EPT
to do something maybe of the same length for PvZ? Obviously what made the other post so great was that we got a glimpse at what you thought and the logic behind your strats and decisions (something you can't always see in reps). So a big thanks if you decide to do write a similar post for PvZ!! [Q] PvZ Bigballs?
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
naventus
United States1337 Posts
to do something maybe of the same length for PvZ? Obviously what made the other post so great was that we got a glimpse at what you thought and the logic behind your strats and decisions (something you can't always see in reps). So a big thanks if you decide to do write a similar post for PvZ! | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
my tip would be to stop choosing pussy strats like sair cannon expo and temp expo. also, if you're going 3 gate speed zeal or 10/12 speed lot/arch, show your opponent your units. | ||
|
Mora
Canada5235 Posts
I will talk to FA and BigBalls and maybe we can work together for the eager of TL.net !~ (FA is very good at pvz. BigBalls beats me at pvz. And my ZvP is fairly unique, and good, if not top notch) | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
| ||
|
maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
PS FA is unfairly good at PvZ. I deserve his PvZ skills. | ||
|
tree
United States591 Posts
| ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Is good. But there's one differance between PvT and PvZ I think, PvZ is much more about 'knowing'. Like, sometimes I'm just dead sure of what zerg is going to do way before he does it. Association memory gogo  | ||
|
pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
On October 21 2004 02:55 tree wrote: All threads in the future with the title pvz should just be auto-nuked. haha, good post, but hey if people need the help it's legit, also if someone made a guide, I'd read it and use it. FA's posts on other PvZ threads are very helpful. | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
FA and rugbug pretty much nailed it. PvZ is all about knowing exactly what to do at the right time. It is so much knowledge/counter based that writing up a guide to it would require so many forks. I'll write something up some general guidelines and good ideas later though, got class in a few minutes. | ||
|
nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
No. ^_^ | ||
|
nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
| ||
|
juSblazin
United States691 Posts
 | ||
|
ChApFoU
France2982 Posts
| ||
|
LetMeBeWithYou
Canada4254 Posts
On October 21 2004 10:18 FrozenArbiter wrote: You play protoss. No. ^_^ FA Dont even play us noobs =] | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
Since pvz is far too complex to explain everything, i'll just go over some basic guidelines. I'll keep the explanation to LT even though I haven't played a pvz on LT in oh 3 months lol. So anyways, here is one variation.... 8 pylon, scout cross map. Gate on 9. You should reach the cross position around 10 psi. If he is cross map, stay with 1 gate and get gas soon after. If he is NOT cross map, make a 2nd gate. 1 gate strat: 8 pylon, 9 gate, 12 assim, pylon, forge after 2 zealots. Send your first zealot across the map. If his lings will finish at the latest 5 seconds after your zeal will reach his drones, run back. otherwise, stay there and try to get a few drone kills. if you stay, make an extra zeal at home, you will need it to hold your ramp. keep zealot production up, and get a core after you start your upgrade. Then get citadel/stargate. use the corsair to first scout, then harass the ovies on your cliffs (cause by this point, you really shouldnt be able to do any damage in the main). Get speed zeal, a temp archives, and a 2nd gate. Here is where more forking begins........ 1) Your corsair sees lair tech, spire building. Make 2 photons in your main, get an archon asap and try to get an expo up (you can build the expo before the cannons if his spire is late enough). Put your corsair on your main nexus after disposing of ledge ovies, then build a few cannons at your natural and maybe an extra one in your main. Make as many archons as possible -- probably 2-3, keep one in your main (strategically placed to stop harassment), and the rest by your natural. At this point you can go scout his main with the sair again cause your's is well defended. You will either see a switch to lurker, a switch to hydra, hive tech, or mass muta. Deal with each accordingly. 2) You will see lair tech done, hydraden done. Yes, lurkers are coming captain obvious. If I didnt say it before, it is generally a good idea to get a pylon by your natural as soon as possible so you can get cannons up asap in case of lurker. If you cant, then you need to wait for robo before you can expand, which puts you in dire straits. 3) You will see some form of 3-4 hatch hydra. Just mass hardcore off your gates, get storm when possible, continue upgrading, expo when you have enough units to hold it. 4) Your opponent will be mass expanding with some combination of the above. Try to hit it right away, he should be low on tech units and have a greater number of lings/static defense, which you should be able to do a good amount of damage on with your +1 finished. 2 gate strat: Just build up from 2 gate. Be aware of how early he pooled, when he made his 2nd hatch etc. Make a smart decision about what to do based on that. 1) if he 9 pooled - hold your ramp, your 2nd/3rd zeals should come in time with 9/10 gate, if they dont, hold the ramp with 2, and bring the rest to your minerals and defend. 2) if he 11 pooled then hatched, try to pressure him hardcore. keep producing zealots out of 2 gates nonstop and rally them to his choke. if you keep the pressure on him for a while he cant tech at all, but is forced instead to make nonstop lings and stay with a very low drone count. gas when you are able and be sure to stop rallying once he gets 3 hatches fully working (unless you can finish him off). 3) he hatched first, then pool. You should try to do some damage to his drones with the first zeal, if you cant, try to prevent him from building a sunken at his natural (assuming he expanded). Gas after about 4 zeals cause he will usually start getting a lot of lings after the initial set back. Then just do a normal build up to temp tech. Get speed zeal, some photons, an archon, expand, etc. Midgame tips: 1) If you cant see his tech, robo after 2 gates. You need an air unit to protect your ledge along with some cannons. Also be sure to protect from muta, lurker, lurker drops, and hydra. yeah, it sucks, but hey, if you dont know, you have to play it safe. 2) If he contains you with lurker/scourge, get 3-4 obs before approaching his containment. Try to have 6-8 goons with range done (BE SURE TO NOT MAKE TOO MANY!!!). A common error i see is for a toss to forget to make temps mid game. It is great to have archons, but storm is the backbone of pvz! 3) Try to be constantly upgrading. I usually keep 1 forge until i have 2/0/0 done, then I add a 2nd forge. 4) when you bust out of a contain is the critical point of a game. You need to do the following things. a) expo to your 2nd natural, b) attack any of his stray expansions, c) force pressure on him hardcore if you can take him down, d) DONT FORGET TO MACRO. When you are in battles pvz, always always always macro and try really hard to bring all new units to battle. if not, you are not utilizing your maximum potential and will probably die to endless waves of reinforcements. 5) dt scouts are great. You cant let him expo to a natural where he can mass sunken and grab 3 bases easily. 6) if he doesnt have a spire, STORM DROP!!! if he does, forget it. 7) try to take an island. The best way to kill island expos is to take one yourself and never let him have it. 8) arbiters rule against ultras. If you havent seen my game against midian, watch it. stasis/cloak really really mess up his ultra/ling army. This is kind of half assed, mainly because i cant explain a lot about every aspect of pvz. hope it helps though | ||
|
naventus
United States1337 Posts
| ||
|
mmm.beer
Canada412 Posts
As a zerg this is the scariest point in time as the toss has usually massed alot of units and can do some serious damage if you've overextended yourself with expansions. On the other hand if they blindly throw all their units at your sunken/spore/lurker wall while not expanding its auto gg once the ultras arrive. | ||
|
ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
usually i can tell if hes getting spire or den some people sometimes cancel to try you. but when in doubt get sairs and harass or get early templar with storm. 3 cannons + 1archon/templar can keep most muta harass away. if hes going lurk get obs and a lot of goons and archons. | ||
|
ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
you guys have seem the power of the protoss :D | ||
|
pooper-scooper
United States3108 Posts
| ||
|
Ceril
Sweden1343 Posts
| ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
tsu was a good kid. i was in 1st with him back in the day. he used to give me nightmares about speed lings, probably contributed to how conservative i play sometimes. but yeah, i dont care if people know my strats, they still arent going to win | ||
Arbiter[frolix]
United Kingdom2674 Posts
 | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
Also, I thought a tip to make sure you're constantly upgrading is to place your forge somewhere near your gateways. Everytime you go to macro, you see your forge and it should continually remind you to upgrade. This helps prevent those loooong upgrade gaps when your mind is all over the place. I also noticed bigballs was teaching you guys to do sair expo. ugh. I agreed with the robo after 2 gates, many like to get it after four but that usually means youre at the mercy of the zerg if he has any sort of drop (speed or otherwise). The reason I HATE sair/temp/cannon/expo is that it is so slow at recovering, and then you have to deal with some big lurker/scourge contain while youre getting continually lurker ridged. It's stupid. Choose a more offensive build and learn to control the pace of the game, force the zerg to contemplate whether hes in trouble, not for you to contemplate whether or not you're strong enough. If you're trying to break out and they have more than 8~ lurkers containing you, you've waited too long. Use your storm just to snipe at lurkers and keep trying to sneak probes out, in case you do fail to break a contain. I'd say not to storm your observers but even I still can't figure out why they are so attracted to it I agreed with the expoing RIGHT after breaking out, you need this moment to set cannons up before his army pushes you back in your base. DT, island, arbiter, -> big thumbs up. | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
On October 21 2004 18:09 BigBalls wrote: lol tsu was a good kid. i was in 1st with him back in the day. he used to give me nightmares about speed lings, probably contributed to how conservative i play sometimes. but yeah, i dont care if people know my strats, they still arent going to win your 9/11 and 1 gate forge blow, give those away | ||
|
hhkx
Canada757 Posts
| ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
on LT: advantages: 1 - gets solid scout, you know exactly how much defense you need, where, and when 2 - you dont need a fast shuttle for your ledge, you can power harder after your expo to catch up unit wise with standard builds disadvantages: 1- behind early unit wise, which is quite big I think it could be worth the gamble. There are scenarios where it is horrible, but I think its a good option. | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
| ||
|
ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
get sairs... force him to pay for his mistake of trying to get drone ling so early. make him waste minerals on spores then you can covert your army to ground troops. sairs are not an impossible or useless strategy that you people seem to make it look. it can really work out. and sairs > mutas so i dont know what some of you are talking about. sair reaver can really dominate zerg if you use d web correctly. | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
sair reaver is strong, but its also really shitty early as well as probably being the hardest to control strat in the game | ||
|
iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
1.you fake a rush he falls for it (2 gate or 1 gate doesnt matter) with making sunks and lings (more than he would normally do) you already prevented him from powering drones so the sair is going to hurt his economy a little bit more + scout and you can do your little combo with dt/sair yay expand 2.when ur rushing 2 gate and it if felt great. You felt that he was damaged and you put him behind and you really wanna know his strat and pressure him little more while your exping. Strafe executes this strat smoothly <3 | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
post-rushing 2 gate then sair isn't too bad but then you have to be sure to pressure directly following the sair, your unit count should be a little above theirs because of them making a spore or two | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
if you are 12 or 3 you cannot scout across map first, you HAVE to scout the near position first, which means if they aren't their you can't know if they are across or not, and need to go 2gate, which won't be as effective(imo) if it turns out they are across the map. | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
the only situation i think sair rush is GOOD is when you have no info about whether or not they are going lair and you can get the sair VERY fast. | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
9/10 gate costs you almost no difference economically with a HUGE advantage in rushing power/ability to stop 9pool 10/12 gate you will have 3 zealots in nearly the same amount of time as 10/11 with a way better economy(just 1st zeal will be alot later) | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
if you are 3, you might have to 2 gate all the time though. good point | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
| ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
| ||
|
maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
TRavis and Balls had some great comments regarding sairs in one of the past threads. I suggest people use the search function for them. As far as sair expo beign too slow to break contain , and you get cliffed. Cliffing is really not that big of a problem. 2 cannons, maybe 3. 1 temp, possibly 2. Whats the problem? The sair even offers sight so you dont need obs as early. If you have problems breaking out of a contain its because of YOUR macro or micro. I admit that it is somehwat difficult to be macroing, while probing at the contain. Just keep the storm + 1 goon shooting to kill each lurk. Keep your obs safe and you should be fine. Get a shuttle if you arent going to lose it to scourge and harass during all this or try to expo to island. Vs Mutt with sairs. If you dont have a sair until his lair is DONE, then you haev problems about figuring out when to go sair. Its really not an issue If you see them before lair is done or when its just starting. Just get an archon and 2 cannons and hold pos the sair over ur nexus. Incredibly easy. Your not "screwed" or whatever rugbug said. PS breaking a contain isnt about one big attack. Its about non-stop killing of units with storm as soon as they put it up. | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
| ||
|
Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
| ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
well i still think its a risk ive been having more and more people with zerg @3 scout to 6 first or detour to get to my main slower while 9pooling | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
if they just have 'some' lurks, ill get speed whenever i have excess gas, if that happens | ||
|
tree
United States591 Posts
| ||
|
I_AM_TEH_POWAR
United States6 Posts
| ||
|
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
| ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
On October 21 2004 22:33 maleorderbride wrote: they blow, and bigballs pretty much agreed when his strongest point was to not need robo when you'd need it anywayI dont know why anyone bothers to talk to Rugbug about sairs anymore. As far back as I can remember in this forum he has bitched about how much they suck. I disagree, Bigballs disagrees, Travis disagrees. TRavis and Balls had some great comments regarding sairs in one of the past threads. I suggest people use the search function for them. As far as sair expo beign too slow to break contain , and you get cliffed. Cliffing is really not that big of a problem. 2 cannons, maybe 3. 1 temp, possibly 2. Whats the problem? The sair even offers sight so you dont need obs as early. If you have problems breaking out of a contain its because of YOUR macro or micro. I admit that it is somehwat difficult to be macroing, while probing at the contain. Just keep the storm + 1 goon shooting to kill each lurk. Keep your obs safe and you should be fine. Get a shuttle if you arent going to lose it to scourge and harass during all this or try to expo to island. Vs Mutt with sairs. If you dont have a sair until his lair is DONE, then you haev problems about figuring out when to go sair. Its really not an issue If you see them before lair is done or when its just starting. Just get an archon and 2 cannons and hold pos the sair over ur nexus. Incredibly easy. Your not "screwed" or whatever rugbug said. PS breaking a contain isnt about one big attack. Its about non-stop killing of units with storm as soon as they put it up. this is correct edit: you seem to have an agenda against me, which i don't see how i brought it upon myself. sure, i think(i'd put "know" but then people would start getting irate) that 1 gate sair blows. But sair is ridiculously good late-game, but it's just pointless to bring it up if everyone knows it. if you're going to try to get people to go against me ("I dont know why anyone bothers to talk to Rugbug about sairs anymore") then at least get it right. | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On October 21 2004 23:57 I_AM_TEH_POWAR wrote: imo obs speed is one of the more useless upgrades in the game. 150 gas could be better spent on a HT. Range is useful pvt for mines, and it also can be applicable in pvz, especially if the z is picking off your obs with hydra or muta. However, if he's just going lurk ling, I'd save even the range upgrade and instead focus on units. no no no | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
it's lurkers themselves that are imbalance(the fact that it takes 2 storms to kill them) | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
| ||
|
iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
| ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
(yes i agree it is a bitch, but when a zerg takes a ledge like that it is taking alot of resources/time for them to make sure u dont take it back, too) | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
and u cant expect them to be useful every game | ||
|
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
On October 22 2004 00:41 travis wrote: and lurker ridge isn't imbalance as much as i'd just say it's very very annoying it's lurkers themselves that are imbalance(the fact that it takes 2 storms to kill them) nah they arent. first of all if you decrease lurker hp TvZ will be inbalanced. Increase storm and P will be unbalanced (storm killing muta in 1 shot) Storming lurkers is only efficient when they are on cliff or when you are being dropped or early game+no ob or something like that. I've seen good protoss users get owned (draco/strafe/hexer) without any harass/drops/lurker containment. PvZ is all about experiance and feeling. | ||
|
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
Oh my god I can feel his anger...I feel my victory...bad words apear in my screen...iG.Chobo has left the game. I love ZvP. | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
guess its my opinion vs yours though and saying "I've seen good protoss users get owned (draco/strafe/hexer) without any harass/drops/lurker containment." is a way too simplistic statement i've seen protoss players get owned countless times by terrans who never used dropships, doesn't mean they don't have to be ready for the possibility of dropships. | ||
|
iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
| ||
|
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
Thing is, its all about skill and being good in killing lurkers. | ||
|
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
On October 22 2004 02:47 SW)Surv wrote: maybe adding a ability to templar, increase storm damage would be a nice option. you have to buy( research it) no idea how much it should cost tho we can discuss Would totally fuck this game up. Imagine templars killing tanks/guards in 1 shot. Did you research increase mana for templar while you are bursting out of your contain? Why not? Its very good you get templars with 80 mana while created. | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
| ||
|
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
What i meant by the last sentence is, even if there was such an upgrade most people wouldn't bother to upgrade | ||
|
maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
On October 22 2004 00:10 RuGbUg wrote: they blow, and bigballs pretty much agreed when his strongest point was to not need robo when you'd need it anyway whats the problem? lurker ridge is one of the DEFINING reasons why pvz is imbalanced. 3 cannons? what if they started dropping hydras? you're purely assuming that they're dropping ONLY lurkers, and what good zerg would do that? how hard would it be to drop 8 hydras on your ridge, kill the 3 cannons easily, then suddenly you have 8 lurkers to worry about (4 waves of 2 lurkers each, try handle that with your 1 temp). Don't want obs? i'll laugh my ass off when this ridging zerg starts dropping lurkers IN your base. If you're getting contained then you're fucking up already, i'm sorry. what does the sair have to do with anything if you are getting an archon and 2 cannons? it's just slowing you down this is correct edit: you seem to have an agenda against me, which i don't see how i brought it upon myself. sure, i think(i'd put "know" but then people would start getting irate) that 1 gate sair blows. But sair is ridiculously good late-game, but it's just pointless to bring it up if everyone knows it. if you're going to try to get people to go against me ("I dont know why anyone bothers to talk to Rugbug about sairs anymore") then at least get it right. The only "agenda" I have against you is that you seem to have a worse understanding of PvZ than I do, and thats my worst MU. If your ledge cant deal with 8 hydras with 3 cannons AND storm, then you seriously seriously suck. Don't let yoru cannons dies and USE YOUR STORM. The only thing I can understand is 12 hydra drop vs 1 temp. That is excessive. You need 2 temps before you lose sight on the cliff to deal with that. So no, im not assuming lurkers. Im simply assuming your not a retard. Also, I never said you dont need robo, I said that you can get a later robo. Which sometimes, can be key. This enables you to get range going as well as temp energy. For Vs mutt. The sair has to do with KNOWING that your oppoenent is going mutt. Something that cant be done without scouting. I still have no idea how you think about PvZ. Honestly, I'm not convinced that you think. I think you should stop posting in the strategy forum and leave it to bigballs and travis. I think you degrade from the overall "advice" level. PS claiming that bigballs and travis "blow" is fucking stupid. They, as well as myself, have higher gamei, wgt, and anything else scores than yourself. And all for a reason. | ||
|
maleorderbride
United States2916 Posts
On October 22 2004 02:56 klaasdebaas wrote: Would totally fuck this game up. Imagine templars killing tanks/guards in 1 shot. PS you get temps with 66 mana instead of 50. most fuckign definitely not 80. My god storming directly out of the gates would be godly. as it is, you can still storm pretty much as soon as the temp gets to the front of your nat. Did you research increase mana for templar while you are bursting out of your contain? Why not? Its very good you get templars with 80 mana while created. WTF? you do realize taht storm used to do MORE DAMAGE. That enabled it to kill lurks, but not tanks and not guards in one shot. Blizz changed it, but alot of people disagree with it. Personally, I think the game is just fine the way it is. SO its hard PvZ on LT, so play different map. | ||
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On October 22 2004 02:56 klaasdebaas wrote: Did you research increase mana for templar while you are bursting out of your contain? Why not? Its very good you get templars with 80 mana while created. you're quite clueless, aren't you? units with mana always start with 50% of their max energy, which is 50 without upgrade and 62 or 63 (dunno if it's round up or down, doesn't really matter anyway) with the energy upgrade | ||
|
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
there are no unbalanced match ups get over it or get better. | ||
|
iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
| ||
|
Overlord
Romania651 Posts
| ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
Sair is good for ledge d. I usually dont have to drop stuff up top to stop a ledge attack anyways. 3 cannons + storm + sight of the ledge does the trick in most cases. | ||
|
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
I get shuttle as soon as my robo completes if I suspect drop btw ;o | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
| ||
|
iD.Surv
Belgium827 Posts
rofl | ||
|
FlySoHigh
Russian Federation106 Posts
I think it would be of great use to illustrate your strategies p.s: I enjoyed previous pack a lot . Many thanks | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
| ||
|
FrEaK[S.sIR]
2373 Posts
And holding a ledge isn't that hard, some cannons plus 1-2 HTs and an obs over a cannon will hold a ledge just fine. And personally I prefer reaver over sair as a follow up to 2 gate since you can then go zealot/reaver which is pretty strong vs zerg early to mid game ground and can pressure sunkens. But that is only viable if you can assume their tech(3-4 sunkens generally means he's going mutas). 9/11 gate's purpose is to have an economical advantage over 9/10(1 probe does indeed make a difference, since you only have a few probes, it allows you to have just enough minerals to continue probe production) while also being able to get 2 zealots on your ramp in time for a zergling rush. If you haven't noticed yet, in MOST positions, a 10 gate will be too slow to block a ramp and you have to take probes off of minerals to maybe kill a couple zerglings. It is also SLIGHTLY faster than 10/12 and needs a pylon later and is also pretty versatile if you are playing against an unpredictable zerg. I think that is why bigballs prefers to go 9 gate when he is teching is because it gives him time to stop 9 pool(or earlier in fact) if he needs to. And travis, at 3 you do not need to scout 12. In fact, if you check just as your 9th probe comes out, his overlord should be just about arriving if he is at 12. People at 3 can afford to scout 6 but 12 is much more dangerous to do that from. Yup... FrEaK | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
| ||
|
Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On October 22 2004 16:03 FrozenArbiter wrote: It is always fun when you don't scout the position next to you (12 vs 3), assuming an overlord will come and the zerg is thinking the same thing =] LoL, yeah. That has happened to me countless number of times. I always end up laughing. | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
On October 22 2004 04:29 maleorderbride wrote: The only "agenda" I have against you is that you seem to have a worse understanding of PvZ than I do, and thats my worst MU. If your ledge cant deal with 8 hydras with 3 cannons AND storm, then you seriously seriously suck. Don't let yoru cannons dies and USE YOUR STORM. The only thing I can understand is 12 hydra drop vs 1 temp. That is excessive. You need 2 temps before you lose sight on the cliff to deal with that. So no, im not assuming lurkers. Im simply assuming your not a retard. Also, I never said you dont need robo, I said that you can get a later robo. Which sometimes, can be key. This enables you to get range going as well as temp energy. For Vs mutt. The sair has to do with KNOWING that your oppoenent is going mutt. Something that cant be done without scouting. I still have no idea how you think about PvZ. Honestly, I'm not convinced that you think. I think you should stop posting in the strategy forum and leave it to bigballs and travis. I think you degrade from the overall "advice" level. PS claiming that bigballs and travis "blow" is fucking stupid. They, as well as myself, have higher gamei, wgt, and anything else scores than yourself. And all for a reason. psst.. your spelling is horrid and you can't seem to be able to distinguish between you're and your. Also, i'm not seeing how the hydras can't just move away from the ledge as they'd see your temp floating over to the side. If you're losing to mut (don't know where you're getting the second T from) when the zerg does hatch before pool, you should quit pvz altogether. And please quote where I said bigballs and travis blow. Thanks!~``!23 edit: just realized that you interpreted "they" as meaning Bigballs and travis. I meant sairs. Acceptable mistake, as I did not define what i meant. | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
On October 22 2004 08:43 BigBalls wrote: But this debate isn't debating how to defend a ridge, it's debating whether or not 1 gate sair is a viable build. Sure, since we're assuming they're dropping almost squat on your ridge then you don't even need the sair's sight to hold it off until robo, you can just keep storming it anywayIt's gotten to the point where I dont even know what youre arguing about lol. Sair is good for ledge d. I usually dont have to drop stuff up top to stop a ledge attack anyways. 3 cannons + storm + sight of the ledge does the trick in most cases. | ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
On October 22 2004 04:35 Carnac wrote: FIFTY percent?you're quite clueless, aren't you? units with mana always start with 50% of their max energy, which is 50 without upgrade and 62 or 63 (dunno if it's round up or down, doesn't really matter anyway) with the energy upgrade | ||
|
MaTRiX[SiN]
Sweden1282 Posts
On October 22 2004 19:52 RuGbUg wrote: FIFTY percent? i wondered to..how is 50% of 150=50 energy?  and 50% of 200 would mean u start off with 100 energy...(without upgrade temp got 150 mana max and with upgrade its 200 mana max..)...I dont know what mana they start with but that cant be right.. | ||
|
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On October 23 2004 01:31 MaTRiX[SiN] wrote: i wondered to..how is 50% of 150=50 energy? and 50% of 200 would mean u start off with 100 energy...(without upgrade temp got 150 mana max and with upgrade its 200 mana max..)...I dont know what mana they start with but that cant be right..ALL mana units have a max mana capacity of 200 without upgrade, and 250 with upgrade and i OF COURSE MEANT 25%, damn i'm a fucking idiot but still, 25% of 200 = 50, 25% of 250 = 62 or 63 respectively, dunno if bw rounds up or down | ||
|
mazaGhal
Sweden73 Posts
On October 21 2004 00:15 Teroru wrote: PvZ is alot about timing. This is very hard to write a guide about. I will talk to FA and BigBalls and maybe we can work together for the eager of TL.net !~ (FA is very good at pvz. BigBalls beats me at pvz. And my ZvP is fairly unique, and good, if not top notch) HELP ME THEN !! | ||
|
juSblazin
United States691 Posts
| ||
|
Mora
Canada5235 Posts
| ||
|
Mora
Canada5235 Posts
Im not a fan of early sair. In certain situations its very effective, but those situations are usually created by a stupid zerg player, rather than created by a smart toss player. Reaver should be used more. Shuttles should be used more. 3-4 speed shuttles negates sunkens and containment, not to mention its rarely expected. SO underused. Arbiters need to be used more (but im assuming u people are dieing before u get a chance) Pressure/Timing is everything. U can't teach timing on a forum | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
| ||
|
rednob
Korea (South)210 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
You still wouldn't be able to pull it off instinctively, like you dont have the memory association for it ;o | ||
|
NonYold
United States2814 Posts
1 + 1 = 2 1 + 2 = 3 1 + 3 = 4 etc You can memorize these things and never understand what adding actually is. In the same way, somebody can begin to painfully describe complicated situations (ie the "1 + 1" part) and tell you how your timing should be (ie the "= 2" part) for you to memorize. Of course, in the long run, this will never be very helpful, so you must understand the operation. In order to do this, you must begin to understand the pattern. This pattern is what can't be taught on a forum. Just like there is only a fraction of people able to understand high-level math, there is also only a fraction of people who can understand timing. The fact is any decent bw player has an idea of what timing is.. and high-level players giving examples isn't going to help them. People can either make the next step through practice and experience, or they can't. | ||
|
NonYold
United States2814 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Dunno. | ||
|
rednob
Korea (South)210 Posts
| ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
| ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On October 23 2004 17:39 rednob wrote: Of course you would have to go and practice on your own, but are you saying that no instruction would get people closer to the point where they know exactly what to practice, however bizarre and difficult that accomplishment may seem to you? Basic pointers you can be told (just check the first post for that stuff) but the other stuff HAS to be learned the hard way to be of ANY use whatsoever TT | ||
|
Mora
Canada5235 Posts
On October 23 2004 17:39 rednob wrote: Of course you would have to go and practice on your own, but are you saying that no instruction would get people closer to the point where they know exactly what to practice, however bizarre and difficult that accomplishment may seem to you? are u any good at bw? | ||
|
FrEaK[S.sIR]
2373 Posts
Don't even try claiming otherwise. | ||
|
ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
.it does however make them create a lot of unnesscesary units and buildings. | ||
|
klaasdebaas
59 Posts
| ||
|
RuGbUg
United States2347 Posts
On October 25 2004 18:10 Element)FrEaK wrote: thats what all good but lazy players say. you can sure as hell teach it, it just requires a lot of teaching. elaborating on that teaching requires experience, remembering what you learned requires experience, but actually learning it does not require much experience at all.Timing can only be gained by experience, you can NOT teach it. Don't even try claiming otherwise. i'd give it a shot at teaching him a bit myself but i'm lazy as fuck and im willing to admit it | ||
|
Starpriest
United States16 Posts
| ||
|
Mora
Canada5235 Posts
what happend? | ||
|
Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On July 17 2005 20:59 Teroru wrote: the probe u initially scouted with should not die until he has ling speed. what happend? Lol what are you talking about? Any smart Zerg with corner the Probe and murder it, or you will accidently run into a sunken colony. There is no way you are going to keep your initial scouting probe alive until he is teching a lair and spire, AND getting ling speed. | ||
|
nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
| ||
|
nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
| ||
|
LemOn
United Kingdom8629 Posts
On July 17 2005 22:46 nArAnjO wrote: all i can say is, as soon as you have 3 gasses get corsa + arbiter to you army, you are invincible now =] So can you send a rep? | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 17 2005 21:17 Amber[LighT] wrote: Lol what are you talking about? Any smart Zerg with corner the Probe and murder it, or you will accidently run into a sunken colony. There is no way you are going to keep your initial scouting probe alive until he is teching a lair and spire, AND getting ling speed. Saying it shouldn't die until ling speed is a little wrong (some zergs are VERY good at cutting off probes.. midian comes to mind -.-), saying zerg will murder it even without is very wrong. But basically, if it got in, it shouldn't die for a very long time. | ||
|
nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
I could but no in WCG time =] this time i'll actually play WCG cuz i'll be in peru by the time =) | ||
|
lIlIlIlIlIlI
Korea (South)3851 Posts
| ||
|
Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
On October 21 2004 16:02 BigBalls wrote: 8) arbiters rule against ultras. If you havent seen my game against midian, watch it. stasis/cloak really really mess up his ultra/ling army. No, I haven't. Link plz | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
| ||
ManaBlue
Canada10458 Posts
Thanks for the tips Bigballs. | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
i havent touched bw since november of last year lol | ||
|
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
On July 18 2005 11:20 BigBalls wrote: it's on the site, just search for it in the replay section here http://teamliquid.net/replay/download.php?replay=533 | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
On July 18 2005 07:37 FrozenArbiter wrote: Saying it shouldn't die until ling speed is a little wrong (some zergs are VERY good at cutting off probes.. midian comes to mind -.-), saying zerg will murder it even without is very wrong. But basically, if it got in, it shouldn't die for a very long time. it's harder to keep probe alive against some players than against others. but the probe SHOULD not die until he has ling speed, at least not if he only chases it with 6 lings. | ||
|
Holorin
France227 Posts
OMG, insane game love your style (works in 1.13) | ||
|
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On July 18 2005 12:35 Liquid`Drone wrote: it's harder to keep probe alive against some players than against others. but the probe SHOULD not die until he has ling speed, at least not if he only chases it with 6 lings. Midian is a dirty 2 hatcher -,- So yes, more lings than 6 | ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
On July 18 2005 13:15 Holorin wrote: OMG, insane game love your style (works in 1.13)do you also love my name? BIGHAIRYMAN | ||
|
IAmHaSu
United Kingdom38 Posts
| ||
|
nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
| ||
|
RiSE
United States3182 Posts
| ||
|
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
| ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
someone get twisted in this thread. man clan needs to be reunited | ||
|
iNsaNe-
Finland5201 Posts
Nice game, I usually always lose my pvz to as skilled player as I am at late game, gotta try that sometime | ||
|
Carnac
Germany / USA16648 Posts
| ||
|
Fayth[pG]
Canada1093 Posts
| ||
|
BigBalls
United States5354 Posts
| ||
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
On July 18 2005 14:46 IAmHaSu wrote: Protoss loses this match up anyway. Just take t. good tip buddy, we are glad to have your strategical insight on tl.net | ||
Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
MAN CLAN STRONG : o | ||
|
Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
| ||
|
Twisted
Netherlands13554 Posts
| ||
|
nArAnjO
Peru2571 Posts
| ||
| ||
