EPTmy friend always says 2 hatch lurker is a "cheesy boring build that's pretty much all-in" and i was wondering about this statement and the mentality behind 2 hatch lurker. i've also heard from others that it's pretty much a "noob opening". i know these statements are kind of ignorant, but what's the basis behind them? isn't 2 hatch lurker all about setting up a contain and then teching to defilers or something? how is that cheese/all-in? is 2 hatch lurker meant to end the game or something? i understand that 1 hatch lurker is basically all-in but 2 hatch lurker still eludes me. i always thought they had totally different mentalities. 1 hatch lurker had little zergling usage whereas 2 hatch lurker needs a good 20ish zerglings to be effective.
mentality behind 2 hatch lurker
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radialis
726 Posts
my friend always says 2 hatch lurker is a "cheesy boring build that's pretty much all-in" and i was wondering about this statement and the mentality behind 2 hatch lurker. i've also heard from others that it's pretty much a "noob opening". i know these statements are kind of ignorant, but what's the basis behind them? isn't 2 hatch lurker all about setting up a contain and then teching to defilers or something? how is that cheese/all-in? is 2 hatch lurker meant to end the game or something? i understand that 1 hatch lurker is basically all-in but 2 hatch lurker still eludes me. i always thought they had totally different mentalities. 1 hatch lurker had little zergling usage whereas 2 hatch lurker needs a good 20ish zerglings to be effective. | ||
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seRapH
United States9756 Posts
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guMmiwormz
United States312 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94510 is a really good guide of strong 2 hatching. You can do the build outlined in that thread, which is fairly macro oriented or you can always go allin with it. So to sum it up, no its not an automatic all in opening. It can transition easily into the lategame. | ||
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kineSiS-
Korea (South)1068 Posts
On November 21 2010 03:01 guMmiwormz wrote: 2 Hatch Openings are really flexible in terms of being "all in" or macro oriented. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94510 is a really good guide of strong 2 hatching. You can do the build outlined in that thread, which is fairly macro oriented or you can always go allin with it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpIQibaixl4 So to sum it up, no its not an automatic all in opening. It can transition easily into the lategame. Yah.... I really disagree about the macro oriented part... If you want to have a macro-based play you usually opt for 3 Hatch Muta or Lurker. When you go 2 Hatch anything, you have to do damage or else you're really behind in terms of economy and in a short while WILL be behind in army size also. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
I only recommend this build if you want to skip D and go to D+ in like 2 hours instead of playing longer games.That being said, there's already too many all-in Zerg users at the D ranks, which is driving our Terran friends insane as it is. | ||
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guMmiwormz
United States312 Posts
On November 21 2010 03:22 kineSiS- wrote: Yah.... I really disagree about the macro oriented part... If you want to have a macro-based play you usually opt for 3 Hatch Muta or Lurker. When you go 2 Hatch anything, you have to do damage or else you're really behind in terms of economy and in a short while WILL be behind in army size also. Take a look at the guide. Its written by a pretty high level zerg. The notion of the build is to get a early contain early on and pump mass drones by containing him. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4836 Posts
2 hatch lurker is not as stable as 2 hatch muta due to lurkers' lower flexibility and inability to chase down a bio army. But it also allows for much faster defilers and less twitchy muta micro. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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djcube
United States985 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On November 21 2010 06:35 _Quasar_ wrote: i often go 12pool -> 2 hatch lurk Same, i really like getting the lings out quickly to deal with scouting and give some kind of deterrent against moving out at weird timings. Anything to make the contain easier really, I figure it doesn't really matter if I have a few less drones as long as I get the contain cause I'll make those up when I power | ||
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NeVeR
1352 Posts
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BruceLee6783
United States196 Posts
You drop lurkers in an area you believe won't be easily spotted, then you split the lurkers up and bury in various places in hope's that terran runs out of scan before he can kill all of them. If he makes the mistake of sending everything he has into his main, then follow up your drop with another one into his nats mineral line. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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radialis
726 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On November 21 2010 06:54 NeVeR wrote: it's all-in at high levels of play because if terran scouts it he doesn't have to make any turrets and his economy skyrockets, where as yours is very bad. with 2 hatch lurk you basically have to break his nat. if you don't, terran's going to have a big advantage and can move out quite quickly. Ya, I totally agree. It is most definitely an all-in if we're talking about high level (progamer) SC. I can't think of a single professional game that I've watched where a Z goes 2 Hatch Lurks, does no significant damage and still wins the game. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2747 Posts
On November 21 2010 12:47 Holgerius wrote: Ya, I totally agree. It is most definitely an all-in if we're talking about high level (progamer) SC. I can't think of a single professional game that I've watched where a Z goes 2 Hatch Lurks, does no significant damage and still wins the game. As said before, you can all-in, mass expand or tech to hive. That's what I have seen in progames. fast tech to hive: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/12374_Calm_vs_Sea/vod mass expand: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/36591_Calm_vs_Fantasy/vod Both are awesome games because calm is the brainzerg and he is awesome. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On November 21 2010 05:47 krndandaman wrote: also 2hatch muta is harder to micro and terrans tend to assume 'OMG 2hatch muta' whenever they see a 2hatch gas build. so they go something dumb like fast +1 4rax late fac and get rolled by the 2hatch lurk its a good build to mix in once in a while Hm, I'm not sure if this scenario can ever be. Lets say that the Terran gets tricked into thinking you're doing a 2hatch muta build and they opened 1rax fe gas-eng bay-acad-second rax like you're saying. In this case they can't move out early against 2hatch muta like how Flash loved to do over the past year with 1rax fe second rax-gas-academy-eng. Since they can't move out to the centre to dance with the mutas they'll have to turret up a bit in their base so they'll be on 2raxes when the lair tech unit gets to them. It's just impossible for the Terran to get up to 4rax before tech before seeing the lair units so it seems like there'll be no possibility for such a situation even if they wrongly assumed spire tech. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
Koreasilver its definitely possible for a terran to get a fast +1 weap and 4 raxes before seeing the lair units. If they wall, while cutting rines to get faster timings. The loss from the cut rines is made up for the faster +1 weap and extra raxes/tech. I know it was really popular on Medusa. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
How much rines/scvs would you have to cut if you opened with something really safe like 1rax fe after second depot and when do you do the cutting to put up the rax? edit: actually, I just can't see it working if you open 1rax fe after second depot. Just by comparing timings from different games it just seems implausible. You'd have to cut so many scvs and/or marines to get it up by that timing that I doubt that it would be worth it. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17726 Posts
Might help to check out those Flash vs Jd wcg reps. He used the build in 2 games on fs and tau cross. | ||
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DorF
Sweden961 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
On November 21 2010 07:37 Xiphos wrote: You could just do an Effort-esque build if Terran scouted it. Terrans will be starting to turtle up but then you can just expand and go for a 3 hatch hive play. You are mixing the sequence of events up. Effort had already placed the third and maynarded an unusually large number of drones to it before Flash scanned. So his build looked like a poor 2hat lurker all-in to Flash. In short it was not a reaction to being scouted but a prepared build. And yes that was an awesome game  | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
edit: im not entirely positive, but if i recall correctly, gorush used a 2hatch lurk in this map to secure his fast third (which happened to have double gas on this map) then crushed with guardian. interesting example of a map-specific use maybe? o.O | ||
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Piste
6174 Posts
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Neivler
Norway911 Posts
Then you can get a fast 3rd and maybe also a 4th, and macro up hard. Or you can do my favorite. Do a 2 hat lurker contain and super fast hive. Then go defiler and just push in with DS before he can push out. It is very all-in, but if you get the contain, it can be very hard to stop on certain maps  Also Heart Break Ridge was a nice map to 2 hat lurker. Put them behind the mineral lines and wreck havoc! | ||
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heyyouyesyou
United States323 Posts
you can double expand after the contain and macro drones hard. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On November 21 2010 03:36 guMmiwormz wrote: Take a look at the guide. Its written by a pretty high level zerg. The notion of the build is to get a early contain early on and pump mass drones by containing him. The thing is that the style is way outdated. If the Terran reacts properly with a lot of tanks and then breaks your contain with his first Vessel, you're pretty much screwed. Even if you do get the Defiler out in time, you'll be way behind in economy. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
The thing is, if you fail to do any sort of damage or get a really good contain, you will be pretty far behind the terran | ||
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NeVeR
1352 Posts
On November 23 2010 09:10 DorF wrote: It's as cheesy and all in as the muta version of this build :p User was warned for this post 2 hatch muta is standard... | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
I don't like going all-in with builds like this because it's a such big risk. Say you break his natural and force him to lift his CC, but he can easily hold you back at his ramp. That puts you in a really awkward position. Do you suicide a lot of units attempting to finish it, or do you sit back and run the risk of being out-macroed? You'll hardly have more than 12 drones and only 2 hatches. Saving up for a 3rd hatch after your lurkers are out is reasonable. It will only reduce your army by a few lings, and you can be pretty aggressive while still squeezing in some drones. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On November 26 2010 06:42 LxRogue wrote: It's an aggressive build, and anyone saying "macro-based" is just wrong. If you don't do damage, to an FE terran, you will be behind. I don't like going all-in with builds like this because it's a such big risk. Say you break his natural and force him to lift his CC, but he can easily hold you back at his ramp. That puts you in a really awkward position. Do you suicide a lot of units attempting to finish it, or do you sit back and run the risk of being out-macroed? You'll hardly have more than 12 drones and only 2 hatches. Saving up for a 3rd hatch after your lurkers are out is reasonable. It will only reduce your army by a few lings, and you can be pretty aggressive while still squeezing in some drones. Its easy to transition into a macro build. The build is usually played as an all-in type because of the kind of hard-countering options it offers (especially when T doesn't have proper defenses up yet). If you force him to pull back to 1 base eco, you have succeeded in your goal and you don't really need to do much more other than delay his re-expansion as much as possible. You'll force him into a 2 rax tech most likely in which case you just continue to tech to defilers w/consume which should be out with 10-11 lurkers and maybe 20 lings by the time his 9:00 big push makes it past his nat (he probably just re-secured it and basically you're gonna re-take it back). You'll have way more than 12 drones as well. Actual number might vary but its more than 12 for sure. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Ideas
United States8084 Posts
it works as a good contain on maps with tight chokes, but it's really risky. if you lose your 1st few lurker it's pretty much gg (or if you cant contain his 1st group of MnM). | ||
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