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Hi.
Lately in more than half PvP vods I see some 3 gate goon build, but strange enough, I didn't find any trace of it in liquipedia. There is a 3 gate speedzeal build, but it's entirely different.
It starts as 1 gate zcorez, pylon+range, 2 more gates after 1st goon kills enemy probe, then fast push w/goons.
Is it today's "standard"? What are the exact timings? What are the best transitions (obs-reaver/templars/expo)? When to expand? Is this a counter to something? Does it have any hard counters (probably DT rush)? Thanks.
Example:
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it has a faster timing then a reaver push so its really good against 1 gate expos which are pretty popular on match point. youre right, dt rush can beat this but you need to defend with your dts from the pressure before countering and on match point without the ramp to hold, you probably will get overwhelmed while his obs timing is not that bad. 3 gate goon also allows you to defend from 2 gate reaver pushes and gives you a goon lead and a faster expo with more useful production facilities (reavers become obsolete with ht tech)
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Build I use is 1 gate goon > robo > once you kill probe throw down 2 more gates at the same time.
If he did 1 gate expand, you can attack and win. If he did any sort of reaver play you can expand if safe and then overwhelm his push with mass goon. Make sure to attack while hes pushing to force him to unload reaver, then back up, forcing him to pick up again. Similar to stalling a push in PvT, this lets your expansion help you even more so you can get more goons out when you finally attack.
3 gate goon ob is a common build because with decent micro it counters reaver pushes, it allows for a fast expansion, early detection, and has the ability to pressure risky builds.
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3 gate goon is a rather obnoxious PvP build. It's very strong if your opponent gets Robo (as you follow with a nexus, and don't need observers), and very weak if your opponent goes DTs (as your obs are too late). This build is the reason I accelerated my builds (via probe cuts) so that my 2 gate goon could get a ramp contain on my opponent's 3 gate goon plays. (Have fun having more units that can't get out of your base, while I expand and pull ahead in economy.) Even so, 3 gate goon gets the most units possible without cutting probes, which is nothing to scoff at.
I don't see the incentive for any form of 3 gateway robo obs-but-not-reaver before expansion build (except as a response to DT openings). Your expansion is slow, and if you get the robo fast enough to defend against DTs, your push will suck.
I strongly prefer 2 gateway openings. Two gate nexus is dominates against any non-DT build (including 3 gate nexus, which makes me question the usefulness of 3 gate nexus), and 2 gate robo --> 3 gate goon/Reaver is the most stable assault build in PvP.
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Severedevil so cheesy 
You don't have to kill or contain everyone off 1 base 
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On June 12 2010 04:35 Severedevil wrote:
3 gate goon is a rather obnoxious PvP build. It's very strong if your opponent gets Robo (as you follow with a nexus, and don't need observers), and very weak if your opponent goes DTs (as your obs are too late). This build is the reason I accelerated my builds (via probe cuts) so that my 2 gate goon could get a ramp contain on my opponent's 3 gate goon plays. (Have fun having more units that can't get out of your base, while I expand and pull ahead in economy.) Even so, 3 gate goon gets the most units possible without cutting probes, which is nothing to scoff at.
I don't see the incentive for any form of 3 gateway robo obs-but-not-reaver before expansion build (except as a response to DT openings). Your expansion is slow, and if you get the robo fast enough to defend against DTs, your push will suck.
I strongly prefer 2 gateway openings. Two gate nexus is dominates against any non-DT build (including 3 gate nexus, which makes me question the usefulness of 3 gate nexus), and 2 gate robo --> 3 gate goon/Reaver is the most stable assault build in PvP.
2 gate nexus loses to 2 gate reaver / 3 gate / 3 gate reaver.
I suppose you mean 2 gate reaver nexus, which is stupid and will lose to 3 gate nexus because your expansions may be at similar time but 3 gate goon has better production and will get templar tech quicker.
2 gate reaver nexus isn't a great build because its a push designed build used to expand. The only reasonable follow up would be a shuttle speed, 2 shuttle/4 reaver goon push some time before your opponents gets storm.
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That build sounds pretty trashy to me. Maybe it could work on Desti where people are fond if 1 gate expoing but really you'll be out teched by DT or reaver and beat timing wise by the standard 4 gate goon assault that aims to hit before a fast DT build makes DTs. IMO if you wanna go speed zeals then you rush 1 DT + Cannon and Nexus followed by storm tech and templar pumping. Once your expo is down you can add gates with excess minerals if they are passive or cannons if they are going to push with goon reaver. Your constant templar pump is very cheap and you will have shitloads of gas so you can get enough storms to protect your main and natural with cannons support. Really once your expo is up your macro can be outrageous if you make the right decisions about how many cannons you need -- you want to be as cheap as possible without getting rolled over -- the beauty of the build is the fast dark templar, this is an invaluable scout and can sometimes auto win you the game while setting up your late-middle game macro. Once your gates are down and upgrades are going you'll explode by the time speed finishes and you can move out with map control. The only important thing to remember about this build is that you didn't spend the resources on an early robotics bay so you need to fit it into your macro cycle or else enemy DTs can stall you. Being stalled in PvP is terrible because it's a MU that heavily depends on timing. If you miss your timing window then you have to adapt because you'll stalemate and trade armies. When you perfect this build though it is a very safe imo and when you move out at 100 psi with +1 goon/zeal/temp/archon it's a force to be reckoned with before the 10 minute mark. This can give you the map control needed to take that third base and seal the game by adding more gateways and building a shuttle to storm drop harass.
Seriously it's my fav PvP build, consider what I said and try it out, Reaver/goon isn't always my style as I don't enjoy the follow up gameplay if my opponant defends my busting attack but this storm expo into mixed army is totally up my alley and I recommend it to all P users. It's a solid build and is worth becoming a part of your arsenal.
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Thanks for tossing the build out, and its pretty good but it only gives you an advantage if your opponent over commits to pressuring you. If he plays passive and expands you are pretty much on equal footing.
Anyway, the build he is talking about is 3 gate goon, NOT 3 gate goon reaver. The common 3 gate goon ob is a counter to the goon/reaver push, and allows you to adapt to any other build.
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if you want to see some 3gate...reminded me of the mana vs white-ra series
http://reps.ru/replays.php/replays.php?replay=comment&id=14338#
poor guy (mana) goes 3gate goon loses
later goes 4gate goon loses
later goes 3gate goon loses
pretty funny.
Basically 3gate goon is weaker 4gate goon(which there is an entry for), but with more probes.
Some cases 4gate goon will work where 3gate might not.
And in the cases where 4gate would not work you would much rather be doing 3gate for the better economy.
Would not say it is standard, if you want standard learn 1gate range robo 2ndgate ob reaver.
exact timings...can do something like this 8p, 10gate, 12pylon, 13z, 16assim, 17core, 18z, 21p, 23goon, 26range, 27goon, 31 2gates+pylon+goon, then goons and some probes when you can fit them in.
Best transition depends on opponent. Typically want to expo unless you need detection or more units.
Expand after your attack timing unless you think continuing pumping more units will win it for you. Typically around 6min.
Hard counter would be dt, just like 4gate goon.
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On June 13 2010 03:55 Knickknack wrote:
Basically 3gate goon is weaker 4gate goon(which there is an entry for), but with more probes.
Some cases 4gate goon will work where 3gate might not.
And in the cases where 4gate would not work you would much rather be doing 3gate for the better economy.
Would not say it is standard, if you want standard learn 1gate range robo 2ndgate ob reaver.
Thank you very much! Exactly what I needed.
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You can also play 3 gate goon as a progression from 2 gate goon, which is slightly more efficient but reveals your second gate to your opponent.
On June 12 2010 12:11 _Air_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 04:35 Severedevil wrote:
3 gate goon is a rather obnoxious PvP build. It's very strong if your opponent gets Robo (as you follow with a nexus, and don't need observers), and very weak if your opponent goes DTs (as your obs are too late). This build is the reason I accelerated my builds (via probe cuts) so that my 2 gate goon could get a ramp contain on my opponent's 3 gate goon plays. (Have fun having more units that can't get out of your base, while I expand and pull ahead in economy.) Even so, 3 gate goon gets the most units possible without cutting probes, which is nothing to scoff at.
I don't see the incentive for any form of 3 gateway robo obs-but-not-reaver before expansion build (except as a response to DT openings). Your expansion is slow, and if you get the robo fast enough to defend against DTs, your push will suck.
I strongly prefer 2 gateway openings. Two gate nexus is dominates against any non-DT build (including 3 gate nexus, which makes me question the usefulness of 3 gate nexus), and 2 gate robo --> 3 gate goon/Reaver is the most stable assault build in PvP. 2 gate nexus loses to 2 gate reaver / 3 gate / 3 gate reaver.
No it does not, because you add gateways after expanding. If defending is such a problem, cut some probes and build some of your pylons at your front.
2 gate reaver nexus isn't a great build because its a push designed build used to expand. The only reasonable follow up would be a shuttle speed, 2 shuttle/4 reaver goon push some time before your opponents gets storm.
I prefer gate gate robo gate = 3 gate goon/reaver push, but gate robo gate = 2 gate goon/reaver is also effective and standard-ish. It applies significantly less pressure, but cuts fewer probes and expands more quickly. 3 gate goon/reaver pretty much has to break the opponent's expo. gate gate robo expand = 2 gate goon/reaver nexus doesn't appeal to me, but it should allow more early pressure than gate robo gate and a similar expansion timing, at the cost of a later reaver push and more difficulty against DT plays.
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On June 13 2010 03:55 Knickknack wrote:if you want to see some 3gate...reminded me of the mana vs white-ra series http://reps.ru/replays.php/replays.php?replay=comment&id=14338#poor guy (mana) goes 3gate goon loses later goes 4gate goon loses later goes 3gate goon loses pretty funny. Basically 3gate goon is weaker 4gate goon(which there is an entry for), but with more probes. Some cases 4gate goon will work where 3gate might not. And in the cases where 4gate would not work you would much rather be doing 3gate for the better economy. Would not say it is standard, if you want standard learn 1gate range robo 2ndgate ob reaver. exact timings...can do something like this 8p, 10gate, 12pylon, 13z, 16assim, 17core, 18z, 21p, 23goon, 26range, 27goon, 31 2gates+pylon+goon, then goons and some probes when you can fit them in. Best transition depends on opponent. Typically want to expo unless you need detection or more units. Expand after your attack timing unless you think continuing pumping more units will win it for you. Typically around 6min. Hard counter would be dt, just like 4gate goon.
This will work, but when you get to higher level, 3 gate goon expand will soft counter a 2/3 gate reaver push. It is not a 3 gate goon all in, rather its a build that allows for an early expansion and puts out enough goons to defend that expansion.
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On June 13 2010 11:19 Severedevil wrote:You can also play 3 gate goon as a progression from 2 gate goon, which is slightly more efficient but reveals your second gate to your opponent. Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 12:11 _Air_ wrote:On June 12 2010 04:35 Severedevil wrote:
3 gate goon is a rather obnoxious PvP build. It's very strong if your opponent gets Robo (as you follow with a nexus, and don't need observers), and very weak if your opponent goes DTs (as your obs are too late). This build is the reason I accelerated my builds (via probe cuts) so that my 2 gate goon could get a ramp contain on my opponent's 3 gate goon plays. (Have fun having more units that can't get out of your base, while I expand and pull ahead in economy.) Even so, 3 gate goon gets the most units possible without cutting probes, which is nothing to scoff at.
I don't see the incentive for any form of 3 gateway robo obs-but-not-reaver before expansion build (except as a response to DT openings). Your expansion is slow, and if you get the robo fast enough to defend against DTs, your push will suck.
I strongly prefer 2 gateway openings. Two gate nexus is dominates against any non-DT build (including 3 gate nexus, which makes me question the usefulness of 3 gate nexus), and 2 gate robo --> 3 gate goon/Reaver is the most stable assault build in PvP. 2 gate nexus loses to 2 gate reaver / 3 gate / 3 gate reaver. No it does not, because you add gateways after expanding. If defending is such a problem, cut some probes and build some of your pylons at your front. Show nested quote +
2 gate reaver nexus isn't a great build because its a push designed build used to expand. The only reasonable follow up would be a shuttle speed, 2 shuttle/4 reaver goon push some time before your opponents gets storm.
I prefer gate gate robo gate = 3 gate goon/reaver push, but gate robo gate = 2 gate goon/reaver is also effective and standard-ish. It applies significantly less pressure, but cuts fewer probes and expands more quickly. 3 gate goon/reaver pretty much has to break the opponent's expo. gate gate robo expand = 2 gate goon/reaver nexus doesn't appeal to me, but it should allow more early pressure than gate robo gate and a similar expansion timing, at the cost of a later reaver push and more difficulty against DT plays.
2 gate expand will lose to 3 gate. There is no way you can put out enough goons to stop it, there no timing attack for the 3 gate player, he will push immediatly when your nexus goes down and he will have more goons.
2 gate expand can beat 2/3 gate reaver in the same fashion as 3 gate expand. Its just a lot harder because you have fewer goons and your opponents timing window is bigger. Thats why you should 3 gate expand (build im saying)
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United States10774 Posts
2 gate expand is not a good build. you may get your expo earlier but you are exposed to so many things and you also have to usually cut probes. your opponent may decide to DT tech after scouting your quick second gateway, go for a 3-gate-robo bust push (i don't really like this though), or go for a two gate-robo into expo and speed shuttle harass. it's not a good an effective build.
3 gate goon can be good if you know your opponent well. i wouldn't use it in a ladder game, but i like to sometimes to play a one gate-range-expo-gate-gate that is designed to counter the two gate/robo push. the game will come down to who positions and micros his units better. note that you have to cut probes for 3 gate goon though.
really, if you wanna get good AND consistent at pvp, practice the two gate/robo build. (either gate/gate/robo or gate/robo/gate depending on the map). there's a reason why this is the most standard and effective build. it is the most versatile build available.
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On June 12 2010 12:31 MiniRoman wrote:
That build sounds pretty trashy to me. Maybe it could work on Desti where people are fond if 1 gate expoing but really you'll be out teched by DT or reaver and beat timing wise by the standard 4 gate goon assault that aims to hit before a fast DT build makes DTs. IMO if you wanna go speed zeals then you rush 1 DT + Cannon and Nexus followed by storm tech and templar pumping. Once your expo is down you can add gates with excess minerals if they are passive or cannons if they are going to push with goon reaver. Your constant templar pump is very cheap and you will have shitloads of gas so you can get enough storms to protect your main and natural with cannons support. Really once your expo is up your macro can be outrageous if you make the right decisions about how many cannons you need -- you want to be as cheap as possible without getting rolled over -- the beauty of the build is the fast dark templar, this is an invaluable scout and can sometimes auto win you the game while setting up your late-middle game macro. Once your gates are down and upgrades are going you'll explode by the time speed finishes and you can move out with map control. The only important thing to remember about this build is that you didn't spend the resources on an early robotics bay so you need to fit it into your macro cycle or else enemy DTs can stall you. Being stalled in PvP is terrible because it's a MU that heavily depends on timing. If you miss your timing window then you have to adapt because you'll stalemate and trade armies. When you perfect this build though it is a very safe imo and when you move out at 100 psi with +1 goon/zeal/temp/archon it's a force to be reckoned with before the 10 minute mark. This can give you the map control needed to take that third base and seal the game by adding more gateways and building a shuttle to storm drop harass.
Seriously it's my fav PvP build, consider what I said and try it out, Reaver/goon isn't always my style as I don't enjoy the follow up gameplay if my opponant defends my busting attack but this storm expo into mixed army is totally up my alley and I recommend it to all P users. It's a solid build and is worth becoming a part of your arsenal.
Trashy. Hah.
I'm C/C+ rank and I beat a B- with it.
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United States10774 Posts
well just because you use a build to beat a higher-ranked player doesn't mean it's a good build. a good build encompasses many things. 3 gate goon is definitely viable on maps like match point where a lot of people one gate expo but you also have to realize that people fast DT to counter that
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On June 13 2010 14:06 OneOther wrote:
well just because you use a build to beat a higher-ranked player doesn't mean it's a good build. a good build encompasses many things. 3 gate goon is definitely viable on maps like match point where a lot of people one gate expo but you also have to realize that people fast DT to counter that
I know how to counter 3 Gate DT too... You have to be versatile you can't just say, 3 GATE GOON and then just pump goons like even an AI could do. NO, I know how to micro my probe so usually unless they want to delay their tech like crap I know to put up a forge and get an earlier expansion then a fast DT build. They're not going to want to delay their tech and I can micro around a goon for long enough and if I can't get into their base, watch their goon timing, it really tells you how they're spending their gas.
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United States10774 Posts
On June 13 2010 15:04 kineSiS- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 14:06 OneOther wrote:
well just because you use a build to beat a higher-ranked player doesn't mean it's a good build. a good build encompasses many things. 3 gate goon is definitely viable on maps like match point where a lot of people one gate expo but you also have to realize that people fast DT to counter that I know how to counter 3 Gate DT too... You have to be versatile you can't just say, 3 GATE GOON and then just pump goons like even an AI could do. NO, I know how to micro my probe so usually unless they want to delay their tech like crap I know to put up a forge and get an earlier expansion then a fast DT build. They're not going to want to delay their tech and I can micro around a goon for long enough and if I can't get into their base, watch their goon timing, it really tells you how they're spending their gas.
then you are playing a bad protoss. all good protoss players can and will kill your probe early enough that their DT can hurt your 3 gate goon. a competent player will not reveal what they are doing after your probe, so it will be difficult for you to adjust correctly. that's the most important aspect of pvp. if he makes it obvious he's going DT (instead of one gate expo, four gate, etc) then he's just shitty. a good player will hide his range, will cut off your scouts early on and hide every information possible. it's not the build that's helping you win, you are just playing inferior people.
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Nuh uh. The dude is B-!
I thought there was probe cutting in this build but so little mention of it.
But what would I know? I haven't played a 1v1 in months.
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United States10774 Posts
there aint no way he's B- broski
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EPT
