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The most common builds in ZvZ are 12hatch > 12pool > 9pool > 12hatch and they counter each other as we know. All the other builds like overgas into 12pool or some kind of 10hatch are all somewhat inbetween but still countered by one of the "straight-up" builds.
Recently i've seen some progamers (actually it was Calm who i noticed using it first, he didn't lose a single zvz using this build (well okay he DID lose one but he fucked up, it wasn't the builds fault)) using overpool into lair (no speed at first) and it SEEMS like there's no strong counter to it.
Lets take a look how it deals with the usual stuff.
Overpool gets lings fast enough to kill a 12hatch or at least do enough damage to be even; vs 9pool you'll have somewhat of an economy advantage, when there is a ramp you'll be even more ahead because you won't need to upgrade speed to stop the speedling pressure.
Ok now the build i thought would be at advantage vs overpool lair: 12pool exp
This things apply mostly to a map with a ramp, however if there isnt a ramp its still somewhat viable.
The 12 pooling player has 2 options, he could either get lings and pressure the overpool player or he could get drones.
In both cases the overpool mutas come out fast enough to force the 12pool to get spores.
Thats a loss of 5 drones (evo and 2 spores at each mineral line).
If lings are made overpool also gets lings and makes an arc at his ramp, 12pool cant get enough lings to kill you before mutas pop out. So if he made lings but couldnt kill you its basically over because overpool now can clear up the lings at his natural (or get mapcontrol with mutas) and expand himself while 12pool has to get up airdefence.
12pool wont be able to catch up on the muta count and the overpools 2.gas will be running before 12pools 2. gas.
If the 12pool droned up instead of pressuring you have to pressure him with your first mutas. Again, he wont be able to catch up with muta count because the 2. hatch at nat will kick in soon enough.
I will add some VODs of the particular situations i've talked about, maybe i'm just missing something.
tl;dr Whats the counter to Overpool->Lair in ZvZ?
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Hm, I really think you're underestimating the economic advantage a 12-pooling player will get over overpool. The 12 pooling player can make enough speedlings to deny expo, and just drone up, having two mineral bases. Yes, you'll have to make spores, but I think if you play it right and don't make too many lings, you should have the advantage as the 12-pooling player.
Also, overpool lings comes out quite much later than 9pool, so I could imagine crossposition 12h fast lair would hard counter the shit out of it, though, this is luck based ofc, dunno if you can pull a 12h off at close positions.
Btw, what rank are you on iccup? I'm C-, and I'd love to try to play against your overpool, since I've been having problems beating it myself (have beat it with various builds, but that was mostly due to lesser players).
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overpool vs 12 hatch on most maps is doom for the overpool player. You do not get the lings out quick enough to kill the hatch and then the 12 hatcher is far ahead. But it seems like a nice build. I might try it 
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Overpool lair cant really beat 12 hatch, Overpool speed could.
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You seem to underestimate this build.
I assume you mean the super popular among koreans 1hat->lair with super fast mutas (and maybe a sunk if you pressure them with mass ling).
If the other player 12pools, he can make a 2nd hatch in main and outmacro you. He will either pressure you with lings (and force you to make a sunken)*, so your mutas cant really hurt him, or just make 1 spore and own you a bit later, due to more larvae/better eco.
*you can ask "hey, but my lings are earlier - how can he pressure? at some point you need the 3 free larvae for your 3 mutas/2 mutas+scourge... while he can just pump lings
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Could anyone with a little more of a strategic mind inform me how this build would hold up against an Overgas? I feel like it would lose pretty quickly if the lings couldn't do enough damage. And since Lair before speed, a sunken will be able to hold until the muta flock comes out and just out numbers the other player? That is just what I am thinking.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Overpool lair doesn't get you lings fast enough to kill a 12 hatch. The 12 hatch guy could just build spores and sunkens to defend and soon afterwards, he'll have more mutas than you.
Overpool lair loses to 12 hatch, 12 pool (lings come too late to kill stuff and you have a inferior economy), 9 gas 11 pool (less gas for the muta battle).
It beats 9 pool though.
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You might try 9pool lair if you want to lay down early pressure (enough to damage a 12hatch) and then retreat to your ramp, which sounds like it was the goal. If you want to have the spare cash to expand after mutalisks you'll have to build a couple extra drones at some point, but w/e.
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ZvZ is not Rock-Paper-Scissor... You CAN get build order advantage, but it's not auto-win or anything like that...
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On February 18 2010 02:39 ProoM wrote:
ZvZ is not Rock-Paper-Scissor... You CAN get build order advantage, but it's not auto-win or anything like that...
well all of starcraft (and most competitive games in general) are essentially advanced rock paper scissor games. For example starcraft itself is basically rock paper scissor but with the added ability of scouting so you can see what hand your opponent is playing. And then the ability of changing the hand you are playing once you are scouted. Finally, the last 2 aspects are mind games which is, of course, tricking your opponent into thinking you are going with a choice that you really are not going with, and then micro, of course, which is the ability to actually throw the hand you are planning.
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On February 18 2010 05:28 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 02:39 ProoM wrote:
ZvZ is not Rock-Paper-Scissor... You CAN get build order advantage, but it's not auto-win or anything like that... well all of starcraft (and most competitive games in general) are essentially advanced rock paper scissor games. For example starcraft itself is basically rock paper scissor but with the added ability of scouting so you can see what hand your opponent is playing. And then the ability of changing the hand you are playing once you are scouted. Finally, the last 2 aspects are mind games which is, of course, tricking your opponent into thinking you are going with a choice that you really are not going with, and then micro, of course, which is the ability to actually throw the hand you are planning.
So, completely unlike rock paper scissor.
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wouldn't 12 pool lair beat this?, greater econ, and the spire shouldnt be too far behind, and quicker 2nd hatch = faster 2nd gas.
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It's not rock paper scissors per-se, but overpool keeps you well guarded against all the "normal" scissors. Everything is either soft-countered or soft-counters this.
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I think 12 pool expand ->.ling pressure will either break your ramp, or force you to build straight lings, so you won't have the money to build your expand very quickly, at least until mutas are out, and by the time your expand finishes, the 12 pooler would already have his second gas mining.
12 pool expand -> just enough lings+drones will screw you over economically, even with 5 drones for spores, and his second gas will be way faster, and you won't have the larve to break him with lings.
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Well, I'm B-/B player, so i'm far to be the best player but i have some knowledge of the match up...
-First of all, overpool lair depends a lot of spawning positions, if you're beeing scouted late, it's extremly powerful, against pretty much every build. Ofc, your opponent can try to scout you with lings but he can't be sure of the build you're doing, 12 hatch main into mass lings (even if it's rare), 9 gas/11 pool, 12 pool into hatch main. Ofc this builds are uncommon nowadays but it can happen...
For exemple, on Fighting spirit in cross positions, you are sure of the build of your opponent only when spire is at 500hp or smthg, which is already too late to adapt well...
-second, it can be easily handle by pool12 if he scouted early. I really think mass lings isn't a good option (at least on a map with ramp), drone asap, do the right amount of lings (just enough to handle an attack), drone up, spore (secure 2nd gas is very very important) and dont get too late on spire, then you should have gas advantage, and more mutas...
-Imo, what is a pretty hard counter to overpool lair is 9gas, 11 pool (which is an hard counter to 9p speed too)... You have slightly more gas, you're not too late on spire (mutas should pop when his are comming) and more important, you have your 2nd hatch waaaaay before him. You can add the fact that you kinda lead the game, cause you know he won't pressure (if he does, it's stupid), you have 2nd hatch, you have enough larva too produce lings and drones, and get an even more important economical advantage
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This thread carriers around a wrong idea I don't like. ZvZ isn't the coinflip it used to be. If you use modern strategy then the better player will typically win. This is why players like Jaedong and Calm have such amazing ZvZ performance. Of course there are build advantages and disadvantages, but just saying 9 pool > 12 hatch > 12 pool > 9 pool is like so 2004. The game has evolved a lot since then.
Overpool-gas is indeed a "strong" build. It is strong because it is very flexible.
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On February 18 2010 05:28 Disastorm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 02:39 ProoM wrote:
ZvZ is not Rock-Paper-Scissor... You CAN get build order advantage, but it's not auto-win or anything like that... well all of starcraft (and most competitive games in general) are essentially advanced rock paper scissor games. For example starcraft itself is basically rock paper scissor but with the added ability of scouting so you can see what hand your opponent is playing. And then the ability of changing the hand you are playing once you are scouted. Finally, the last 2 aspects are mind games which is, of course, tricking your opponent into thinking you are going with a choice that you really are not going with, and then micro, of course, which is the ability to actually throw the hand you are planning.
All you can get in ZvZ randomly is build order advantage, whenever it would be slight or a little bigger, but the skill still matters the most. D+/C- will never win against C+/B- and C+/B- will never win against B+/A-.
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On February 18 2010 19:42 NrG.Qwerty wrote:
Well, I'm B-/B player, so i'm far to be the best player but i have some knowledge of the match up...
-First of all, overpool lair depends a lot of spawning positions, if you're beeing scouted late, it's extremly powerful, against pretty much every build. Ofc, your opponent can try to scout you with lings but he can't be sure of the build you're doing, 12 hatch main into mass lings (even if it's rare), 9 gas/11 pool, 12 pool into hatch main. Ofc this builds are uncommon nowadays but it can happen...
For exemple, on Fighting spirit in cross positions, you are sure of the build of your opponent only when spire is at 500hp or smthg, which is already too late to adapt well...
-second, it can be easily handle by pool12 if he scouted early. I really think mass lings isn't a good option (at least on a map with ramp), drone asap, do the right amount of lings (just enough to handle an attack), drone up, spore (secure 2nd gas is very very important) and dont get too late on spire, then you should have gas advantage, and more mutas...
-Imo, what is a pretty hard counter to overpool lair is 9gas, 11 pool (which is an hard counter to 9p speed too)... You have slightly more gas, you're not too late on spire (mutas should pop when his are comming) and more important, you have your 2nd hatch waaaaay before him. You can add the fact that you kinda lead the game, cause you know he won't pressure (if he does, it's stupid), you have 2nd hatch, you have enough larva too produce lings and drones, and get an even more important economical advantage
Finally a good post. FINALLY.
Hello Qwerty, I'm NrG.Crack haha. I'd consider myself an B-/B player like you, i hit B+ 2 seasons ago, whatever.
Yes you seem right, the builds you described might counter it pretty well but again as you said they are VERY uncommon and just lose vs most of other build orders.
12 pool without ling pressure is exactly what i thought would be the strongest vs overpool lair. However as VODs have shown (i will find them later, just to lazy right now) that the 12pool player still has to get spores up. This in addition to him losing mapcontrol to mutas and a potentional ling-runby together with your pretty early nat-hatch and a good saturated main sets you in a comfortable position.
It may even be that the danger of lingpressure by the overpool player makes it so good. 12pool cant scout if you are making lings or droning up because of mutas and has to get lings. Its all about scouting information and adapting; overpool can keep droning while 12pool has to get lings.
9gas, 11 pool/12pool looks like another possible counter. Make sure to check out the latest Jaedong vs Effort VOD for this.
Gas before overlord builds want to get a fast 2. hatch and do a timing attack with the first 6 mutas.
This build dont plan to expand early because you want to stay at a low ling count and defend with a well placed sunk. Overpool however CAN get that expansion and it will be early enough to nullify the gas disadvantage. While looking the VOD i thought it was allready over after Effort got an early sunken which was a complete waste of money. Maybe if Jd scouted him right away he would be at advantage but it didnt happen. Jd would never had outnumbered Efforts mutas if he attacked his main, and all Effort had to do it to wait and let his 2. gas kick in.
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On February 18 2010 22:43 ProoM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2010 05:28 Disastorm wrote:On February 18 2010 02:39 ProoM wrote:
ZvZ is not Rock-Paper-Scissor... You CAN get build order advantage, but it's not auto-win or anything like that... well all of starcraft (and most competitive games in general) are essentially advanced rock paper scissor games. For example starcraft itself is basically rock paper scissor but with the added ability of scouting so you can see what hand your opponent is playing. And then the ability of changing the hand you are playing once you are scouted. Finally, the last 2 aspects are mind games which is, of course, tricking your opponent into thinking you are going with a choice that you really are not going with, and then micro, of course, which is the ability to actually throw the hand you are planning. All you can get in ZvZ randomly is build order advantage, whenever it would be slight or a little bigger, but the skill still matters the most. D+/C- will never win against C+/B- and C+/B- will never win against B+/A-.
Because of posts like this, replys like this and new replys I dislike the strat forum 
How does this matter at all?
Of course if a player is way better he will win even with a disadvantage, but whats the point in stating that? You could aswell make a thread like "[G]Beating D- players with scouts only"
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Overpool Lair feels like an 'imbetween' build really, it doesn't really force your opponent to do much and therefore doesn't really accomplish any task. I guess it's good for playing safe.
vs 12 Hatch it's very unlikely you'll be able to take him down and once he gets set up he's can spore up easily and go into the 'mid-game' with a huge advantage. I'm not sure exactly though, maybe on a small map your intial Zerglings can deal damage
vs 12 Pool almost the same situation as a 12 Hatch but his obviously economy won't be as strong. I don't think it's a good situation to be in.
vs Overgas you'll have a chance to get your Scourge/Mutas to his main right as his Mutas hatch but with his gas and larvae advantage you'll just get run over eventually.
vs 9/Overpool speed if they get speed you're ahead because you can just sit on your ramp and make their Zerglings useless
Honestly none of this scenarios excluding the 9 pool/overpool are very desiarable. You say it's good vs 12 Pool but I don't see how.. VOD please :p
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EPT
