||
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shasin
Romania899 Posts
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uT)Murray
Finland359 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
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max_power
Slovakia163 Posts
On January 07 2006 12:17 Bill307 wrote: Do not go carriers if your air upgrades lag behind his metal upgrades by more than 1/1. Go arbs instead and if you really want carriers, then start upgrading your air attack+armour but wait until you start to catch up to him in upgrades before you switch. Worst of all is when people go carriers with 0/0/0 vs 3/3 goliaths and the carriers get raped -- after all, they're doing only 2 damage per shot, while the golies need only 17 shots rather than the usual 33 (0/0 vs 0/0/0) to kill them. so basically you wrote down my opinion  So you want to make carriers rather mid-game than late-game. It all depends on your opponent how he upgrades. If you see he is golliath heavy with 2 armories running, dont bother to make carriers unless you are really fast and rich so you wont get behind in upgrades more than 2 levels. Also its easier to get out 1-3 arbiters than 6+ carriers (plus its cheaper and you only need 2 stargates which makes it more difficult to scan) I prefer carriers when I have a major advantage or the terran goes camp on a map where it is hard to flank (lots of bridges,cliffs...) thus giving me the map advantage Arbiters when we both are 200 --> late game with lvl 3 upg. My question would be how you use arbiters against a heavy camped terran in 200 vs 200 games? Usually I go recall into main/and/or/expo with the classic ramp stasis. I dont see much use of arbs in frontal attacks as they're almost useless if turrets are present. | ||
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