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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
Shin Oryeonggo 2.0
Resource changes:
(All minerals and geysers are worth 1500 and 5000 respectively unless stated otherwise)
Main: 9M1G (1 mineral field is 500, rest are 1500)
Backyard: 6M1G (1000 minerals, 2000 gas)
Nat: 7M1G
Corner expos: 7M1G
2/7 gas expos: 6M1G
Map changes:
- Nat slightly changed for smaller base
- Entrance between nat and main is bigger, now needs 2 depots and 1 rax to wall-in
- New ramps added near center of map
- Corner expos are now island expos
- Bridge area slightly redesigned
- All high grounds except island expo are unbuildable
+ Show Spoiler [Version 1.1] +Resources:(All minerals and geysers are worth 1500 and 5000 respectively unless stated otherwise) Main: 10M1G (8 are 1500, 2 are 500) Backyard: 7M1G (1000 minerals, 2000 gas) Nat: 6M1G Corner expos: 6M1G Near-center gas expos: 5M1G Mineral-only expos: 5M Changes from previous version:- Changed resource distribution everywhere - Added another path near center of the map - Mineral-only moved to center of map - Changed position of backyard expo's mineral/gas layout - A bit more visual touch-up - Slight edit with the bridges - 3 and 9 ramps are unbuildable
+ Show Spoiler [Version 1.0] +Despite what it looks, the minerals at 12 o clock's backyard expo is worth 1000.
Doodad at bottom left is fixed too :pResources:(All minerals and geysers are worth 1500 and 5000 respectively unless stated otherwise) Main: 8M1G Backyard: 6M1G (1000 minerals, 2000 gas) Nat: 6M1G Mineral-only: 5M Corner expos: 7M1G Near-center expos: 7M1G
Features:
- Backyard expo
- A short-cut path through the middle can that only be used by small-sized units (infantry, zerglings, hydralisks, etc)
- Center high ground is unbuildable (except mineral-only expo area (very small))
- Some area of low ground near the angular ramps near center is unbuildable
- 3x 0 mineral patches on high ground to prevent CC lift-expansion @ corner expos
- 25x 0 mineral patches @ ramps of corner expos
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/?jqjjiyjy3ze (Version 1.0) , http://www.mediafire.com/?hl0tnf2ngnf (Version 1.1) , http://www.mediafire.com/?hljztjzl3md (Shin Oryeonggo 2.0)
Feedback and comments welcome! Always accepting people to play-test the map!
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Expo layout is a bit boring atm. Imo move the mineral only expo furthur away from the nat.
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At first I was like, oh lopsided HBR. But after a while of looking at it, not so much. Interesting map, anyway.
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I honestly think that this is an awsome map
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Seems imbalanced against P in both match ups. Hard to say in TvZ because both races have good things going for them on this map, but I think a zerg that rushes quickly to defiler while getting all 4 bases that are defendable at a choke and then justm aking sure to have good scourge coverage they should do well. Zerg has the extremely strong advantage of 4 relatively close by bases with low minerals, high gas and most importantly all 4 defended from one choke.
Terran has the advantage of only one major attack route so flanking effectively is incredibly difficult. Not only that but terran can dominate the game with tank placements behind a very curved portion of the map. This positioning is extremely difficult for either P or Z to beat. However, against z, they will have to deal with the very high easily accessable gas and the low mineral count in the bases...both tough to overcome.
I think you need to provide at least 2 attack routes. Perhaps smoothing over the space between the middle of the map and the middle of the right and left paths. You could also consider moving the mineral only out more to create a wider choke area which would help for balance issues with p against t and every race against zerg. Also maybe consider adding 2 additional mineral patches in the main..or at least one to help P against zerg a bit and to giveTerran enough money to actually take additional gas bases effectively. This definitely looks like a map where valks/mech with high tank numbers would be used
I think this map could result in interesting games if it was tweaked a bit.
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On August 05 2009 18:53 arb wrote:
carriers...
If P is forced to go carriers to compete, than the map is very tough for them
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I'll test it with you when i get home
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Curious, how wallable are the chokes? Also I like the min set up of the islands, it be interesting to try hidden expos by floating a worker up the ramp without mining the mineral.
Just wanted to add: If you're going to add flanking area you should angle the main path so we don't lose much path distance difference between the main and narrow unit paths. Hope that makes sense
Also noticed in the current setup, the minerals behind the backyard's expo are very difficult to defend from mutas due to the placement of the minerals. Might want to move them away from the edge to allow room for turrets. If not then I don't think Ts will ever really take that expo first which would limit the diversity of games somewhat.
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You should let me test it too This is 128x128 right?
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
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Nice start: I'd make the openings wider and move them down more on the left side; up on the right side. Makes the map more curvy so it still takes significantly longer to walk the long way than the short way. Provides for more strategically interesting gameplay because there's very different timings for proxied/non proxied for zeals/goons, lurks/lings etc. Ie: You could do a rush were your hydras walk through the short w ay then morph as opposed to doing a normal defensive type lurker play that would require the long route.
I think if you're going to put a min only in such a vunerable location you should make it more worthwhile by adding (at least)1-3 addtional mineral patches. This might cause players to opt for it earlier than normal which might increase the pace of the game. Not only because of the additional much needed minerals but because of the critical position. Honestly I think it would be most intersting to put like 10 minerals there but with very little room to build defensive structures like you mentioned (nice idea). Might help increase the pace of the games dramatically after the midgame as players start to run low on minerals. Could be very interesting.
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Inspired by tilting your head when playing HR? Might give it a go some time.
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Terran owns on this map, 2 expo very easy to get, mech all the way tvp and tvz  . Since opponent will have a hard time getting a 3rd expo vs a terran with all these high grounds and only 1 route to each other bases.
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On August 05 2009 19:50 iCCup.deL wrote:Inspired by tilting your head when playing HR? Might give it a go some time.
You + me or are you going to dodge like always
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i play winner
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
Slightly edited the bridge
Might consider re-adjusting the resource distribution
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
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it looks like a very macro map, since you got around 2-3 expos and the large rush distance
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3 gas too easily defend able, extremely long ground rush distances.
zerg favored in TvZ definitely. PvZ it's hard to tell and TvP i think is P favored cos it's just way too long for the terran to push. although they do have an easily turtleable 3rd gas so eh
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On August 05 2009 18:53 arb wrote:
carriers...
so true
+1
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that distance is so long..
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Looks nice at first glance, but any race that can get and defend 3 gases is a little imba. The concept of the path is also nice, might introduce some creative dropship/shuttle play, but if you look at it closely, the space of the main below is smaller, it can see oncoming drops easier as compared to the above which has a little more space.
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Whats with the absolute shit responses in this thread?
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On August 05 2009 21:38 Shikyo wrote:
Impossible for Zerg.
Lol how is it "impossible" for zerg?
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It's an interesting map idea, however with only 1 choke to get 3 gasses + another if u count the island, i think it'd turn into a pretty big turtle fest :|
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
Played a few games, seems a bit hard for Protoss in PvT, quite favorable for Z in TvZ.
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On August 05 2009 22:40 Ftrunkz wrote:
It's an interesting map idea, however with only 1 choke to get 3 gasses + another if u count the island, i think it'd turn into a pretty big turtle fest :|
It's not really an island.
I think P needs to go arb rush into storm/goon/zeal with obs. Take fully advantage of the /low mins.
I think carriers are too easy for T to adapt to with 3 gases.
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
I think that expos (not the 2 expos near the main) need some more mineral fields.
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o hello there blue storm in T favored form. I was wondering when you would show up for dinner.
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On August 06 2009 01:19 konadora wrote:
I think that expos (not the 2 expos near the main) need some more mineral fields.
Thats what I was sayin
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Calgary25980 Posts
The major problem here is that there's zero room for getting around the middle. There's no incentive to do anything but jam up the middle with defense.
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heyyyyyyyyy now i like it even more
gonna play some games on this soon
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the rush distance seems almost impossibly long
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Reminds me of a Hearbreak Ridge meets Bluestorm kinda thing. Both maps I love. Looks great.
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One problem I have with this map is the fact that theres one one real route to each other's base. A terran can secure half the map pretty easily in tvp imo.
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This looks real bad for PvT. Where is protoss supposed to expand on this map after the initial three? The min only and low ground at ~1 are siegeable, and the push comes along the red arrow which will take out the bases at 7 o'clock.
There's no way to play this map on the ground as toss because if terran gets to 7 o'clock he'll control 5 base to 4. The only build I'd recommend playing is some kind of reaver to quick carrier to take advantage of the immense distance and multiple highgrounds for stalling if the terran has to attack your main.
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Needs more pepprica. Also, PM me for games if you want someone to play it with you
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What's the title mean, kona?
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I don't know, i think this would be hard in pvt simply because the terran would quickly turtle off of 3 gas and push out at 200/200 3 3 3 and ggnore.
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I think Zerg can abuse muta's here. Also long walking path no?
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cool map layout but you need to game on it so you can fix the balancing issues
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I would personally add a stacked mineral a'la destination/heartbreak on the backyard expo, so you could mine it by mid-game and provide another exit for flanking. This would also introduce the DT sneak attack and general ling runbys.. though i see a possible flaw on that where you would not be able to FE without a canon on the backside. Maybe stacked destructable buildings like Medusa?
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On August 05 2009 19:00 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:If P is forced to go carriers to compete, than the map is very tough for them
katrina?
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United States17042 Posts
On August 06 2009 05:05 YPang wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2009 19:00 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 05 2009 18:53 arb wrote:
carriers... If P is forced to go carriers to compete, than the map is very tough for them katrina?
flash showed T how to kill carriers on katrina - carriers are now pretty terrible in PvT.
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Yo, make the back nat into water.
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On August 06 2009 05:20 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2009 05:05 YPang wrote:On August 05 2009 19:00 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 05 2009 18:53 arb wrote:
carriers... If P is forced to go carriers to compete, than the map is very tough for them katrina? flash showed T how to kill carriers on katrina - carriers are now pretty terrible in PvT.
Agreed, I can't remember the last time that I've seen carriers, it must have been Rock since he always goes carriers.
They aren't terrible if you can catch your opponent off guard, but it's really hard to do that since people are better now with scouting/scanning and have 2/2 gols ready to rape your interceptors =/
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Forge FE looks hard on this map, like Carthage 1. Might want to move the mineral formation closer to the choke points. Might not matter because of the distances though.
Distances are too long. The whole map is too big in general. Smaller size would be better imo.
Terran Flash build. Protoss just dies because it's too hard to secure more than 3 expos. Zerg likewise dies to Protoss and Terran
-Mineral only: Vulture raids ftw
-Corner expo: Only viable fourth expo location, still vulnurable to drops and is relatively far away.
-Other gas expo: Either tankable from other players main or too far.
Carriers aren't that effective because the Flash build is made to counter carriers.
PvZ is like heartbreak ridge on crack. Fourth gas is impossible for Zerg and third gas is impossible for Zerg to deny a Protoss from taking.
I would make the forward natural a mineral only and make the mineral only a gas expo that is a little more defendable. Reducing the size to 128x96 would help.
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this is like. HBR + katrina
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Comments from the games I've played with Kona
Terran Mech is very strong on this map. MnM suck shit because the middle is so huge, Zerg has no problems getting a run by without the Terran ever seeing it.
The shortcut is a cute feature, you can potentially screw the protoss from gaystealing your gas by putting your initial scout on top of it for a bit. Discovered this one by accident when Kona's probe got blocked by my SCV and couldn't go up the ramp.
It's a very macro intensive map, you can hit 200/200 very easily seeing the huge amount of resources you are given.
The map is (quoth kona) "Like Bluestorm". If you rally your units to the battlefront in the middle, your units' pathing will screw up and stop them at the shortcut, so be careful.
The expansions in the middle of the map are very susceptible to storm/tanks/guardians, whatever that can shoot across cliffs from afar. This is because it is right next to your opponent's base. The CC/Nexus/Hatchery might be out of range of tanks, but I'm not clear about the map.
Carriers are quite reliable because of the cliffs around the main base and backyard expansions.
There does not seem to be enough space to proxy something in the backyard, the base is a bit too small for your proxy to go unseen. Furthermore, your opponent would definitely be fast expanding, due to the huge map.
Your scout (sent at correct timing) would reach your opponent's base around the time he puts down his expansion in the backyard.
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2 base carriers anyone? But the last time I saw carriers was Fantasy vs Stork on Outsider..
Well looks like a 2 base play can get a macroing terran off guard at some point..
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the center plain should be open ended so the players have more than 1 exit from their base. they already have a choke at their first expo. might as well be an island map ><
seems like a fun map though!
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
HUGE update! Comments please~
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Comments:
Okay, new version looks really really cool, with only a couple issues that jump out at me. It looks like getting to 4base v 4base macrofests is the name of the game, which, come on, fuck yeah. I'd say offhand that it's Z=T>P now, because of the now-an-island and bunker rushes to fuck the hell out of greedy builds. On the other hand, it looks like flanks would be really easy to execute with the awesome new center design, especially with zeals/lings. The air distance is a lot shorter than the ground distance, and the latter winds all over the place, so sairs/wraiths/mutas could rape. I'd love to see how it would play out - please stream your playtests if possible, or let me know so I can obs or something!
Questions:
Can vultures fit across the ramp shortcuts?
Is there room on top of the ramp shortcuts to drop a large unit (specifically thinking ultra here)?
Am I the only one who thinks this looks incredibly cool for mirrors, regardless of its relative balance?
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
Questions:
Can vultures fit across the ramp shortcuts?
Is there room on top of the ramp shortcuts to drop a large unit (specifically thinking ultra here)?
Am I the only one who thinks this looks incredibly cool for mirrors, regardless of its relative balance?
Nope
Yes
Maybe :p
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Expos at 3 and 9 would look better/work better.
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
I think it's quite balanced now
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Nonsense. It's imbalanced 2:0 KvS
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aw i liked 1.1
kona your maps are getting better and better
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Wow this looks so much better now.
When my training partner gets his computer fixed I'll be sure to test this one out
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On August 06 2009 05:20 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2009 05:05 YPang wrote:On August 05 2009 19:00 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 05 2009 18:53 arb wrote:
carriers... If P is forced to go carriers to compete, than the map is very tough for them katrina? flash showed T how to kill carriers on katrina - carriers are now pretty terrible in PvT.
so technically now katrina is a Terran map, cuz all i remember was carriers was imba there.
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Calgary25980 Posts
Now there's no good fourth base for anyone and there aren't enough bases. You need one in between the current main and the current fourth base.
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Would widening that small path a bit so that all size units could fit through, but not in clusters maybe alleviate some issues? It still seems like that if you can defend one front, you can easily hold 4 bases, as long as you prepare a bit for little drop plays and such.
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try making that small bridge that gives access to the center a little bit bigger
also every 1vs1 style map in bw always has to have least 4 ground exps (think about peaks, blue storm, paranoid android, heatbreak etc. etc.), by having this exp layout z would just get destroyed in zvt and zvp lategame
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Map makers must really hate terran race D:
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Fourth gas is still ridiculously far away. I stand by my previous points.
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
On August 07 2009 01:41 Chill wrote:
Now there's no good fourth base for anyone and there aren't enough bases. You need one in between the current main and the current fourth base.
Yeah I felt that the map was slightly empty around the 3/9 area, thinking of where to add another expansion.
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Looking way better
I also think 3/9 area looks kinda desolate now. How about aadding some SIEGEABLE/STORMABLE/LURKERABLE expos?
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100% terran map
Even though you say carriers, you can't have more bases than terran really.
3 bases cheap, island is easy to defend too.
Zerg is doomed.
T>P>Z
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
Considering changing the corner expos to non-island expos...
Did a rough update draft (not uploaded yet), where there is a mineral-only expo at 3/9
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On August 06 2009 12:46 ghostWriter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2009 05:20 GHOSTCLAW wrote:On August 06 2009 05:05 YPang wrote:On August 05 2009 19:00 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:On August 05 2009 18:53 arb wrote:
carriers... If P is forced to go carriers to compete, than the map is very tough for them katrina? flash showed T how to kill carriers on katrina - carriers are now pretty terrible in PvT. Agreed, I can't remember the last time that I've seen carriers, it must have been Rock since he always goes carriers. They aren't terrible if you can catch your opponent off guard, but it's really hard to do that since people are better now with scouting/scanning and have 2/2 gols ready to rape your interceptors =/
The last time I saw carriers was Jangbi vs Flash on Destination not too long ago. =)
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I like the middle layout.....
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I think this is a really good map to reaver sair on. You can get 4 easy bases with reaver sair and that's just calling for reaver/sair/dt/carrier ownage.
Think about it. Look at the available bases. At most, zerg can take 4 bases. One of those is really far away from the others by land and it's like impossible to defend from reaver/sair.
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
This is the change I am considering...
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On August 07 2009 17:41 konadora wrote:This is the change I am considering...
That was what I was talking about.
The map cycle now looks more complete and the bases are at a good level.
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In my opinion, a map that has only one route to reach a destination, particularly from the main to the other, is extremely terran favoured. PvT looks impossibly hard on this map if terran can push well in this map.
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51438 Posts
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With regards to TvZ
The Terran appears to have to go mech because of the gas easily available. With MnM it is really tough to play on this map that has so many line of sight doodads (cliffs as well).
The harass spots I highlighted are really good for drops, even a slow lurker drop. The map will be very expansion/macro heavy still because of the easy gas for all races.
The 4th expo should arguably be in one of the corners, instead of the wide open area to the left and right sides of the map (in blue). After kona changed the map the flanking opportunities for the opponent means the Terran player will not be able to pick up either east or west expo (depending on his starting location)
Which brings me to TvP or TvT
Rallying to that point will reinforce the positions very well. The main ramp further away from your base will be where the opponent puts pressure, if you have taken the expo. However, when the game progresses further, you will find in PvT or TvT, the opponent will want to drop your base (you to him as well) or recall (utterly gay too) and break the ramp closer to your main, so as to cut off your reinforcement route.
I'd like to see two experienced T players go against each other on this map. I haven't analysed PvZ on this map just yet because I know crud about that matchup (other than it's nearly as fun as TvZ)
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
On August 07 2009 20:48 GTR wrote:
very peaksy feel
because of all the routes now?
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United States42573 Posts
3 gas for the first 3 base is too much when they're this easily takable. Unless you Loki it up by putting only 1k gas in the back geyser I don't see this being too balanced.
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
On August 08 2009 02:07 Kwark wrote:
3 gas for the first 3 base is too much when they're this easily takable. Unless you Loki it up by putting only 1k gas in the back geyser I don't see this being too balanced.
It's 2k gas though
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imo you can close off those ramps in c
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konadora
Singapore66158 Posts
On August 08 2009 02:13 iamtt1 wrote:
imo you can close off those ramps in c
c?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1313/2shinoryeonggo20.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/6379/2oryeonggo11.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6114/2oryeonggo.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img197.imageshack.us/i/tvpt.png/)
![[image loading]](http://i32.tinypic.com/2vvm002.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5198/2shinoryeonggo21.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3949/oryeonggo.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7086/oryeonggopvt.jpg)
