Yeah, I stand corrected. With double cc you can make it so that your fourth rax finishes right with an upgrade build when the mutas arrive from a standard 2hatch build.

How much rines/scvs would you have to cut if you opened with something really safe like 1rax fe after second depot and when do you do the cutting to put up the rax?

edit: actually, I just can't see it working if you open 1rax fe after second depot. Just by comparing timings from different games it just seems implausible. You'd have to cut so many scvs and/or marines to get it up by that timing that I doubt that it would be worth it.

Ilikestarcraft

Korea (South)17726 Posts

November 22 2010 21:33 GMT

#22

I actually am not really sure how viable it is with cc after rine and 2nd depot. If you see the zerg powering and cut rines to add your gas, ebay, second rax then start rine production. You wouldn't need the third depot since your nat cc finishes in time which should help a bit. But even so will need to cut scvs I think to get the 3rd/fourth raxes up even with taking scvs off gas. From what I saw from the game Flash didn't need to cut scvs to get the raxes up. But it seemed his range was late and his cc's/raxes were idle when he was making turrets. Which I'm not sure if he got supply blocked or didn't have the money while adding turrets.

Might help to check out those Flash vs Jd wcg reps. He used the build in 2 games on fs and tau cross.

DorF

Sweden961 Posts

November 23 2010 00:10 GMT

#23

It's as cheesy and all in as the muta version of this build :p

User was warned for this post

hellbound

United Kingdom2242 Posts

November 23 2010 02:35 GMT

#24

On November 21 2010 07:37 Xiphos wrote:
You could just do an Effort-esque build if Terran scouted it. Terrans will be starting to turtle up but then you can just expand and go for a 3 hatch hive play.

You are mixing the sequence of events up. Effort had already placed the third and maynarded an unusually large number of drones to it before Flash scanned. So his build looked like a poor 2hat lurker all-in to Flash. In short it was not a reaction to being scouted but a prepared build. And yes that was an awesome game

SpiritoftheTunA

United States20903 Posts

November 24 2010 05:47 GMT

#25

edit: im not entirely positive, but if i recall correctly, gorush used a 2hatch lurk in this map to secure his fast third (which happened to have double gas on this map) then crushed with guardian. interesting example of a map-specific use maybe? o.O

Piste

6174 Posts

November 24 2010 11:45 GMT

#26

it's an semi all-in build, if you're not doing damage then you're fucked up, unless you're a way better player.

Neivler

Norway911 Posts

November 24 2010 13:24 GMT

#27

2 hatch lurker is not a good standard build. If it is expected a long time it can be semi-counter. I used it quite a bit when I played BW at C to B- skill level at ICC. It is very good on some maps, but on others it is very bad. Destination is a good 2 hat lurker map, Fighting Spirit also seemed like a decent map to do it on. Maps where you can easily contain the T is good.

Then you can get a fast 3rd and maybe also a 4th, and macro up hard.

Or you can do my favorite. Do a 2 hat lurker contain and super fast hive. Then go defiler and just push in with DS before he can push out. It is very all-in, but if you get the contain, it can be very hard to stop on certain maps

Also Heart Break Ridge was a nice map to 2 hat lurker. Put them behind the mineral lines and wreck havoc!

heyyouyesyou

United States323 Posts

November 24 2010 18:26 GMT

#28

its not allin its a build that aims for fast contain.
you can double expand after the contain and macro drones hard.

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

November 24 2010 19:31 GMT

#29

On November 21 2010 03:36 guMmiwormz wrote:

Show nested quote +

Take a look at the guide. Its written by a pretty high level zerg. The notion of the build is to get a early contain early on and pump mass drones by containing him.

The thing is that the style is way outdated. If the Terran reacts properly with a lot of tanks and then breaks your contain with his first Vessel, you're pretty much screwed. Even if you do get the Defiler out in time, you'll be way behind in economy.

Pulimuli

Sweden2766 Posts

November 24 2010 20:35 GMT

#30

i hate 2hatch lurker from the bottom of my heart. Probably because it has made me lose games to players worse than me, but i guess its nice for a zerg to be able to go for 2hatch lurk instead of the normal 2/3 hatch muta or 3 hatch lurker

The thing is, if you fail to do any sort of damage or get a really good contain, you will be pretty far behind the terran

NeVeR

1352 Posts

November 24 2010 20:59 GMT

#31

On November 23 2010 09:10 DorF wrote:
It's as cheesy and all in as the muta version of this build :p

User was warned for this post

2 hatch muta is standard...

Iplaythings

Denmark9110 Posts

November 25 2010 19:08 GMT

#32

its a good counter to heavy rax slow tech play, because they cant really bust your front with just marines

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

November 25 2010 20:54 GMT

#33

You can smash the fuck out of lurkers with just MnM if you're Flash. ^__^

LxRogue

United States1415 Posts

November 25 2010 21:42 GMT

#34

It's an aggressive build, and anyone saying "macro-based" is just wrong. If you don't do damage, to an FE terran, you will be behind.

I don't like going all-in with builds like this because it's a such big risk. Say you break his natural and force him to lift his CC, but he can easily hold you back at his ramp. That puts you in a really awkward position. Do you suicide a lot of units attempting to finish it, or do you sit back and run the risk of being out-macroed? You'll hardly have more than 12 drones and only 2 hatches.

Saving up for a 3rd hatch after your lurkers are out is reasonable. It will only reduce your army by a few lings, and you can be pretty aggressive while still squeezing in some drones.

sCCrooked

Korea (South)1306 Posts

November 25 2010 23:30 GMT

#35

On November 26 2010 06:42 LxRogue wrote:
It's an aggressive build, and anyone saying "macro-based" is just wrong. If you don't do damage, to an FE terran, you will be behind.

I don't like going all-in with builds like this because it's a such big risk. Say you break his natural and force him to lift his CC, but he can easily hold you back at his ramp. That puts you in a really awkward position. Do you suicide a lot of units attempting to finish it, or do you sit back and run the risk of being out-macroed? You'll hardly have more than 12 drones and only 2 hatches.

Saving up for a 3rd hatch after your lurkers are out is reasonable. It will only reduce your army by a few lings, and you can be pretty aggressive while still squeezing in some drones.

Its easy to transition into a macro build. The build is usually played as an all-in type because of the kind of hard-countering options it offers (especially when T doesn't have proper defenses up yet). If you force him to pull back to 1 base eco, you have succeeded in your goal and you don't really need to do much more other than delay his re-expansion as much as possible. You'll force him into a 2 rax tech most likely in which case you just continue to tech to defilers w/consume which should be out with 10-11 lurkers and maybe 20 lings by the time his 9:00 big push makes it past his nat (he probably just re-secured it and basically you're gonna re-take it back).

You'll have way more than 12 drones as well. Actual number might vary but its more than 12 for sure.

Holgerius

Sweden16951 Posts

November 26 2010 00:44 GMT

#36

You can only make a transition into a macro game if you manage to do some significant damage one way or another, or else you'll get crushed by a competent Terran.

Ideas

United States8084 Posts

November 26 2010 02:25 GMT

#37

here's a good example of a macro-based strategy using 2-hatch lurker

it works as a good contain on maps with tight chokes, but it's really risky. if you lose your 1st few lurker it's pretty much gg (or if you cant contain his 1st group of MnM).