EPT
Fast expo pvp
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Flyingsnow
Japan208 Posts
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rpf289
United States3524 Posts
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1INK
United States630 Posts
that's my advice, i dunno what the experts here will say but shit like that has worked for me in the past ... | ||
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XDawn
Canada4040 Posts
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NasuHasano155
United States47 Posts
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Flyingsnow
Japan208 Posts
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tehsnow
Canada296 Posts
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA22259 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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Echo
United States435 Posts
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Codditer
United States70 Posts
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NerO
United States2071 Posts
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MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
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hasuwar
7365 Posts
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FroST(TE)
United States909 Posts
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
So I've just played against a fast expo PvP ; we were cross map on Luna and I generally scout cross map first to know if I should go 1 or 2 gate. Anyway, I scout him quickly and see the forge @choke, so I add a second gate and think "OK, I will go 6-8 zeals and that should do it". However, he attempts to cannon rush me at my main. I get rid of it before the cannon warps in (he canceled the cannon but lost 200 in pylons) but I lose much time and did the mistake of sending back 2 zeals home because I kinda panicked. So I think "hmm, he got delayed with this failed cannon rush so I should try to go all-in with my 5 units (4 zeals, 1 goon)". But he had 2 cannons @choke + 1 zeal, so I couldn't do any damage. Afterwards, I get behind in units and in eco so I lose this game (after trying a fast DT drop but I was already behind anyway). Here are the questions : * when scouting a FE build in PvP cross map, what's the best behaviour to have ? Zeal rush might/will come a little late because of the positions so I don't know if it's really viable... especially if the opponent cannon rushes, 'cause you'll need zeals to get rid of the pylons before the cannon actually does some damage. * if you rush or go all-in like I did, what's the best option ? Try to kill his cannons or ignore them and rush into his main ? * during the game I hesitated going reavers. After rewatching the rep, I think a reav drop in his main (instead of DT) would have been much more efficient but I'm just not sure about that. Anyway, thanks for your any advice ! Here's the replay. Please just don't say "you need to improve your macro" or "woek on your multitask abilities" or things of the like. I know what I lack in SC but that's not the point of my post. Thanks ! | ||
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Foresaken_Foreskin
Canada92 Posts
I have the replay just PM me if you want it. Remember to not let enemy scout you out as well. (never ever) | ||
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wXs.Havok
Argentina529 Posts
Edit: But careful, if you fail, he will be outmacroing you soon. So consider what everyone else sayd in this thread. | ||
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Foresaken_Foreskin
Canada92 Posts
NVM! i didnt read ... | ||
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
On December 20 2006 08:47 Foresaken_Foreskin wrote: I have the replay just PM me if you want it. There's a lilnk to it at the end of my post | ||
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Foresaken_Foreskin
Canada92 Posts
) | ||
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Foresaken_Foreskin
Canada92 Posts
The reason for this is so that the replay can be seen. | ||
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Foresaken_Foreskin
Canada92 Posts
[url blocked] | ||
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mK.))
United States80 Posts
Cannon rush that late, you dont even need to send probes, you would of had goon(s) before cannon completes. | ||
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Flaccid
8893 Posts
On August 26 2005 17:57 rpf289 wrote: I just go range after my first gate and then add another gate, rally both to his expo, and micro my ass off. :D Make the fucker bleed. | ||
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
 Yeah, 3 gate goon might have been a good option too ; now you mention it, I "mixed up" tech and units because I had money to spend while the tech buildings were warping. Maybe I should have expoed instead. | ||
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Purind
Canada3562 Posts
If you don't like doing things this way, you can do a well timed 3-4 gate goon attack. I've been trying out pvp FE builds, and if I guess/scout correctly, I can stop most things (reaver/dt/2gate zeal), but I remember losing to a 4 gate goon super well timed attack, and I could not wrap my head around how I could have defended that (even if I had maphack) | ||
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
Reach goes 12 nexus on Rh3. Go figure. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
P.S. If there a cliff over nat, you could just tech asap to robo and cannon / goon his cliff. | ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On December 20 2006 15:09 Purind wrote: If he goes forge, then expand, I'm pretty sure you can expand at around the same time he can. Difference? He'll have a forge and cannons, you'll have units. If you don't like doing things this way, you can do a well timed 3-4 gate goon attack. I've been trying out pvp FE builds, and if I guess/scout correctly, I can stop most things (reaver/dt/2gate zeal), but I remember losing to a 4 gate goon super well timed attack, and I could not wrap my head around how I could have defended that (even if I had maphack) Attempting an all in attack like that many times has to do with how late you scout him and what the map is. If the guy already has his nexus down and you've been spending your resources going with a standard goon build, you'de be pretty behind by trying to reverse what you've done and expand yourself. | ||
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Aurious
Canada1772 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On December 20 2006 19:03 ManaBlue wrote: Attempting an all in attack like that many times has to do with how late you scout him and what the map is. If the guy already has his nexus down and you've been spending your resources going with a standard goon build, you'de be pretty behind by trying to reverse what you've done and expand yourself. If you scout after pylon or gate and he goes forge first, I think its really unlikely that he will be able to get the nexus down before you have an inkling of it. And if he doesn't, you can pretty much expo after gate and assim for a flat out advantage in tech w/o losing much in terms of expo timing. | ||
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On maps where nex first builds are bad pvp, like the standard 4v4 LT style maps (luna for example) I don't see the benefit from it. It should be easy to 3 gate goon an early expo on a map like that. I was thinking more along the lines of a map with bigger walking distance. EDIT: I heard that Reach 12 nexed on RH3 against Leg in a recent league. I forget what it was and which thread I read it in, but I never saw the game. Anyone know anything about it? It might be interesting to talk about the game, maybe watch the rep if it was released, in the context of this discussion. | ||
Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
On December 21 2006 00:07 ManaBlue wrote: That's a good point. I haven't really seen forge/cannon first builds often though. Most of the nex first pvp builds I've seen have been 12 to 14 nexus first followed by gate or maybe forge. On maps where nex first builds are bad pvp, like the standard 4v4 LT style maps (luna for example) I don't see the benefit from it. It should be easy to 3 gate goon an early expo on a map like that. I was thinking more along the lines of a map with bigger walking distance. EDIT: I heard that Reach 12 nexed on RH3 against Leg in a recent league. I forget what it was and which thread I read it in, but I never saw the game. Anyone know anything about it? It might be interesting to talk about the game, maybe watch the rep if it was released, in the context of this discussion. It's a bad game, Reach wanted to lose. 2 gate zealot beat him. | ||
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On December 20 2006 09:39 Taiche wrote: mK : yeah, I wasn't so sure about what to send to kill the cannon rush. I had 2 zeals but somehow I thought it wasn't enough. As I said, I was panicking a bit Yeah, 3 gate goon might have been a good option too ; now you mention it, I "mixed up" tech and units because I had money to spend while the tech buildings were warping. Maybe I should have expoed instead. Money build > Army build > Tech build > Money build So what you need is a Tech build. Either goon/rvr pounding or just straight up many goons. | ||
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patrick321
United States185 Posts
Besides that, i really want to say that going after his pylon with zealots was a really stupid idea. You lost your army in exchange for ~100 shield damage and really didn't have a prayer of doing 600 damage to the well placed pylon with your small zealot force. Even going in with the small force was iffy, imo. The way his cannons were set up a zealot force really wasn't going to be effective. | ||
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Taiche
France1963 Posts
On December 20 2006 18:38 Aphelion02 wrote: When scout forge first, what I like to do is to block his nexus w/ probe or pylon like you would vs Zerg, then expo yourself. In the middle of this you can maybe sneak in one zeal to kill probes since he has no mobile defense. If you manage to do this, he is really fucked, cause he is behind in tech, economy, and even troops soon (cause you got gate / assim instead of his forge / cannon). After this, there is no way he can defend vs goon / reaver without spending heavily on cannons as he'd have to worry about his main and his entrance. It should be a easy win at this point. That's a good idea, but if he places his cannons well, those cannons will be able to shoot the pylon in no time. But I agree it should delay him quite a bit. P.S. If there a cliff over nat, you could just tech asap to robo and cannon / goon his cliff. It was on Luna but I'll think of it on cliff maps. On December 21 2006 00:38 evanthebouncy~ wrote: Money build > Army build > Tech build > Money build So what you need is a Tech build. Either goon/rvr pounding or just straight up many goons. OK, thanks for the advice ! Looks like goon/reav or quick reav drop would have been the right thing to do. On December 21 2006 02:06 patrick321 wrote: My first impression was that the forge first build was done expressely to take advantage of the chance for offensive cannons with the hope that you quick expo. If you do expo you'll have next to nothing to defend against the cannon with. Since that's a map specific strat you should be able to guess when it's coming and prevent it with a pylon of your own. Good point ; how do you "guess when it's coming" ? Just by seeing forge first ? Besides that, i really want to say that going after his pylon with zealots was a really stupid idea. You lost your army in exchange for ~100 shield damage and really didn't have a prayer of doing 600 damage to the well placed pylon with your small zealot force. Even going in with the small force was iffy, imo. The way his cannons were set up a zealot force really wasn't going to be effective. Yeah, I realized that afterwards. I'll go for fast tech next time and don't panic Thanks ! | ||
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sundance
Slovakia3201 Posts
On December 21 2006 00:38 evanthebouncy~ wrote: Money build > Army build > Tech build > Money build So what you need is a Tech build. Either goon/rvr pounding or just straight up many goons. No. FE is money build and you can beat it fairly easily with 3-4 gate goons which is army build. And there are quite few of other examples that proves your chain false. (Isn't sair->dt in pvz designed to stop army build (mass hydra) ?) | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
I don't think I've ever lost a PvP against someone going FE unless he was a much better player than me. Best way to deal with it is 3 Gate Goon. Unless it's a very confined space Goons do very well against Cannons. Position your Goons wisely, micro well and you really should win the game in most of the cases. Or, like others already said, if you see cannons early just expand yourself, you will have the advantage. On a related note: Semi Fast Exp (1 Gate Goon into Nexus) works alright on for example Nostalgia. | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On December 21 2006 00:38 evanthebouncy~ wrote: Money build > Army build > Tech build > Money build So what you need is a Tech build. Either goon/rvr pounding or just straight up many goons. Soooo...in ZvZ 12 hatch beats 9 pool beats 1hatch muta beats 12 hatch? It's never this simple, it really depends on the mass/power/tech equation, and proper timing. Money build always wins over army build once the expansion is online and the money is flowing in, but is incredibly vulnerable before that. Tech build loses to army build in that short period where your unit count is choked but your new units haven't come out yet. Army builds are only countered by other army builds *until* one of two things happens: 1. you win a big battle and therefore have an army advantage, letting you either increase that army lead and crush the other person, or simply converting it into a money/tech advantage (since he can't counter) 2. both of you have large enough armies such that you can afford to tech/expand, because he simply can't build up enough a good enough ratio to crush you. It's easier to have 2x the number of dragoons when the other person only has one, as compared to when the other person has 30. this doesn't always play out in real games, of course, since we don't play with vision on | ||
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ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
On December 21 2006 00:12 Last Romantic wrote: It's a bad game, Reach wanted to lose. 2 gate zealot beat him. Ah, well that's that I guess. Thanks.  I agree with Carnac. Like I said earlier, 3 gate goon works well. Pull probe production and hit him fast. | ||
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mobilescv
Finland72 Posts
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