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BroodWarHD
136 Posts
The liqui says that 3 hatch lings are dangerous as a counter, but again, shouldnt scouting it make it less of an issue, similarly as with 2 hatch builds. So given the raw math of ayumi slowing down zergs economy more than 5rax+1, shouldnt it be better by the numbers? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ayumi_Build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291203 | ||
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blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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BroodWarHD
136 Posts
as i read from the ayumi build - it seems only cuts a bit of scvs during the pump phase, similar to the mainstream 5 rax+1 build, as to not be that terrible in the regard? and how do the detection timings differ, comparing to 5 rax? seeing as how the typical mech transition doesnt even get vessels? On December 03 2011 23:20 blubbdavid wrote: ok ill go for the "evil build" then Why would you bother with such builds? You are a bad, bad person.  | ||
Harem
United States11390 Posts
On December 03 2011 23:15 BroodWarHD wrote: Why 5 rax over ayumi? Both builds are focused on getting strong marine medic timing attacks, both delay tech by a long way. So why is 5 rax better? Looking at the bare math of how the zerg is affected, the earlier ayumi timing would seem to be stronger because of how many sunks(5+) it forces the zerg to lay while 5rax +1 timing doesnt force any sunks, and how zerg doesnt have a lot of lings and no mutas to support. True, ayumi has a later +1 and later stim and u238 because of its delayed academy, but isnt that a non-problem unless zerg goes for something like 2 hatch mutas? The liqui says that 3 hatch lings are dangerous as a counter, but again, shouldnt scouting it make it less of an issue, similarly as with 2 hatch builds. So given the raw math of ayumi slowing down zergs economy more than 5rax+1, shouldnt it be better by the numbers? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ayumi_Build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291203 ....Ayumi doesn't even get marine range. You are dead if it fails. | ||
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
+1 5rax isn't. Also, Ayumi only gets stim, nothing else. You cut SCVs for an extended period of time. You delay everything for 24 marines, 4 medics, and stim. You even skimp out on turrets occasionally. Edit: In addition, Ayumi is pretty map and position specific. It can easily fail with the slightest variation of a Zerg build, and it really hasn't been used at all in TvZs in my recent memory. | ||
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Necosarius
Sweden4042 Posts
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1004
United States104 Posts
Ayumi build is a pre-lair tech all-in sunken break build where you are extremely behind if it fails. +1 5rax has a stronger economy and forces the zerg to fight marines on open ground and to desperately delay the terran from reaching the third base with purely muta/ling against MnM. +1 5Rax transitions very smoothly into late game if you did not kill the zerg then and there, whereas ayumi build cannot due to how late tech is and how bad their economy is. Ayumi build gets later tech than 5rax significantly because you are making shortly as you move out with +1 5rax, and with ayumi build you have to spend your low income on marine range, ebay, and more units in order to not die. As someone said upward a little more, you cut everything in order to get 2 control groups of marines and a few medics. If anything, Ayumi build is like a sparks terran veiled by a 1rax fe. Also, ayumi build cannot be used against 2 hatch either, since the zerg's lair tech is out already and they can easily abuse your lack of tech. And ayumi build cuts way more scvs because with 5rax you can resume scv production and continue it while teching after you have put down your barracks; you do not have the money to do that with ayumi build. And as for your statement about "typical mech transition doesn't get vessels", you'll have at least three comsat stations which is more than enough considering mech kills lurkers fast anyway, and you make turrets and base entrances when you split the map. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On the other hand, ayumi does not follow the standard 1rax fe procedure at all. You cut a lot of scvs, you build academy incredibly late, and your post-timing situation is going to be dire. It isn't similar to 5rax at all. Now, forgg's 5rax timing build is a different story, but that build revolves around a specific timing attack and the 5rax midgame builds that flash started using shortly after are completely different. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
It seems the build I remembered Ayumi build incorrectly. I remembered it as: Rax Expand Refinery Academy 3 Rax ...but appearantly the 3 rax should be built before the refinery. So whatever I said below relates to the refinery first build. Anyway, the only thing it changes is that you get a larger amount of marines and a later push, but still before the mutas. You'll also obviously have less gas, which makes it even harder to regain the tech disadvantage. The main difference between Ayumi and 5 rax +1 is the lack of Engineering Bay for Ayumi and that Ayumi hits earlier, without range. You have about the same academy timing, or actually Ayumi is a few seconds earlier. The proper 5 rax +1, the way Flash does it, delays scvs early on, and more importantly cuts marines. For that reason you need a semi-wall at your natural. Ayumi is meant to be a sunken bust build. If you don't succeed, you will have a really hard time. Your turrets and +1 weapons are delayed, so mutalisks will be hard to deal with, especially if you failed a sunken bust and lost a lot of units. The tech is also delayed, so you really open up the map to zerg. Don't get me wrong, Ayumi is not a terrible build, but if you're playing someone around the same skill as you, you need to succeed with the attack, or you're pretty much screwed, so it's pretty much a all-or-nothing build. The purpose of 5 rax +1 is to force zerg to use his mutalisks defensively. This build is much more micro intensive than Ayumi build, but since you're engaging out in the open, terran has the advantage. The purpose of this build is to pull zerg out of their comfort zone, and if zerg loses a lot of his units, you can go for a sunken bust, which will probably succeed. However, if zerg can trade units and stall, then you are in a bit of a awkward position, where you have to engage lurkers with your marines, while you're getting your tech. This is quite hard, but not impossible, and you should be ahead in economy too, since you didn't have to endure any mutalisk harass. I don't think the 5 rax +1 build is suitable for low level play though since lurker before mutalisk builds are so common. If you're really confident in your marine micro, then a fast tech to SK Terran from 2 rax is much better. | ||
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Wonders
Australia753 Posts
On December 03 2011 23:15 BroodWarHD wrote: Why 5 rax over ayumi? Both builds are focused on getting strong marine medic timing attacks, both delay tech by a long way. So why is 5 rax better? Looking at the bare math of how the zerg is affected, the earlier ayumi timing would seem to be stronger because of how many sunks(5+) it forces the zerg to lay while 5rax +1 timing doesnt force any sunks, and how zerg doesnt have a lot of lings and no mutas to support. True, ayumi has a later +1 and later stim and u238 because of its delayed academy, but isnt that a non-problem unless zerg goes for something like 2 hatch mutas? The liqui says that 3 hatch lings are dangerous as a counter, but again, shouldnt scouting it make it less of an issue, similarly as with 2 hatch builds. So given the raw math of ayumi slowing down zergs economy more than 5rax+1, shouldnt it be better by the numbers? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ayumi_Build http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291203 The build order given there is so suboptimal that it makes no sense, why would you build a supply depot at 23/36 when you'll be 29/44 when it finishes? | ||
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kade
94 Posts
On December 04 2011 04:33 ninini wrote: I don't think the 5 rax +1 build is suitable for low level play though since lurker before mutalisk builds are so common. If you're really confident in your marine micro, then a fast tech to SK Terran from 2 rax is much better. its suitable, its great mm control practice | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
ayumi is an all in, the other is a timing attack. | ||
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
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Toasterbaked
United States160 Posts
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