Helllo fellow TL backyardigans who still actively love BW or who just happen to graze by. I haven't laddered much at all over the past few months but I think I might be a C-/C dude in all 3 races. Its just an estimate so lettuce not get into that discussion. I welcome criticism and other types of ideas and information in your vault that you might want to share!
My advice may be wrong or controversial and I'm not sure if this is strategy forum worth but all the techniques that I have acquired by my own discovery as well as from other gamers, I now impart unto thee!
The first in my series will be *drum roll* Overlord Scouting in ZvP on Python!
Probably some of you already know this but for those who don’t, I shall show how I overlord scout on Python in ZvP and why I have found it to be very effective.
For this example, we shall assume our own zerg brethren as a red circle at 7 and our protoss friend at 8.5 as the blue circle.
Most players would tend to use the first overlord to scout in the white path. This isn’t wrong but it is more wrong than otherwise.
What do I mean by this? There are two possibilities in scouting this manner. One is that you find him at 8.5(yay! Or so you think ) another is that Jangbi wins the OSL. Regardless, the other is that you don’t find him. While to an average player this seems okay, IT IS NOT OKAY!! This is because you will not be able to fully utilize the scouting abilities of the second overlord with proper and precise timing in relation to the first overlord.
The more correct and less wrong scouting path would be to follow the orange path and not the blue path because the protoss is in blue and for other less significant reasons that shall be touched on later.
So right now some of you might be saying “But Jmave, how can this be! Won’t my overlord scouting be later than it would be if I had just gone the white path?!”. I say yes! While the first scouting is later it allows you to move to a further position faster and you can then allow your second overlord to move to 8.5 positioning at the same time instead of idling your overlord at your natural. If you try it for yourself, both overlords should get to both places at approximately the same time. Therefore, you are maximising the timing and scouting abilities of both overlords.
But since most of you are still not satisfied, let us look into more in-depth reasoning!
The biggest disadvantage in using the white path is also your biggest advantage of using that scouting pattern. The real question is “does the advantage I get from scouting the white path outweigh its disadvantage?” Lettuce see for ourselves.
When you scout in the white path, smart protoss friends who might already know this would send the 8th probe toward the little yellow path while the scout moves out at 9 after the pylon is being placed at the natural. This means that he would be able to see your overlord if you had sent it in the white direction and he would know that you had spawned at 7.
The timing that the 9 scout arrives at your natural will be in time to stop your 12 hatch. This means that you might need to get a pool first if your opponent has Bisu-like probe micro to block your hatch. So basically, you gave him the scouting info of your positioning! Totally not worth it! But as with all things, there are exceptions. If he still scouts you first try in that spawning position, then its totally not your day. At the end of the day, this still boils down to how lucky you are but it is just maximising your chances!
So dum dum dum DUUUMMM. Why use orange scout rather than blue? Firstly, the orange path is a shorter distance towards his main base. Because at this point you are still unaware of his position and his type of style(FE or 1 base), taking the orange route allows you to see a glimpse of his simcity and move right into the main. Conversely, to not see a simcity and to see gateways in the main*gasp*.
Secondly, the purple circle portion is a point to see that if a probe crosses your vision, then you know for sure that he isn’t at the 2.5 position. The timing of this is usually at 12 hatch when you send 2 drones for 12 hatch and another for scouting. This way, it is easy to single out his starting point at 12.5. It is advised to send another drone to a 3rd base location so you can get the 3rd hatch timing nicely if he does an FE. Otherwise, you can just send it back and do a 3rd hatch in your nat if he does 1 base play.
Okay! So this wraps up part 1. For part 2, I shall touch on how to mine minerals more effectively i.e. which mineral patches to send drones to first and how to send them properly! Hope you enjoyed it!
On September 05 2011 13:18 Jragon wrote: Rabbits like this blog, and so do I. How do you alter scouting patterns against Terran to prevent your ovies getting caught in the open?
I see you get the joke!
For terran opponents, it is better to do adjacent overlord scouting but there are certain techniques to do that minimizes the chances of being spotted by him and to move to a safe spot as well as see as many things as you need. i.e. gas and 1 or 2 rax before expand.
For this technique, it favours if you spawn at 8.5 and 2.5. What you do is you move your overlord toward the minerals. Overlord sight range outranges worker range. So technically if you can just get a glimpse of his workers mining and move out of range again, then you would spot him but he wouldn't spot you. So that's just one of the techniques.
Another technique if you spawn at 7 or 12.5 is to refrain from moving right to his CC location but move at the edge of the base just enough to see the gas. This is so that you can get to a safe spot and so that he will only see you right when his scouting worker reaches his first spawn location. Not sure if you get it but I will make a part b for terran.
You can actually not scout the workers themselves and move below/above or besides the minerals to see if they're mined or not. If you see they're not at 1500, he's obviously there.
Do you send your drone scout cross map or toward the close-by-air position then? Because the close-by-air is actually longer by ground. I scout white-path because then my drone maximizes his scouting efficiency. If I also see that no one is there, it's a perfect place to plant the third hatch no matter protoss position given toss FEs.
On September 05 2011 14:00 ghrur wrote: You can actually not scout the workers themselves and move below/above or besides the minerals to see if they're mined or not. If you see they're not at 1500, he's obviously there.
Do you send your drone scout cross map or toward the close-by-air position then? Because the close-by-air is actually longer by ground. I scout white-path because then my drone maximizes his scouting efficiency. If I also see that no one is there, it's a perfect place to plant the third hatch no matter protoss position given toss FEs.
You drone scout and go cross map with it. (You can't ever assume FE on python and not seeing probe by x time lets you 12hatch just fine. You just have to be careful vs 9/9 in close positions but your first ovie scouting takes care of that.)
Hello fellow brethren. I have been caught up with school but I shall now take the little time I have to clarify as many things as I can.
On September 05 2011 14:00 ghrur wrote: You can actually not scout the workers themselves and move below/above or besides the minerals to see if they're mined or not. If you see they're not at 1500, he's obviously there.
Do you send your drone scout cross map or toward the close-by-air position then? Because the close-by-air is actually longer by ground. I scout white-path because then my drone maximizes his scouting efficiency. If I also see that no one is there, it's a perfect place to plant the third hatch no matter protoss position given toss FEs.
Hello. Yes indeed I drone scout cross position. My second overlord will see in the close-by-air position so all I have to do is send a drone to the cross spot. I'd just like to say that this scouting pattern is basically maximizing your overlord movements. Because even more than knowing where he spawns, an overlord in his base is good to know what type of play he goes for. Like whether he gets early nat gas, fakes and then takes 2 off and goes 4 gateway push. That sort of stuff. The overlord is basically to help in the later part of the game.
edit: and good sir, just to emphasize. It is lethal to assume FE on python, which is why it is important to delay the third hatch until you get a scout even if it means accumulating larvae and minerals. Hence, drone sent in cross spot.
On September 05 2011 15:14 krndandaman wrote: I prefer to scout with the white path first. While I've tried your scouting method for a while, I felt that the white path scouting method was better.
It's not bad as you might think if the protoss goes down a bit and sees your overlord early. This just means you overpool. An overpool at those close positions will force 2 cannons before FE due to the close proximity so I will not be behind at all. Also, I feel like 1base protoss (especially 2gate) can be powerful on python so I love it when I can scout the 1base protoss early and prepare for what's coming. Especially if it's a 9/9. Also, no need to drone scout if you scout him that early
You can also tell where the protoss is with that scouting pattern. For example. Lets assume the zerg spawns at the red spawn in your diagram (6 oclock) and the protoss spawns cross position (12 oclock). Once you see that the toss isn't at 8 oclock you can choose to take a gamble with 12hatch or go with an overpool (I prefer overpool in this situation because if the toss FE's I can still force 2cannons before nex; overpool owns on python). If the toss doesn't arrive at the timing where you are morphing your 10th/11th drones(12hatch) or planting a spawning pool(overpool) you can be sure that he is cross position. Protoss always scouts to the base straight ahead if they dont' see an overlord.
Your method forces the player to gamble with overpool/12hatch with the only benefit being that the protoss cannot get a first scout if he's at an adjacent base. Not worth it imo. Your scouting pattern will be beneficial only 1/3 of the time when you are at an adjacent base. A drone scout at the normal timing will arrive at a base straight ahead at the same timing as the 1st overlord with your scouting method anyways.
Either way, imo the differences between the scouting methods are up to preference and player style. I love overpool and I hate 12hatching on such a short rush distance map so I strongly prefer my method. Your method would be better for someone who really likes his 12hatch and doesn't want the toss scouting him early in the case that he is in the adjacent position.
For a person who expects standard FE and doesn't want to gamble with overpool/12hatch I recommend sending the overlord to your natural choke so that you can see if the probe comes early or not. If the probe comes early, just overpool and if you don't see the probe go ahead with the 12hatch.
On September 05 2011 11:53 Taekwon wrote: C In all THREE races?!
playing all 3 races is best! haha I was C/C/C- with all 3 races but now I'm C+/C+/C- gotta improve my terran!
Hello. Hope that I clarified my position with that earlier post as well. The white type of path also has a 1/3 success rate but it limits your scouting abilities for mid-game. Because even if he doesn't spawn at 2.5 and does indeed go cross spot, once I can confirm his location, I can have overlords in his base to see things instead of having to just peek at the forge and run lings in.
On September 07 2011 11:37 NationInArms wrote: Sorry if this was answered before, but is this BW Series only going to focus on Zerg?
Hi I did not answer this question. But since you asked, I'll be doing things like building placement for P and T, how to maximize turret placement and next in my series is how to mine minerals more effectively.
On September 07 2011 09:54 JMave wrote: Hello fellow brethren. I have been caught up with school but I shall now take the little time I have to clarify as many things as I can.
On September 05 2011 14:00 ghrur wrote: You can actually not scout the workers themselves and move below/above or besides the minerals to see if they're mined or not. If you see they're not at 1500, he's obviously there.
Do you send your drone scout cross map or toward the close-by-air position then? Because the close-by-air is actually longer by ground. I scout white-path because then my drone maximizes his scouting efficiency. If I also see that no one is there, it's a perfect place to plant the third hatch no matter protoss position given toss FEs.
Hello. Yes indeed I drone scout cross position. My second overlord will see in the close-by-air position so all I have to do is send a drone to the cross spot. I'd just like to say that this scouting pattern is basically maximizing your overlord movements. Because even more than knowing where he spawns, an overlord in his base is good to know what type of play he goes for. Like whether he gets early nat gas, fakes and then takes 2 off and goes 4 gateway push. That sort of stuff. The overlord is basically to help in the later part of the game.
edit: and good sir, just to emphasize. It is lethal to assume FE on python, which is why it is important to delay the third hatch until you get a scout even if it means accumulating larvae and minerals. Hence, drone sent in cross spot.
On September 05 2011 15:14 krndandaman wrote: I prefer to scout with the white path first. While I've tried your scouting method for a while, I felt that the white path scouting method was better.
It's not bad as you might think if the protoss goes down a bit and sees your overlord early. This just means you overpool. An overpool at those close positions will force 2 cannons before FE due to the close proximity so I will not be behind at all. Also, I feel like 1base protoss (especially 2gate) can be powerful on python so I love it when I can scout the 1base protoss early and prepare for what's coming. Especially if it's a 9/9. Also, no need to drone scout if you scout him that early
You can also tell where the protoss is with that scouting pattern. For example. Lets assume the zerg spawns at the red spawn in your diagram (6 oclock) and the protoss spawns cross position (12 oclock). Once you see that the toss isn't at 8 oclock you can choose to take a gamble with 12hatch or go with an overpool (I prefer overpool in this situation because if the toss FE's I can still force 2cannons before nex; overpool owns on python). If the toss doesn't arrive at the timing where you are morphing your 10th/11th drones(12hatch) or planting a spawning pool(overpool) you can be sure that he is cross position. Protoss always scouts to the base straight ahead if they dont' see an overlord.
Your method forces the player to gamble with overpool/12hatch with the only benefit being that the protoss cannot get a first scout if he's at an adjacent base. Not worth it imo. Your scouting pattern will be beneficial only 1/3 of the time when you are at an adjacent base. A drone scout at the normal timing will arrive at a base straight ahead at the same timing as the 1st overlord with your scouting method anyways.
Either way, imo the differences between the scouting methods are up to preference and player style. I love overpool and I hate 12hatching on such a short rush distance map so I strongly prefer my method. Your method would be better for someone who really likes his 12hatch and doesn't want the toss scouting him early in the case that he is in the adjacent position.
For a person who expects standard FE and doesn't want to gamble with overpool/12hatch I recommend sending the overlord to your natural choke so that you can see if the probe comes early or not. If the probe comes early, just overpool and if you don't see the probe go ahead with the 12hatch.
On September 05 2011 11:53 Taekwon wrote: C In all THREE races?!
playing all 3 races is best! haha I was C/C/C- with all 3 races but now I'm C+/C+/C- gotta improve my terran!
Hello. Hope that I clarified my position with that earlier post as well. The white type of path also has a 1/3 success rate but it limits your scouting abilities for mid-game. Because even if he doesn't spawn at 2.5 and does indeed go cross spot, once I can confirm his location, I can have overlords in his base to see things instead of having to just peek at the forge and run lings in.
you can still get the overlord into the protoss' base in time to take a peek at what he's doing. sure you get it in earlier with your scouting pattern but as long as you get a peak before the is out it shouldn't make too much of a difference.
Just to point out, the timing is quite different. For me, I usually go into 5 hatch hydra right away without getting the spire. So for me, a fast second gate means I need to start hydras momentarily after i plant down my 5th hatch. Without the information of the second gate or third gate or whether he gets the citadel first then stargate is very important. If he spawns at the other few spots, it is not a problem but on a cross spot, it becomes quite disadvantageous as I will not be able to keep tabs on things as early as I can.
Even if you went spire first, you will still have to know these things because you will need to know when to sunken up as well.
I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
This is quite interesting. The theory and logic behind it is quite simple. However, on a bigger picture, instead of providing you with "maximized scouting", in reality, it seems more of you denying the P of scouting by checking the Overlord position. The probability of being scouted is going to be 33.3%, but by doing your scouting pattern, you re-affirm that 1/3rd probability, instead of him catching the overlord and causing your 12hatch to get blocked.
Very nice work; will definitely use this from now on :-)
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white.
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
i actually think its worse overall but i wouldnt say its stupid to do it sometimes. although the 2nd overlord is quite useless if your opponent is not adjacent, i would much rather get quick scouting. if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base. at that timing, my 1st ovie would already be in the adjacent base. if you were planning to go 12hatch the protoss could still probe block you regardless of 12hatch/overpool because protoss always scouts across first if it doesnt see an overlord. any forward gate 9/9 or proxy gates will outright kill you 99% of the time regardless if you scout it because you already 12hatched. so i dont see how that will help you there. besides, who honestly proxies on python? ive only seen proxy gates on that map maybe 2 or 3 times out of the 1000+ games i've played on it lol. your scout pattern is good for mid game but quite terrible early game tbh. which is bad because its so much easier to get boned in early game zvp on python.
you say you would rather get quick scouting but if your opponent is not adjacent, how quick are you able to scout all places? firstly, your drone scout is usually sent out with your hatchery drone regardless of overpool or 12 hatch. so if you like to overpool, your scouting is delayed. not as quick as you like to scout.
if he still decides to scout across, then it is just being unlucky. the whole point about this is to maximize your chances with your scouting. it seems like you have not tried this out yet because my second, first and scouting drone reach the other 3 expansions at approximately the same time with 12 hatch. and i didn't get the relation between drone scouting at 12 and the timing of my overlord being less than half-way, which is actually not true.
even if proxies are rare, they still happen. 12 hatch is slightly advantageous over 9 pool because i can distract his zealots to attack my hatchery, giving my pool more time to complete and i can cancel my natural hatchery right before it completes. since i 12 hatch and my drone scout moves across, i can see proxies if it happens.
so what if he does not do early game pressure but does in fact fast expand? then you are left in the dark already without being able to see things in his base. if you follow white scouting path, your first overlord has to make a longer distance into his main compared to my first overlord.
On September 08 2011 15:19 FyRe_DragOn wrote: I agree with JMave on the subject of scouting direction
I always scout towards the opponents closest natural and send my drone across the map. this serves two purposes - to check the center for proxies, and to maximize the time i have to mine and move drones to place a hatchery before he knows where i am, while placing my overlords in the most important location for my scouting needs.
If i instead scouted his main first in a close position (on any map) and saw his nexus, that would both allow him to send a probe right away to my base to harass me and cut corners, and then I would have to send my overlord to his natural anyway to see if he fast expanded and how many cannons hes putting down. (if 1base play, the gateways as usually nearby the ramp too)
I dont actually need to see his base until the moment before i make my initial 6 (or less) lings, but he needs to see my base earlier than that in order to cannon and nexus at the appropriate time to counter my opening. Therefore, by having all scouting paths converge to around the same time of possible discovery for me, as opposed to being able to see him super early some of the time, I maximize my possible advantage and minimize my possible disadvantage.
what's wrong with scouting each other early on python? because of the close proximity of bases on python, even if you allow the protoss to scout you early you can just overpool. overpool forces 2 cannons before nex no matter what on python. he's not really going to be able to cut more corners than he would if he scouted you on the 2nd try.
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
i actually think its worse overall but i wouldnt say its stupid to do it sometimes. although the 2nd overlord is quite useless if your opponent is not adjacent, i would much rather get quick scouting. if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base. at that timing, my 1st ovie would already be in the adjacent base. if you were planning to go 12hatch the protoss could still probe block you regardless of 12hatch/overpool because protoss always scouts across first if it doesnt see an overlord. any forward gate 9/9 or proxy gates will outright kill you 99% of the time regardless if you scout it because you already 12hatched. so i dont see how that will help you there. besides, who honestly proxies on python? ive only seen proxy gates on that map maybe 2 or 3 times out of the 1000+ games i've played on it lol. your scout pattern is good for mid game but quite terrible early game tbh. which is bad because its so much easier to get boned in early game zvp on python.
you say you would rather get quick scouting but if your opponent is not adjacent, how quick are you able to scout all places? firstly, your drone scout is usually sent out with your hatchery drone regardless of overpool or 12 hatch. so if you like to overpool, your scouting is delayed. not as quick as you like to scout.
if he still decides to scout across, then it is just being unlucky. the whole point about this is to maximize your chances with your scouting. it seems like you have not tried this out yet because my second, first and scouting drone reach the other 3 expansions at approximately the same time with 12 hatch. and i didn't get the relation between drone scouting at 12 and the timing of my overlord being less than half-way, which is actually not true.
even if proxies are rare, they still happen. 12 hatch is slightly advantageous over 9 pool because i can distract his zealots to attack my hatchery, giving my pool more time to complete and i can cancel my natural hatchery right before it completes. since i 12 hatch and my drone scout moves across, i can see proxies if it happens.
so what if he does not do early game pressure but does in fact fast expand? then you are left in the dark already without being able to see things in his base. if you follow white scouting path, your first overlord has to make a longer distance into his main compared to my first overlord.
if my opponent is not adjacent I can just use my drone to scout. my ovie can still get in the base to scout during midgame. ? yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol. if you overpool you dont need an early scout because the zerglings will scout for you anyways and you wont die to any early aggression build because of the early lings.
its not being unlucky. every protoss scouts across if they dont see an ovie at the bottom of their base. your scouting method only provides a few more seconds of midgame scouting IF the protoss is indeed across. if its cross position, both scouting patterns get an ovie in at the same time. if its adjacent, white scouting pattern gets an ovie in earlier.
while your pattern does scout for proxies earlier in the middle, you're going to see forward gates (which is much more common on python) later than the white scouting pattern. this is because you send drone cross position and let the 1st ovie do the scouting for you. with white pattern, the drone arrives at across position natural much faster than an ovie can. and even if you do scout the proxy earlier, whats the point? you already put your 12hatch down and im going to see it early enough with my white scouting pattern anyways. i can still cancel the hatch/prepare sunken/lings as necessary.
if he FE's im not going to be more in the dark than your scouting pattern is unless he is indeed across position. and even so it's not that much of a difference because my overlord will soon arrive there with my pattern anyways. protoss is FEing, the protoss doesnt have any attacking potential during the time im in the dark. its really not a problem at all.
"yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol". but if you read your previous post you said "if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base". so really, what relation are you getting at? how does drone scout affect overlord scouting timing?
anyway, it just seems like you are trying to prove me wrong. which in this case, i am not going to pursue this matter. it seems like you have not read my article because clearly, i mentioned my drone moving towards the across natural and not my first overlord.
On September 09 2011 05:10 FyRe_DragOn wrote: [quote]
I overpool most of my games regardless, but the fact that he is able to come into my base, harass my drones, and pylon my hatchery is something that i want to avoid. Also a cannon/nexus/cannon opening deals with overpool fine if you block with probes for a few seconds. if you get two cannons first automatically zerg can just make 2 lings instead of 6 and be in an economic advantage.
By not scouting towards the natural, you also delay the scouting timing of your 2nd overlord, which has to fly all the way to the farther base to see whats up. This means if the protoss is there, you are going to be in the dark for too long and will have to make 6lings automatically and possibly send out a drone to make a 3rd base before knowing if he FEd.
i always go 6 lings with overpool on python because of the common 2gate on python. even with jmave's scouting pattern i doubt you will scout a 2gate before you make lings (if he even is at the across position)? dont think the drone harass is too bad since lings come out soon anyways. just a bit annoying. and if he pylons my hatchery he will definitely have to 2cannon first and i can just kill the cannon with my lings fairly quickly. cannon/nexus on python needs more probes pulled than other maps (wide choke so you cant get a super tight simcity to block with minimal probes) and in a protoss perspective i dont think its worth it... probes cant just only block the ramp because then i can kill the cannon with 6 lings. and he can't have just probes around the cannon because then i can just runby. kind of a situation you want to avoid with toss.
i think jmave's scouting pattern is better only when the protoss is at the across position. also, nearly every progamer/gosu korean reps on python show the zerg scouting with the white scouting pattern.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
i actually think its worse overall but i wouldnt say its stupid to do it sometimes. although the 2nd overlord is quite useless if your opponent is not adjacent, i would much rather get quick scouting. if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base. at that timing, my 1st ovie would already be in the adjacent base. if you were planning to go 12hatch the protoss could still probe block you regardless of 12hatch/overpool because protoss always scouts across first if it doesnt see an overlord. any forward gate 9/9 or proxy gates will outright kill you 99% of the time regardless if you scout it because you already 12hatched. so i dont see how that will help you there. besides, who honestly proxies on python? ive only seen proxy gates on that map maybe 2 or 3 times out of the 1000+ games i've played on it lol. your scout pattern is good for mid game but quite terrible early game tbh. which is bad because its so much easier to get boned in early game zvp on python.
you say you would rather get quick scouting but if your opponent is not adjacent, how quick are you able to scout all places? firstly, your drone scout is usually sent out with your hatchery drone regardless of overpool or 12 hatch. so if you like to overpool, your scouting is delayed. not as quick as you like to scout.
if he still decides to scout across, then it is just being unlucky. the whole point about this is to maximize your chances with your scouting. it seems like you have not tried this out yet because my second, first and scouting drone reach the other 3 expansions at approximately the same time with 12 hatch. and i didn't get the relation between drone scouting at 12 and the timing of my overlord being less than half-way, which is actually not true.
even if proxies are rare, they still happen. 12 hatch is slightly advantageous over 9 pool because i can distract his zealots to attack my hatchery, giving my pool more time to complete and i can cancel my natural hatchery right before it completes. since i 12 hatch and my drone scout moves across, i can see proxies if it happens.
so what if he does not do early game pressure but does in fact fast expand? then you are left in the dark already without being able to see things in his base. if you follow white scouting path, your first overlord has to make a longer distance into his main compared to my first overlord.
if my opponent is not adjacent I can just use my drone to scout. my ovie can still get in the base to scout during midgame. ? yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol. if you overpool you dont need an early scout because the zerglings will scout for you anyways and you wont die to any early aggression build because of the early lings.
its not being unlucky. every protoss scouts across if they dont see an ovie at the bottom of their base. your scouting method only provides a few more seconds of midgame scouting IF the protoss is indeed across. if its cross position, both scouting patterns get an ovie in at the same time. if its adjacent, white scouting pattern gets an ovie in earlier.
while your pattern does scout for proxies earlier in the middle, you're going to see forward gates (which is much more common on python) later than the white scouting pattern. this is because you send drone cross position and let the 1st ovie do the scouting for you. with white pattern, the drone arrives at across position natural much faster than an ovie can. and even if you do scout the proxy earlier, whats the point? you already put your 12hatch down and im going to see it early enough with my white scouting pattern anyways. i can still cancel the hatch/prepare sunken/lings as necessary.
if he FE's im not going to be more in the dark than your scouting pattern is unless he is indeed across position. and even so it's not that much of a difference because my overlord will soon arrive there with my pattern anyways. protoss is FEing, the protoss doesnt have any attacking potential during the time im in the dark. its really not a problem at all.
"yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol". but if you read your previous post you said "if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base". so really, what relation are you getting at? how does drone scout affect overlord scouting timing?
anyway, it just seems like you are trying to prove me wrong. which in this case, i am not going to pursue this matter. it seems like you have not read my article because clearly, i mentioned my drone moving towards the across natural and not my first overlord.
my point is that with the white scouting pattern, you will scout the across base's natural much earlier than your scouting pattern. your scouting pattern has the 1st ovie going to the across position first with your drone going cross position. since a drone is quick and an ovie is slow, its only natural that the white scouting pattern will get the drone scout at the across position much earlier. it was never about a drone scout affecting the overlord scout.
its not about proving you wrong, this thread pretty much supports your scouting method as the superior method when it is not. I mean, you even stated that your advice might be wrong so I don't think theres anything wrong with some healthy debate. hope you don't take it too personally. and yes i did read your article clearly, where in my post does it suggest that i did not? "Yes indeed I drone scout cross position."
again as i said before, the drone moves to the across position not the overlord. i move my scouting drone right to the across position when i move to make my hatchery. so if you move your drone scout to 3 o clock first, how is your drone scout faster compared to mine when i send it across first since you will have no knowledge of whether he spawns at 3 o clock or not.
For ZvT, it is a for sure thing that you will use the white path because you dont want your overlord to get sniped by marines. For ZvP however, the case is different and you can maximize the cross by air position with the second overlord. See JD's fpvod at 29 mins. Even he uses the orange path first and not the white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDbCerq_gXk&t=29m00s
Okay just to get timings straight. The first overlord that moves in the orange path reaches the same time as the second overlord in white. This is around 12 supply timing, which regardless, my drone will be sent to cross spot. If he spawns cross spot and does a 2 gate, my natural hatch will be in time to get sunkens and more lings to defend a 2 gate. cross spot 2 gate in his case is disadvantageous because I will have more time to prepare. The timing of the first overlord in orange path is not as delayed as you think.
i've seen more people scouting white pattern than not. the same applies to white scouting pattern. you can get the drone scout in on time to defend against any 2gate. i don't see how this scouting pattern is superior to the white scouting pattern. if anything, its preference really.
your earlier posts seem to imply to me that its not just preference but it is worse off. the thing is that you waste the use of scouting with the second overlord without exploiting the close air to air distance.
okay so let's see. i get both overlords into 2 other spawning bases before drone scout. for white pattern, you only get one and you have to send a drone out to one of the remaining two while for me, i can send a drone directly to cross spot and i can see proxies on the way.
i can get overlords into his base much faster. if he spawns at cross spot, it will be important for me to see at 27/27 supply timing if i have to make hydras or if i can move into my normal mid-game drone count.
even for overpool, him getting two cannons first but me getting hatch blocked is more eco damaging to me than for him to get two cannons first because regardless, probe count is still getting stronger while i am larvae capped onto one hatchery.
if you still open overpool regardless of him seeing your overlord, then both overlords reach two bases at the same time when your lings pop so you can be sure where he is spawning and you have information on any type of holes in his wall to exploit.
i actually think its worse overall but i wouldnt say its stupid to do it sometimes. although the 2nd overlord is quite useless if your opponent is not adjacent, i would much rather get quick scouting. if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base. at that timing, my 1st ovie would already be in the adjacent base. if you were planning to go 12hatch the protoss could still probe block you regardless of 12hatch/overpool because protoss always scouts across first if it doesnt see an overlord. any forward gate 9/9 or proxy gates will outright kill you 99% of the time regardless if you scout it because you already 12hatched. so i dont see how that will help you there. besides, who honestly proxies on python? ive only seen proxy gates on that map maybe 2 or 3 times out of the 1000+ games i've played on it lol. your scout pattern is good for mid game but quite terrible early game tbh. which is bad because its so much easier to get boned in early game zvp on python.
you say you would rather get quick scouting but if your opponent is not adjacent, how quick are you able to scout all places? firstly, your drone scout is usually sent out with your hatchery drone regardless of overpool or 12 hatch. so if you like to overpool, your scouting is delayed. not as quick as you like to scout.
if he still decides to scout across, then it is just being unlucky. the whole point about this is to maximize your chances with your scouting. it seems like you have not tried this out yet because my second, first and scouting drone reach the other 3 expansions at approximately the same time with 12 hatch. and i didn't get the relation between drone scouting at 12 and the timing of my overlord being less than half-way, which is actually not true.
even if proxies are rare, they still happen. 12 hatch is slightly advantageous over 9 pool because i can distract his zealots to attack my hatchery, giving my pool more time to complete and i can cancel my natural hatchery right before it completes. since i 12 hatch and my drone scout moves across, i can see proxies if it happens.
so what if he does not do early game pressure but does in fact fast expand? then you are left in the dark already without being able to see things in his base. if you follow white scouting path, your first overlord has to make a longer distance into his main compared to my first overlord.
if my opponent is not adjacent I can just use my drone to scout. my ovie can still get in the base to scout during midgame. ? yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol. if you overpool you dont need an early scout because the zerglings will scout for you anyways and you wont die to any early aggression build because of the early lings.
its not being unlucky. every protoss scouts across if they dont see an ovie at the bottom of their base. your scouting method only provides a few more seconds of midgame scouting IF the protoss is indeed across. if its cross position, both scouting patterns get an ovie in at the same time. if its adjacent, white scouting pattern gets an ovie in earlier.
while your pattern does scout for proxies earlier in the middle, you're going to see forward gates (which is much more common on python) later than the white scouting pattern. this is because you send drone cross position and let the 1st ovie do the scouting for you. with white pattern, the drone arrives at across position natural much faster than an ovie can. and even if you do scout the proxy earlier, whats the point? you already put your 12hatch down and im going to see it early enough with my white scouting pattern anyways. i can still cancel the hatch/prepare sunken/lings as necessary.
if he FE's im not going to be more in the dark than your scouting pattern is unless he is indeed across position. and even so it's not that much of a difference because my overlord will soon arrive there with my pattern anyways. protoss is FEing, the protoss doesnt have any attacking potential during the time im in the dark. its really not a problem at all.
"yeah your drone scout is sent out with your hatchery drone which is what i said lol". but if you read your previous post you said "if you drone scout at 12 (with 2 drones going out to nat, 1 for hatch 1 for scout) the first overlord is not even halfway to the across base". so really, what relation are you getting at? how does drone scout affect overlord scouting timing?
anyway, it just seems like you are trying to prove me wrong. which in this case, i am not going to pursue this matter. it seems like you have not read my article because clearly, i mentioned my drone moving towards the across natural and not my first overlord.
my point is that with the white scouting pattern, you will scout the across base's natural much earlier than your scouting pattern. your scouting pattern has the 1st ovie going to the across position first with your drone going cross position. since a drone is quick and an ovie is slow, its only natural that the white scouting pattern will get the drone scout at the across position much earlier. it was never about a drone scout affecting the overlord scout.
its not about proving you wrong, this thread pretty much supports your scouting method as the superior method when it is not. I mean, you even stated that your advice might be wrong so I don't think theres anything wrong with some healthy debate. hope you don't take it too personally. and yes i did read your article clearly, where in my post does it suggest that i did not? "Yes indeed I drone scout cross position."
again as i said before, the drone moves to the across position not the overlord. i move my scouting drone right to the across position when i move to make my hatchery. so if you move your drone scout to 3 o clock first, how is your drone scout faster compared to mine when i send it across first since you will have no knowledge of whether he spawns at 3 o clock or not.
wait, are you referring to "across position" as cross position? im referring to across as 3 oclock if you are at 6 oclock. you said before that you send drone cross position.
i meant across as 12 o clock if i spawn at 6. so my drone goes to 12 o clock from 6 and overlord moves to 3 o clock.
On September 07 2011 11:37 NationInArms wrote: Sorry if this was answered before, but is this BW Series only going to focus on Zerg?
Hi I did not answer this question. But since you asked, I'll be doing things like building placement for P and T, how to maximize turret placement and next in my series is how to mine minerals more effectively.
Oh, good. I really need to improve my simcity (Terran). Thanks so much for these guides!
I do this scouting as well, and I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. I'd like a quick add--send the drone to the position directly across from you, and you'll scout all three positions simultaneously. You sacrifice the fast (white path) scout in favor of learning 3 positions simultaneously, and on top of that, you have the advantage of significant map coverage at that point.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/Jeromemave/Python1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/Jeromemave/Python2.jpg)
) another is that Jangbi wins the OSL. Regardless, the other is that you don’t find him. While to an average player this seems okay, IT IS NOT OKAY!! This is because you will not be able to fully utilize the scouting abilities of the second overlord with proper and precise timing in relation to the first overlord.![[image loading]](http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/Jeromemave/Python3.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/Jeromemave/Python4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p216/Jeromemave/Python5.jpg)
