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Even though mech is so much easier to play, I find playing SK Terran to be a lot more fun. However, for the life of me I CANNOT play it. Here are several problems I have with MnM:
1. I'll just get this out of the way, I feel like I always misclick. Whether it's with scanning, stimming, backing off, whatever. I'm always fumbling with the keys when I need to do something quickly and even if I do pull it off, sometimes I do it TOO quickly and some of my actions are registered. A lot of you have some problems with this right?
2. I cannot babysit all that well. Sooner or later I'll look at my hotkeyed units and see that all my marines are dead because I wasn't paying attention. I figured the alternative to this is just moving my MnM ball + SVs every once in a while to avoid walking into lurkers in my trek across the map. The problem is that it feels so inefficient and I won't be there all the time to move a little by little. This point is more of a note since I do realize that it just takes a lot of practice to get multi-tasking down well.
3. It seems like every single time I decide to buckle down, hotkey my rines/meds/SVs, and begin moving out, I'll run into a massive Zerg army that already has defilers. By that point the Zerg is pretty much at the front of my natural and I have nowhere else to run from the DS. Does this mean that I'm not getting SVs quickly enough so that I can gain map control sooner?
4. If I move out in the early-mid game with a mini-force of MnM (a la Flash's deny 3rd style), I always fall into the trap of a backstab. Is this something that I'm only supposed to do against 2 hatch muta? If so...v v v
5. What should I do if the Zerg is playing 3 hatch lurkers? Do I try to gain map control in the center and use SCVs to scout possible routes for backstab?
I'm pretty much a newbie at TvZ and I don't understand the meta-game (not Chill's definition of meta-game) all that well. Any tips or whatever you guys can offer would be great.
Here are two replays.
1. This first one is absolutely horrendous. And I pull IdrA style just for jokes.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=30825
2. Second one, my friend does a really odd build. He said he would too... not sure what he was trying but it involved guardians which he didn't manage to pull off.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=30823
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1.i think u should start focusing at doing things correctly and priority alot than trying to do everything and misclicking like hell, the speed will come by time and the better u become the more things u can do
2.before i go to my base to macro i always make sure my mnm army is gonna be fine for at least 3 seconds
either im walking to a deserted place or im simply backing away from the zerg army just dont never leave ur army standing still while u macro, thats when the zerg wanna rape u cause he can see that ur macroing
3. ok u can never let zerg get in front of ur natural like that, the thing about tvz bio is that YOU have to be in front of zerg. while ur pressuring zerg u should get a shitload of spider mines all over the map and once he has ultralisk and shit to actually move out on the map the mines will rape him. when u start getting many mines it will help ur play alot since its kinda like maphack :p
oh and if ur talking about the timings then yes, u should be moving out before he has defilers ready to move out
4. nono this works vs 3 and 2 hatch muta. the thing is just when ur leaving ur base u need some kind of scouter outside u like an scv running around in the direction that zerg would attack u from. once u realize hes gonna backstab then u get more turrets and if necessary even run home
5. defiantly go for mapcontrol. something u can always keep in mind when playing against a 3hatch lurk is that ur opponent is stupid and his bo is bad. u should be able to give him a hard time to take his 3rd. when he try push out u just stim kill a lurk then when he burrow u back off
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I'm still a newbie Terran myself but I've been practicing TvZ a lot with someone lately so I figured I'd share some tips for these points that I've picked up.
1. Play slower. I'm struggelling with this a little myself. My APM is going up and I'm feeling like I can play faster... but then my hands in the heat of the moment go too fast and half my marines are sitting in the middle of the map while my Tanks stop somewhere awkward and get picked off my zergling. :| Just try to calm yourself down and not let your rhythm get thrown off for your clicking and keyboard presses.
2. If you cannot babysit I've found you can make sure you don't HAVE to babysit. If you have Science Vessels out you don't need scan if you engage lurkers... so use your scan to keep tabs on his lurkers. If you plan on moving out to attack his third use most of your scan to check the middle of the map. Check areas where you think he might have lurkers as well as the choke to his third. If you know where his lurkers are positioned you know where you can safely move too. Make your orders to march your army and then safely and confidently go back to macro.
3. If he's getting to your natural like that you're issues are very early on. Depending on if you 2 rax or 3 rax (I'm assuming you're 1 rax fast expanding) before your factory you should move out either at the 9:00 mark or 9:40 mark assuming no delays. If you get delayed a little you should still be moving out before consume finishes (best case you should hit his natural as consume finishes). I suggest starting a game with no opponent on iccup and just practicing your build. See how efficiently you can get ready to move out with NO pressure. If you're missing your goal of 9:00 or 9:40 then it's a build issue. If you are hitting it then you are letting his harass affect you too much in game (that's usually my problem) and that's what you need to work on.
4. I don't really do this very much. The only time I move out is before mutas pop to force sunkens... so I can't really give advice on this.
5. In situations where I've seen the Zerg go lurkers I instantly place three bunkers at my natural in as open an area as possible and add a few turrets to stop him from walking in with lurker/ling (if set up correctly you should handle it if he runs in which will put you at a HUGE advantage). Get siege mode ASAP and continue normally. I personally then opt for a second factory instead of a second starport... but that's probably bad advice. ^^
Like I said I'm pretty noob so take my advice with a grain of salt. 
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(1) One thing I noticed that happens very frequently is that if you try to select units with their hotkey WHILE you still have the mouse button depressed, it will not select your units. If some of your units do not move with your 1a click 2a click 3a click, then try to slow your keyboard hand to match your right hand until you have a good pace going. This usually takes me a bit of warmup to not fuck up completely and is probably the main reason why SK terran is considered one of the most demanding tasks. You can cheat and 1click2click3lick (very fast and reliable) and only 1a2a3a (slowly but precisely) when engaging the enemy, but you need to watch your army a little more closely.
<plug>You can also play hand coordination games like Guitar Hero to get a feel for matching hand tempos.</plug>
(2) I think the babysitting problem affects the Zerg just as much as the Terran in ZvT. Lurker/ling/defiler micro is not so easy to manage while macroing effectively. I think the more experienced player usually wins the game solely on the fact that their units are more mobile, and more numerous. This is nothing like TvP: you're not waiting for an ideal timing to seige up in a great location and let your units autofire, armies will be running around constantly and the player that wins more skirmishes is probably going to win the game.
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I usually beat 3 hatch lurker by adding a 2nd factory and getting more tanks while delaying my vessels, if he tries to fast tech to defilers he'll have nowhere near enough army to fight my blob of tanks
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On February 06 2010 23:12 Catch]22 wrote:
I usually beat 3 hatch lurker by adding a 2nd factory and getting more tanks while delaying my vessels, if he tries to fast tech to defilers he'll have nowhere near enough army to fight my blob of tanks
If i scan 3 hatch lurkers and no muta I like doing this aswell cause with the money you save on alot of towers (say 8x75 = 600 mins) you can easely make a 2th gas/fac/port and still come out in arround the same timing window.
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I suppose we should be able to take a 3rd or something too as an alternative on certain maps, but idk.
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Morrow has the best advice so deff read that and do it.
1 and 2 is basically just about playing and experience.
for number 3, after watching your reps, it seems to me that you just need to iron out your bo's. it appears that your mins get out of control early on, which means that you aren't being effecient. if you're using flash's push timing, you should have about 2 groups of rines, about 6-8 medics, 3 tanks and a vessel, and be pressuring zerg's front before he has defilers. if when you push, he already has defilers, it means that you're making mistakes in your build order, or aren't pushing immediately when you get enough troops.
4 again is about effeciency. when you do push, you should still have troops at your main and building. if you are worried about a backstab then send a single scv/rine to each spot where you envision a backstab coming from, and make sure you watch the minimap as you move out, so you can quickly look at how many troops zerg has. if wat you have at your front is enough, then continue pushing, an retreat if not.
5 most zergs that do a lurker build aim for an early contain, so if this happens just mass up units and push out when they start defiler tech, and take your 3rd. otherwise, do what morrow says and try to take map control early, and keep it.
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always cycle through all your hot keys or else your marines will die
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1. are you grouping one time of units per hot key?
2. also for 1, you do have to move units around. macro when you move-command your army to a position that you know is safe
3. MOST IMPORTANT TvZ macro builds (9 min push, 3 barrack before factory, etc) should always get vessels out before defiler. if not, you are doing something really wrong. you are suppose to use that timing window to push into zerg territory where they slow you down enough to get defilers. for more aggressive builds you were suppose to have map control before lair tech, and you were suppose to use that timing window to delay zerg hive tech and 3rd gas. EITHER WAY you are doing something wrong (builds) if defilers are in your base before vessel tech
4. strong early pressure builds are pretty bad against 2 hatch if you timed it wrong and attacked after his mutas pop. if he has a control group of mutas then you should stay home and defend. also for low level play i really do recommend a bunker +supplies at the natural for sim city defense against run bys. finally, you can always sunken break if he used a giant backstab
5. 3hatch lurker sounds scary on paper, but without mutas he a) doesnt know what you are doing and b) wont slow down your macro/tech. instead of trying to map control with M&M (very difficult against lurker at lower level play) just bunker up, mass units, and do a really good push. also without scourge, dropship play can be devastating if you combo it with a front asault.
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3 hatch lurker is weak against 2fact tank push
unseiged tanks outrange lurkers which is a good thing for terran with a few scans
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I'll state the possibly obvious just because it took me a long time to get comfortable with it (still not really comfy with it):
In regards to 2, I find it's very important that you change your colors (hit shift tab twice) to green (you) and red (enemy) and watch your minimap. This is true for muta harrass as well, but especially when you have your army out in the field and you think to yourself "god I gotta go back to macro". Sure, go macro, but keep an eye on the minimap. When you see a giant red blob appear on the minimap immediately abandon macro and react accordingly.
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I'm just nerd-raging here but I feel like all Zerg has to do is place two lurkers at a ramp to secure a main, place three lurkers and a sunken to secure any other base, and just sit in the center of the map to get map control. On the other hand, Terran has to watch his ass for defilers killing any possible expansions and HAS to get map control or else it's certain doom. Without controlling the center, the Zerg can just unburrow all the lurkers he has in the center and waltz into Terran's natural and throw one DS for it to be GG.
I feel like I can't do ANYTHING.
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Well I agree that it takes alot of APM/awareness/gamesense to deal with even badly controlled lurkers, but I think once terran has all that it's up to the zerg to get APM/awareness/gamesense to stop a terran from running over him. Not that that makes your current position any less frustrating =P
That being said do you have to insist on SK terran? I'm not saying to go mech, but as I'm sure you're aware standard TvZ includes tanks with the MnM army. Especially if you're up against lurkers, even though SK CAN deal with it, you're making your life difficult for yourself. His lurker push into your nat (where he had like 4 lurkers stacked on top of each other and you suicided all your marines into them) would've been held off with just one tank, or at least it would've made it harder for him. If you really insist on SKterran, fine, but I think it's accepted that the build takes a heck of alot of all the things you still need to work on. I know I'd play alot worse than I already do if I had to give up tanks completely.
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1. Its all about practice, i agree with morrow . Make an ums with some rines and medics and practice controlling it.
2. keep an eye of your marines if they're in real danger. if they are not go and macro.
3. Scanning is a huge component of TvZ , also i'll assume defilers/lurks/etc its already late in the game so float an engeneer bay already researched to any key parts of the map or just simply your science vessel building.
I always before i go off to attack the zerg with my MnM army i send 2 scvs to go in different positions so you'll see where zerg units are
4. yeah this build is good very muta's generally. but you need to really be aware.of where the zerg will go, usually they will try to sneak some lurkers and defilers, you need to find that army and go directly attacking it, irradiating his defilers.
Or you can leave mines in your base and go to his expansion if you see him going towards you , pull back and he'll retreat.
5. I personally find SK terran extremely effective vs 3 hatch lurker, EXCEPT if he goes Hydra/Lurk combo, then it would be difficult but not impossible.
What i found out about SK terran over the years is the importance of controlling 3 groups of marines and medics at the same time in late game, 2 groups of marine is pretty difficult to kill a good zerg specially if he already has ultras.
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On February 07 2010 08:34 BanZu wrote:
I'm just nerd-raging here but I feel like all Zerg has to do is place two lurkers at a ramp to secure a main, place three lurkers and a sunken to secure any other base, and just sit in the center of the map to get map control. On the other hand, Terran has to watch his ass for defilers killing any possible expansions and HAS to get map control or else it's certain doom. Without controlling the center, the Zerg can just unburrow all the lurkers he has in the center and waltz into Terran's natural and throw one DS for it to be GG.
I feel like I can't do ANYTHING.
the thing is that you can't do anytihng at the moment it would be suicide, you need to focus on making lots of units and Vessels, focus specially on your macro and maybe drop him some marines/medics on his exps/ or base if there are no scourges.in the zone.
make many barracks, more than you normally would.and practice a lot.
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Ok, here's a better game. Although I'm not sure how good my opponent is. I actually managed to play into late game. The problem was securing expansions though.
Is there anyone that wouldn't mind looking over and critiquing?
The end is just me milking the korean for any tips.
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1.) When you hear about the difficulties in micromanagement and overall army control/positioning, the thing you hear about the most is Multitasking as the main obstacle that players must overcome to increase efficiency and overall effectiveness. But in truth, the SC control layout is clunky and can be clumsy. Sometimes when you're 1a2a3a4aing into an area, 2a doesn't register, so you have a portion of your army that isn't marching. This is something we all experience every once and a while, but they're bigger problems then this. I wouldn't concern myself too much with this sort of thing, but if it's really an issue, you might as well slow down a little to make sure every single action is executed the way you want it too. BTW, misclicks and mistakes can also be the result of trying to manage (micro or macro) faster then you're really able to do so accurately.
2.) the bigger issue is of course multi tasking. The other part is knowing what map you're playing on. If you're playing T'vZ on destination, you know for a fact that you don't want to let your marines wander too far into the bridges. Heartbreak Ridge may be a bigger challenge since they're MANY places where lurker placement is advantageous. When you're moving your terran ball around the map, there's a couple of things you want to accomplish: You want to take out undefended/lightly defended expansions and as many drones as you can, You want to pick off stray units, particularly recon. overlords and zerglings, You want to maintain map control by constantly moving and making it more difficult for the zerg to engage you. Zerg's will always have an easier time engaging an army that is stationary rather then one that's moving.
3. You should have a decent marine army, and science vessels by at least 8-9 minutes into the game, if you balance tech with econ. Defiler tech with consume wont be ready until 11 minutes unless the zerg rushes tech, so you'll have a 2 minute window to do as much damage as you can while you're at a tech. advantage. If the zerg is containing your NATURAL with dark swarm by the time you're moving out, you need to do so sooner, and put more pressure on the Zerg Economy. Playing SK Terran vs Zerg requires a lot of aggressive play in the late game. You don't have tanks to deal with lurkers or ultras, so you need to cripple the zerg's economy and maintain map control.
4. I got into the habit of building a bunker in my natural to help defend against lings, lurkers, and mutas. If you see that you're opponent is doing 3 hatch play, but building A LOT of zerglings, then plop down a bunker, and when you move out leave 2 marines in the bunker. If you're losing to a lot of backstabs, then I suggest that you maintain better map control by pressuring the zergs army/basses with your army.
5. If you see 3 hatch Lurkers, then I would suggest the following: Get a factory after your 2nd rax, and start your starport as soon as the factory is finished. Get your Ebay in the normal timing, and start massing marines. As soon as you think Lurker tech will be nearing completion, you plop 2 - 3 bunkers in your natural and fill each of them with 3 rines, 1 firebat. accompanied with a turret. The danger with early lurker play is that a lot of times, zergs will go for slow drops and try to harass your main. For this reason, I like to build a single turret at my mineral lines and keep a squad of marines (4-6) handy in my main.
You need to punish the zerg for his tech choices. If you see him going fast lurkers, then go straight to Tanks, and Science Vessels, and if the rush comes before you can get either one of those, you can always defend effectively with bunkers and turrets.
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Thanks for the post Divick, helps a lot.
Just finished looking at the replay and I can say for sure that he was bad. -_-
I was just worse.
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1) All your control in starcraft is done by clicking. So clicking precision as well as speed is an inredibly important factor for your play. Its fundamental.
What is the best way to improve ? Having a framework which will lead your learning curve. Without framework your efforts are unconsistent, unaligned, they have worse focus and are far less potent.
Framework is what you create yourself as there aren`t any fameworks on how to actually learn except rare guides that tell you something about it. Almost none do tho - they all tell you about strategies , which are useful but are little of a help to fasten your learning. Day[9] podcasts - good stuff with things like a technique of relative timings, might be very helpful for creaiting such framework.
Framework consists of what things that help you focus, align, motivate and power that far increase the potency of your efforts.
I won`t offer you framework as this is quite a hard-earned knowledge and I believe that there lies a value behind learning it yourself ( just that my framework works for me - and doesn`t have to work for you - and can work the bad way for you if you apply mine to yourself - which means a scenario worse than if it didn`t work )
An obvious and not-so-obvious hint about your starting location to create a framework is that starcraft is about attention and understanding.
You improve attention , paradoxically, by paying attention - but in a right way and direction.
Misliclicking.
Its important to pay attention to the solution of the problem. Solution of the problem contains paying attention to the problem but it is not paying attention to the problem .
So the solution to the missclicking is paying attention to click correctly, precisely and fast. If you put all your concious effort into correct clicking all game long , your every game - you will improve it really fast. If you are able to focus like that - its matter of days . If you apply techniques to it - that help to multiply the concious effort - then you are able to incredible progress over short period of time.
How you are able to focus depends on your motivation.
Your motivation depends on why do you play starcraft.
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Clicking is how you mechanically control everything directly in-game.
Its like a driving wheel, pedals and gear. Knowing how to use driving controls is only one thing necessary to get you to your destination. For a car to get to a certain place - it is necessary for a driver to also posses intelligence where to drive, how to get to that place.
This intelligence is your understanding of the game.
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Thats it.
You can judge or you can approach it with an insightful eye.
I hope it helped a bit , good luck
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