I haven't seen any specific guides for Terran on how to do this, so I thought I would do my own!
Since Protosses and Zergs have been showing off all these new builds that are being thrown around, It thought it'd be appropriate to help keep up with the times with the recent build that Flash used against Jaedong, which was fast science vessel to fend off 3-hatch muta.
There's been some criticisms, but I think the build holds some merit, and while I haven't tested it out completely, the basic outlining of the build is done.
And finally, here's my FPVOD for how to do the build:
The most impressive timing is that the vessel comes out at 7:12, which is the fastest I believe, so that's really good. When the vessel pops, the irradiate should be ready at approximately 7:30.
If you want to push out at around the 9 minute mark, provided you do not lose science vessels, you will have 3 vessels, 2 tanks and three control groups of mnm (24 marines and some medics). In my opinion, that's much better than the 3 tank 1 vessel push, and you will be supporting your attack with 4rax instead of 3.
And now to answer a few questions:
ZnF, why the hell do you get stim so late when you obviously have the gas? Are you an idiot?
Maybe. I get the stim late only because I'm paranoid that I might not have the timing of my gas to the point where I can get my vessel and irradiate at the same time. This may change later on as I get better at doing the build, but for now, it doesn't seem to be a problem.
You're still getting stim before either a 2hatch or 3hatch muta, and since stim timings are only important for those at this moment, I don't see a huge problem.
Another thing to note is that since I got my 2nd gas late in the FPVOD, I might have enough gas for range/+1 weapons right after. More on that later.
I was under the impression that there was a reason why ling all-ins work against Terran...and it's because most Terran openings are vulnerable to ling all-ins. :D
But for this instant, that's probably the biggest thing that frightens me with this build. Early speedling or even ling pressure is pretty good against this build because you're only making units off of 1rax for a good period of time. This makes early game pressure a bit harder because lings will just be really good.
However, make note that depot placings in the natural and a bunker should be pretty safe against most ling attacks. If you're more unsure, it's not a problem to get firebats because you won't need as many marines. Factor in the 4rax that you're getting and you'll offset your marine losses with a more powerful midgame attack.
The beauty of this build is that it helps you transition one way or the other. Flash might've developed this to irradiate Jaedong's pesky mutalisks, but in my opinion, the build might even be optimized just to kill lurker openings.
Lurkers depend on lack of detection, and in this build, your vessels come out so fast that you'll have plenty of detection.
If you want to make yourself even safer, you can drop the irradiate upgrade and instead go for tanks. Since Lurker tech means the Zerg will be staying on lair tech for a good period of time, you can push out a little bit later with your attack. The faster tank tech means that you can potentially have up to 4 to 5 tanks in your attack, and that pretty much demolishes lurkers.
If you guys have any more comments, questions, concerns, feel free to let me know! This build is a work in progress and I'm curious to see what people think!
I will try to get a couple of ingame VODS to show you guys how I do it. If any high level players want to try this out to test it around, let me know!
I don't think Flash is the first player to do this build Also, pretty much every time I've seen a progame where a terran rushed science vessels he's gotten crushed hilariously : 3
On May 16 2011 01:52 Crunchums wrote: I don't think Flash is the first player to do this build Also, pretty much every time I've seen a progame where a terran rushed science vessels he's gotten crushed hilariously : 3
Oh I know, I just cited it because it was the most recent example. Bad word choice on my part though.
And since there wasn't any precise build order, I just thought I'd experiment with it.
I don't remember that many instances where Terrans rushed science vessels. I just thought this was promising so I'm messing around with it.
^^^^I don't see why this is all of a sudden being a huge discussion as this build's been popular for quite a while.
The biggest problem is its inflexibility in the early game since your on 1 rax. It's difficult to defend ling aggression and of course you can't have any semblance of map control or pressure till you get your tanks out.
and the vessel isn't specifically for defending mutas. While it's nice, you still need to accommodate with more defense than you would normally have.
All in all, it's a lot more technical of an opening then the standard 3 tank 1 vessel push.
The reason why I posted this up is because there was no specific outline for the build. Sure we can try to blindly go in and just rush for science vessels, but for something as technical as you described, we should have something tangible to look to.
But thanks for the input! Gonna watch.
On May 16 2011 02:04 GTR wrote: yeh dunno why you'd credit flash for this, i'm sure fantasy was the one who started it.
I was thinking about it crediting Fantasy, because I remember he started this on HBR.
But Fantasy's play was a build that opened up with a mech variant before transitioning. The one I saw with Flash is different and keeps only on mnm
I'm sorry if the title is misleading, but this build was based on how Flash executed the opening.
I DO agree that it was Fantasy that did it though.
Wow, this is awesome! It's always really nice to have FPVOD-s to look at, and I find this a very interesting build. There is, however, a reason, why people don't use this too often - it is, nonetheless intriguing. Thanks again! I wish somebody would take up the role of Stylish and create more awesome FPVOD-s for terrans
One thing to note: The idea of a fast science vessel build is not new--it was invented by oov last year for the SKT Terrans to showcase in their vs Z games in the proleague playoffs.
--Oov's build involves a faster factory and starport for agression with one vulture and one wraith--this forces the zerg to build a sunken and some early hydralisks.
--The second vessel pops around 7:45; irradiate already finished by 7:15 (idk when the first vessel timing is, but I'm guessing its on par with this build--but irradiate is faster!)
--Not sure which build is safer vs mutas--Oov's build delays the mutas a bit by forcing hydras but it does that at the cost of econ slightly
--Modesty goes lurker/ling allin and Canata shows how to deal with it. A few bunkers, a tank, and a vessel up front COMPLETELY neutralize all lurker agression. Irradiate lurkers and poke at them with a tank whenever it is safe to do so and you should be just fine. The Wraith here is IMMENSELY helpful as it scouts the lurker allin (honestly if you do Oov's variant you CANNOT LOSE THE WRAITH otherwise you might as well have just done Flash's variant instead)
--Even though Canata loses a couple of his early vessels to good scourge, he completely rolls over Modesty and that game wasn't even close.
I'll look for more games that feature this--I'm CERTAIN fantasy did this once and Canata more than once
On May 16 2011 08:39 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Fantasy did the vul drop into valk into mnm with fast vessels. It was designed to build up vessel count fast to combat 3 gas lurker/ling swarm
Yeah, my memory is faulty.
In multiple games SKT Terrans showcased a rax-gas-fac-port-CC opener (referred to with incredulity as 1port cc wtf is oov doing to our metagame? in many live chats and LR threads)
this build just feels like too risky imo, even though it gives a HUGE payoff if it rolls into midgame
honestly like flashs mnm micro is top notch and i feel that any muta first opening would still win, i mean look at that jvf vod, jaedong just harasses with mutas, and runs lke 12 zerglings into the nat, what can flash even do, there simply isnt enough mnm force to defend all that
i imagine that a 2 hatch muta would be even worse to defend
high risk high reward, if the zerg players muta harass fails id have to say you basically win a mnm push with like 4 vessels and 2 tanks which comes like 2 minutes eariler than the 9 min push is pretty much gg for zerg, i dont see how you could hold it off at that point of the game. If flash perfects this build i expect to see the meta of tvz change or something
I feel this is really quite a difficult build to pull off against 3 hatch muta. You are way too dependent on irradiates to deflect mutas and you have a much smaller marine count.
I think this build is safer if you open up with mech and then move to a bio transition.
i think in general, JD is too good for this build.. flash just had faaaarrr to few mm/turrets to deal with aggression from JD, but more impotantly, he had far too small an army to exert map control. if the irr was a win, flash would'v had a bit of time to regroup, but jd could easily get 2 groups of lings and scourge in no time. if flash tried to move out, he would scourge those vessels so bad it wouldn't even be funny.. with less than 2 groups of mm, there's no way, imo, he'd really be able to stop the ling sac and with vessels down, he's back to square one with JDs 4th easily takable.
another point about the 6 stims.. with so few mm/turrets, flash has no choice but to stim every time because he didn't have enough defence to cover his base. with the build that flash went, its easy to se the heavy gas nature, but tally up the min of fac+port+tower+sci fac+irr research+vessel.. thats all minerals that would be pumped into rax and mm, ie defence against muta and map control, and a tvz w/out, map control mid game is pretty futile against the best zvt in the world..
edit: tbh, imo this is exacty what day9 means when he talks about "counter builds"; they just dont stand up against solid play. a wc3->bw lesson comes to mind: there are no heroes in bw..
after watching the vod closely, there's something else i noticed: flash could not come out his base to force sunk defence, a most critical move in tvz to keep down the drone and ling numbers and/or delay z's 3rd. i think this build is really just frustrated reaction to jd's amazing muta play recently.
i would like to see a vod or rep of high level, equal play where t actually manages to get solid map control before z can take a 4th before i'd consider this a 'viable' build.
On May 17 2011 17:07 xxpack09 wrote: Can someone actually post the VOD of Fantasy doing this build? Because I don't remember that game... I only remember the Canata one
Fantasy was already doing that kind of fast vessel build in 2009 Ever OSL, and notably lost miserably to Shine in ro16 back then. But it's a little different build because he does some overlord hunting with a wraith, and also build a couple of vults, so he has very few marines and can't defend against Shine's two hatch muta.
Honestly I've been thinking of going back to this build recently just to mix things up a bit. Maybe I'll rep dump some games from my laddering. (I would actually have to be laddering first for this to happen though).
A couple of players do this a couple of different ways. I like Turn's early vultures and mines, but Turn tends to also lose half his economy to Muta harass while he's at it (even though he gets a sweet lategame army with tanks when lurkers are still hatching).
Thanks for the BO and thoughts, this is a good thread
fantasy revolutionized the TvZ matchup forever, and this OPENING definitely started from him (idc if its mech or bio, its an opening). This should always work before C level, but after that you may start to see some timing windows against you in your play, and you might need them out ASAP like in FlaSh vs Jaedong
On May 18 2011 11:03 iTzAnglory wrote: fantasy revolutionized the TvZ matchup forever, and this OPENING definitely started from him (idc if its mech or bio, its an opening). This should always work before C level, but after that you may start to see some timing windows against you in your play, and you might need them out ASAP like in FlaSh vs Jaedong
Agreed. Didn't really notice it before, but you're cutting it SUPER close with 2hatch muta. Your turrets might even be a few seconds late if you mess up the smallest timings.
The reward however is huge because while your vessel + irradiate will be lessened against mutas, the very presence of the vessel with convince Zerg to back off, and if he doesn't, you can irradiate him. It puts you at a really good tech advantage vs a 2hatch and you should be able to roll him if he doesn't damage you afterwards.
As enticing as that might seem however, this build might not even be viable, as I still need to test out more.
For everyone trying to say fantasy, oov, flash, etc did this first. The builds been out for a while even before Fantasy popularized mech and tech openings vs ggplay. It was really popular on colosseum because terrans could wall easily. Think its really hard to pinpoint who did it first.
Example of it used before fantasy vs ggplay.on colosseum. And noticed its still rather risky to use but if you get to late game with gives you this really strong timing push before defilers.
This build has been arround for so long indeed I think midas was the first do to it in saviors prime but im to to sure. I dont think its going to be a std or really viable opening though because even 3 hatch muta can easely destroy it, I think such a build can only be save if you got a map were its realyl easy to turret your main/nat and dont offer to much room for muta harras.
On May 18 2011 11:03 iTzAnglory wrote: fantasy revolutionized the TvZ matchup forever, and this OPENING definitely started from him (idc if its mech or bio, its an opening). This should always work before C level, but after that you may start to see some timing windows against you in your play, and you might need them out ASAP like in FlaSh vs Jaedong
Agreed. Didn't really notice it before, but you're cutting it SUPER close with 2hatch muta. Your turrets might even be a few seconds late if you mess up the smallest timings.
The reward however is huge because while your vessel + irradiate will be lessened against mutas, the very presence of the vessel with convince Zerg to back off, and if he doesn't, you can irradiate him. It puts you at a really good tech advantage vs a 2hatch and you should be able to roll him if he doesn't damage you afterwards.
As enticing as that might seem however, this build might not even be viable, as I still need to test out more.
Ergo, if you try to rush vessels against 2hatch mutas you die. There is no timing that is viable. You'll have to go valk if you really want to rush the starport.
I thought it was Calm and if not then Zero but I have finally found the game I was looking for. It was actually Jaedong versus Piano on Benzene. 3 hat lurkers. Piano probably should have been able to hold but doesnt quite manage it. Piano does a nice trick where he irradiates the overlord. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/49819_Jaedong_vs_PianO/vod
Personally, I think the build relies on turrets too much which is bad because they are passive. Also, the Terran player is gambling that the Zerg player doesnt do something, which is split his mutas well. If the Zerg player splits perfectly and buys a pair of scourge which take down the vessel, Terran is suddenly in a pretty risky situation I believe, even if he did get an irradiate off. So much depends on one unit. It is therefore very close to being cheese, I honestly think. Whereas with mnm openings the units are not passive, they can threaten unlike turets, and they are more numerous so each individual unit is less important. The pay off of this build is an incredibly strong tech push with more tanks and vessels than usual. But to get there, a huge risk is taken. That is why I call it nearly a cheese build. It is sort of safe though so its not quite cheese.
If you made this build your standard TvZ build, I think Zergs would exploit that quite easily. They would get some scourge with the initial mutas or they would do more lurker openings with drop maybe. Or they would expand to a third base earlier because the lack of pressure. Therefore I personally cant recommend tis build to be your go to TvZ standard on current maps. However, it is really fun doing tech openings like this, specifically vessels and you should definately give it a go online.
Also, I have a list of some other TvZ tech openings involving valks and gols or valk and mnm or valk and mines etc if anyone wants.
In a nutshell: Terran delays +1 and range upgrades for faster vessel while still maintaining the image of a 'standard' 3 rax then factory build. This gives Zerg a stronger timing at muta stage but if they do not realize and do not capitalize they will find a very strong pre hive timing attack hitting them.
3 hat lair spire (just after fac starts) hydra den evo 3rd base queens
Here is some more detail if you are interested. + Show Spoiler +
When the Factory starts, Mind has 8 rines. He then builds 1 medic and then 2 bats. The firebats help the illusion of pre lurker aggression . He demonstrates to Hydra that he has stim upgraded at this point as well to further show 'standard' play.
Mind begins the starport before ebay and even 2nd or 3rd rax is finished. +1 weapons begins as soon as ebay completes. Only then does range upgrade get started which is at the same time as science facility start building.
Here is where Minds fragility shows the most. He begins a bunker and 3 turrets in the nat while only 1 in the main and 1 at the rax. Furthermore, he only has 16 rines, 3 medics and 2 bats when the mutas hit. This is acceptable but the thing is, they are not range upgraded and they are not on +1 weapons yet and wont be for a short time yet.
However, Crazy Hydra cannot easily know this and cannot easily take advantage of this even if he did. Infact it would be just a tiny bit too risky for him to commit to doing alot of damage at this point and Mind benefits when he chooses not to. Crazy Hydra attacks the natural first and plays conservatively with his mutas. This is a little bit lucky for Mind because it buys him those precious seconds to build his 2nd turret in the main and 2nd turret at the rax. Mind only loses one scv, and a bit later 2 rines. After that, Mind has irradiate and his other upgrades along with 3 tanks and 2 vessels. Hive is still building giving him a great opportunity to win the game pre defiler and he does.
Minds main timing attack consists of 17 rines, 3 medics, 2 bats with 3 tanks and 2 vessels. He has so far lost 5 rines and used 1 irradiate with the 2nd irradiate ready to use as he moves out of his natural. He gets a bit unlucky with his 2nd irradiate, doing hardly any damage because he targets an already nearly dead mutalisk. Crazy Hydra takes credit for using his lurkers quite well to pick off 2 of the initial 3 tanks. Both players try to pincer each other but Mind manages to be more cost effecient overall and takes the win.
I like this build compared to the one Classic used in the game on fortress I posted previously. It is a variation rather than a hugely different strategy which centres around an already known strong timing attack and simply makes that timing attack stronger by not being aggressive pre lurker. The longer you delay being aggressive, the more opportunities you have to get ahead in the match by cutting corners and these adding up. However, the build never reveals itself to the opponent so he is forced to weaken himself relative to you by preparing for a pre lurker attack that isnt coming.
I'm currently at D+ with an 18-9 record vs Z. I've been using this build basically the entire time....save one time where I a-yumied (and lost), and a couple of the losses are actually me needing to leave midway through the game because my parents are coming home.
Here's what I've discovered:
a) I'm doing really well against most 3hatch muta variants. There are a few places that the build falls short on, for example, there are points where if you're not careful, you may run out of minerals without meaning to, which suggests that improvements still exist. However, you save a lot of money on turrets by having your science vessel really early.
There are also at least THREE times when I had the "Flash irradiate" happen to me. Not so pretty, but it's not a deathblow if you're careful.
b) Against 2hatch variants, the build needs to be adjusted. What I tend to do is when I scout a two hatch build order, I still go for the same build, except when I add my Starport after the factory, I also throw down an armory and get a couple of valkyries before the vessels. Provided I don't get my valkyries killed, it leaves me in a great position against 2hatch mutas.
c) Against lurkers, I just add a machine shop after my factory is done and I will have 1tank/1vessel to keep Lurkers at bay. A couple of bunkers are also really nice to defend if Zerg decides to push.
Updates soon! I hope to hit C- with the account I'm using to test the build but I don't have that many opportunities to play. ><
On May 26 2011 01:09 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Well I really think you need to test this build at higher levels...iirc you are C/C- so pretty much anything will work vs D/D+ ranks.
A good number of the players were C-/C but just hadn't ranked up yet.
Like I said, I'm going to try to get more on it later when I reach those ranks fo sho.
On May 26 2011 01:09 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Well I really think you need to test this build at higher levels...iirc you are C/C- so pretty much anything will work vs D/D+ ranks.
- I prefer NOT doing the 16 cc, but instead just adding a supply on 15, a command center on 18 and a refinery on 18 (you skip a round of scvs and marines to do this). For some reason I've had more success this way.
- Early ling pressure is so good against this build. In fact, it's so good that I might have to just consider working a bunker into this build. And it's no other reason but because you're off of 1rax and you just can't produce anything for a very long time.
I'll get more later. I've been busy so I'm trying to get as much done as possible. Still, as long as I'm only C-, there's still a long way for this build to go!
On May 26 2011 01:09 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Well I really think you need to test this build at higher levels...iirc you are C/C- so pretty much anything will work vs D/D+ ranks.
A good number of the players were C-/C but just hadn't ranked up yet.
Like I said, I'm going to try to get more on it later when I reach those ranks fo sho.
I feel like people put way too much weight in player stats, especially 'oh he was such and such last season.' When I am playing games at the D level I certainly do not try very hard. Matchup, map, mood etc... Just because someone eventually got to C, doesn't mean they gave you a C level game when you played them at D.
On May 28 2011 23:23 Zergneedsfood wrote: Got to C-.
A couple things to note:
- I prefer NOT doing the 16 cc, but instead just adding a supply on 15, a command center on 18 and a refinery on 18 (you skip a round of scvs and marines to do this). For some reason I've had more success this way.
- Early ling pressure is so good against this build. In fact, it's so good that I might have to just consider working a bunker into this build. And it's no other reason but because you're off of 1rax and you just can't produce anything for a very long time.
I'll get more later. I've been busy so I'm trying to get as much done as possible. Still, as long as I'm only C-, there's still a long way for this build to go!
My thoughts on these points from playing Melee games (as opposed to ladder) against Fish server zergs:
- I still do the normal barracks expand where you cut marines if they 12hatch for a faster command center etc. I don't think it makes too much of a difference at least at my play level.
- Yeah lings are really good. I make a bunker as late as I can but it definitely does go down eventually.
- 2 hatch builds.. I hate them. Although my position may be fine, it just feels uncomfortable.
On May 28 2011 23:23 Zergneedsfood wrote: Got to C-.
A couple things to note:
- I prefer NOT doing the 16 cc, but instead just adding a supply on 15, a command center on 18 and a refinery on 18 (you skip a round of scvs and marines to do this). For some reason I've had more success this way.
- Early ling pressure is so good against this build. In fact, it's so good that I might have to just consider working a bunker into this build. And it's no other reason but because you're off of 1rax and you just can't produce anything for a very long time.
I'll get more later. I've been busy so I'm trying to get as much done as possible. Still, as long as I'm only C-, there's still a long way for this build to go!
My thoughts on these points from playing Melee games (as opposed to ladder) against Fish server zergs:
- I still do the normal barracks expand where you cut marines if they 12hatch for a faster command center etc. I don't think it makes too much of a difference at least at my play level.
- Yeah lings are really good. I make a bunker as late as I can but it definitely does go down eventually.
- 2 hatch builds.. I hate them. Although my position may be fine, it just feels uncomfortable.
How's your success actually? I'm curious.
I do the 18cc because I'm just scared about lings. When I go for the supply and then a marine, I feel a lot more safe against ling pressure later.
Against 2hatches I delay science vessels and just go for valkyries. I
Yeah but I'm not really scared of lings. One thing I see flash do that I started copying was sending a second scv scout at about 14 supply. You scout one position then scout the other two at the same time. You know exactly what the Zerg is doing and can safely skip bunker or properly adapt to Zerglings.
I would upload some replays and stuff but my games haven't been so good. Fish melee games seem to be either against really good or really bad players. Once you start laddering though you get really good games.
I think it is an alright build, I prefer to do it out of a vulture opening but I wouldn't make either variation my standard TvZ style. Against 2 hatchery though I don't really like the position you end up in even when you go Valkyries. It can work of course but it just isn't my style.
today though I will play this build some and make sure I get some good games. Also ZnF, we need to sit down and play some TvT games sometime.
I dunnos, man. You're going to have to build a bunker anyway, and if you just open according to your scouting information you'll maximize your mineral income which can go into a bunker at a quicker timing while also getting more money for turrets when the mutalisks pop, which are far more important than with the standard 3rax/4rax tech variations. I just can't see any reason not to expo before supply if you scout 12hatch under any circumstance if you're going 1rax fe against 12hatch under any circumstance.
On May 29 2011 05:22 SnowFantasy wrote: Yeah but I'm not really scared of lings. One thing I see flash do that I started copying was sending a second scv scout at about 14 supply. You scout one position then scout the other two at the same time. You know exactly what the Zerg is doing and can safely skip bunker or properly adapt to Zerglings.
I would upload some replays and stuff but my games haven't been so good. Fish melee games seem to be either against really good or really bad players. Once you start laddering though you get really good games.
I think it is an alright build, I prefer to do it out of a vulture opening but I wouldn't make either variation my standard TvZ style. Against 2 hatchery though I don't really like the position you end up in even when you go Valkyries. It can work of course but it just isn't my style.
today though I will play this build some and make sure I get some good games. Also ZnF, we need to sit down and play some TvT games sometime.
2hat is fine when you open with vult/factory. You just have to remember to get starport (before expanding) and wraith asap to deal as much overlord damage as possible. (can kill around 4 if they skip Den and hydras, otherwise you only get 1-2) However, it buys time for valks to come out. There's also variations where you get cloaked wraiths instead which murder Zergs who don't get overlord speed. Another adv of opening with fac is how you can get a free win over zergs who treat it like mech and go hydra -> muta. Hitting the timing before defiler with as many tanks as possible though is really fucking hard. -_-
Did anyone else get a laugh when they got near the end of the build order based on flash's play and saw "-@100% add 2rax, 50 turrets" ?
Another thing to add that I saw some terran doing was starting the bunker after 16 cc, but not finishing it. It appeared that he double scouted to find out what his zerg buddy was doing asap. He would leave his bunker at 99% complete, so if he scouted 12 hatch, just canceled it, or if he saw pool, he would let it finish. The bunker did slow him down slightly, but the cancel gave him minerals back to allow him to keep producing smoothly. He was able to make up the difference in getting the bunker by getting the CC at 16 instead of a safer 18. It justified him cutting a corner early, allowing for a cancel to keep up with a 12 hatch zerg without getting behind for being too safe, but put him ahead against ling aggression. I can't for the life of me remember who it was, though. Too sleepy.
I just played an interesting and pretty long game on Empire of the Sun with this build. He went for that crazy zerg style where you skip hydra den though. He took his third and 4th as the islands on empire of the sun though and defended with 4 sunkens.
30 minute game but I feel like I could have won it with better macro and scouting. ~
EPT
