So wait, do they only play the final ace match if the final scores are exactly tied (Hite winning 4-3, then CJ winning 4-3) or do they play it if each team wins an overall match?
On July 13 2009 22:08 Origami wrote: So wait, do they only play the final ace match if the final scores are exactly tied (Hite winning 4-3, then CJ winning 4-3) or do they play it if each team wins an overall match?
overall match (would sound weird if other team wins 4-0 and next set they win 1 game and it would end there )
Netizen comments! - by konadora - Looks like Samsung will lose to STX based on maps alone hahahaha - Oh.. Andromeda is being used - Colosseum, Andromeda and Neo Harmony is all being used... - Glad to see Andromeda and Colosseum 2 back hahaahaha but Neo Harmony is bad for TvZ so it's a good thing Shin Chupung-Ryeong isn't used keke Ah... But they should have used Tau Cross - Looks like finals will be Hite vs SKT1 - I think Neo Harmony is better than Tau Cross - Ace match is only in the second set? Well, since they split it into two sets... - Why did Hite take out Outsider? Leta is autowin on that map... why... - Looks like they wanted to put Leta on God's Garden but CJ took out God's Garden... looks like Horang2 for Destination and HakSoo or herb for Neo Medusa... - Hwasin please don't come out on Heartbreak Ridge... - THEY JUST PUT IN ALL THE ANTI-TOSS MAPS KEKEKEKEKEKEKKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKEKE - Jangbi vs July / Leta vs EffOrt - Hope they reveal the entries on the day itself.. or don't reveal like ace matches...
On July 13 2009 22:08 Origami wrote: So wait, do they only play the final ace match if the final scores are exactly tied (Hite winning 4-3, then CJ winning 4-3) or do they play it if each team wins an overall match?
If both teams 4-0 each other or something, then technically yes, an ace match should appear. I'm still confused by the format.
OO? BO15 lol...More matches is going to be more epic anyways, but I do think Khan is pretty much fucked in this format as STX has a stacked line up of players they can send out to win: Bogus,Hwasin,Notice,Modesty,Calm,Hero,July,YoonJoong,Kal
STX's line up is deep, well experienced and highly trained, and them losing in a bo15 format is IMPOSSIBLE at this stage, the only chance Khan has is if they snipe well, and knowing their capabilities and how they performed in previous playoffs January does a good job of sniping and getting the best out of their players. This should be quite epic. Oz loses out a lot in this format too, Jaedong has to prepare for 2 matches + 2 ace matches, and we all know how thick the rest of Oz's line up is, with preparation time like this I expect any team out of the 4 to knock them out in the semis with ease.
Edit: Isnt it kind of weird CJ vetoing Gods Garden twice when they have Kwanro,Effort in the line up? Thats kind of weird to me. I can understand Khans decision since they have only 1 Zerg and he is not good enough, but vetoing Gods Garden is a questionable decision for CJ, who knows, maybe they are saving up some builds for later.
I think this is because the two shows were fighting for who gets to broadcast it live, since both don't want to be broadcasting the same match at the same time for some reason. This is more of a compromise reached by the two broadcasting powers, not really has to do much with Kespa
On July 13 2009 22:10 ArvickHero wrote: I think this is because the two shows were fighting for who gets to broadcast it live, since both don't want to be broadcasting the same match at the same time for some reason. This is more of a compromise reached by the two broadcasting powers, not really has to do much with Kespa
And for fans we will see more games and more intense fighting. If it goes to ace match, it will be more epic as choosing ace player is so important
On July 13 2009 22:10 ArvickHero wrote: I think this is because the two shows were fighting for who gets to broadcast it live, since both don't want to be broadcasting the same match at the same time for some reason. This is more of a compromise reached by the two broadcasting powers, not really has to do much with Kespa
And for fans we will see more games and more intense fighting. If it goes to ace match, it will be more epic as choosing ace player is so important
I was confused just looking at fomos' schedule - thanks for the clarification. I probably won't attend STX/Khan, but will photograph CJ/Hite unless anyone objects.
On July 13 2009 22:22 p4NDemik wrote: Is this just for this round? Are we going to have to deal with this nonsense for the entire playoffs?
Entire playoffs.
Which also bodes this question, will they play all sets out? Because if a team wins 4-0, then wins the first set of the next game, will they play it out, even though they have already won?
This is just ... so the grand finals won't even be finished in one day's worth of games .. my brain is trying to comprehend this but it's just all so illogical.
On July 13 2009 22:22 p4NDemik wrote: Is this just for this round? Are we going to have to deal with this nonsense for the entire playoffs?
Entire playoffs.
Which also bodes this question, will they play all sets out? Because if a team wins 4-0, then wins the first set of the next game, will they play it out, even though they have already won?
But I wasn't sure this was clarified. How do they play this? First to four wins the Bo7? Then the next Bo7 occurs? I mean, is this all a Bo15 in two parts? Do you need 8 to win? I'm not sure anyone is on the same page here.
On July 13 2009 22:22 p4NDemik wrote: Is this just for this round? Are we going to have to deal with this nonsense for the entire playoffs?
Entire playoffs.
Which also bodes this question, will they play all sets out? Because if a team wins 4-0, then wins the first set of the next game, will they play it out, even though they have already won?
Yeah, the quality of the games is going to be so much less than they could have been, and with the matches being stretched out like this it's just not going to feel as dramatic as it could if they just did it in one Bo7 set. OGN/MBC politics and KeSPA negotiating ftl.
It seems like if one day a team wins 4-0, and second day the other team wins 4-3, it will go to ace game. Otherwise, if one team goes 4-0 in first day, on the second day they might have to play only one game, which is bad for the television streaming on the second day:-)
At the same time, if the game goes to ace, the TV streaming on second day will have the advantage. It is weird.. Still I fail to find a better solution to make happy both televisions:-)
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
There's 7 maps to be played on per set, and there's two sets.
It's basically a Bo2 of Bo7s
Exactly, Oz just needs to win 1 set, with 2 players fluking it, which is quite possible, then JD cleans up in the final ace match if the sets are tied. So JD needs to win 2 games in 1 day and 2 Oz guys need to fluke it in one day, then JD cleans up in final day by winning Ace match. I see it, Jaedong winning PL + Golden Mouse would be epic.
On July 13 2009 22:16 SuperArc wrote: wow, zerg heavy CJ is thumbing down God's Garden o.o
God's Garden is a tough map for zerg against really strong terrans.
have you ever made a post that isnt wrong?
Ha ha ha.
Oz is fucked in this format for sure. They are the most shallow team in the league. (That sounds kind of wierd, lol... I mean in terms of being opposite of deep)
On July 13 2009 22:16 SuperArc wrote: wow, zerg heavy CJ is thumbing down God's Garden o.o
God's Garden is a tough map for zerg against really strong terrans.
have you ever made a post that isnt wrong?
Ha ha ha.
Oz is fucked in this format for sure. They are the most shallow team in the league. (That sounds kind of wierd, lol... I mean in terms of being opposite of deep)
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
On July 13 2009 22:16 SuperArc wrote: wow, zerg heavy CJ is thumbing down God's Garden o.o
God's Garden is a tough map for zerg against really strong terrans.
have you ever made a post that isnt wrong?
Ha ha ha.
Oz is fucked in this format for sure. They are the most shallow team in the league. (That sounds kind of wierd, lol... I mean in terms of being opposite of deep)
/facepalm
indeed, humonguos facepalm at for_the_swarm. As is described on the last page, this is better for Oz if jaedong has awakened on the right side, they get 2 bo7 to scrape 2 wins from random players on the same day to claim victory.
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
wait really? this is bullshit...
Not much different from a regular Bo7 where only two people besides JD need to win.
On July 13 2009 22:16 SuperArc wrote: wow, zerg heavy CJ is thumbing down God's Garden o.o
God's Garden is a tough map for zerg against really strong terrans.
have you ever made a post that isnt wrong?
Well, it's an easy assumption to make just looking at the stats - 13-13 in the MU according to tlpd.
Doing a little more poking around, it's 10-10 in Proleague, and the only qualifier is that most of the Zergs who lost are bad-to-mediorce Zergs playing decent-to-good Terrans.
So I'd say yes, GG can pose some problems (for a bad Zerg?) against a strong Terran - it's a Zerg-favored map, not a Zerg auto-win map (Battle Royale what?).
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
wait really? this is bullshit...
Not much different from a regular Bo7 where only two people besides JD need to win.
Yeah but this time Oz gets two chances + the ability to awaken angry Jaedong after JD or Oz fail.
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
wait really? this is bullshit...
Not much different from a regular Bo7 where only two people besides JD need to win.
getting 2 bo7:s to accomplish it is clearly a buff...
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
On July 13 2009 22:16 SuperArc wrote: wow, zerg heavy CJ is thumbing down God's Garden o.o
God's Garden is a tough map for zerg against really strong terrans.
have you ever made a post that isnt wrong?
Well, it's an easy assumption to make just looking at the stats - 13-13 in the MU according to tlpd.
Doing a little more poking around, it's 10-10 in Proleague, and the only qualifier is that most of the Zergs who lost are bad-to-mediorce Zergs playing decent-to-good Terrans.
So I'd say yes, GG can pose some problems (for a bad Zerg?) against a strong Terran - it's a Zerg-favored map, not a Zerg auto-win map (Battle Royale what?).
which is why its utterly retarded to try to judge anything off stats, especially a 26 game pool its massively z favored. ya if ptak plays against flash its gonna seem pretty tough zvt. not otherwise.
I am honestly confused by why anyone thinks this is a good idea. Extend the match to a Bo7 for playoffs, fine. Less flukey, favors the deeper teams, etc. it's a great idea.
This? Much as I understand that the stations would argue over who gets to cast what...
1) Don't the teams get any say in this? I can't imagine this is making anybody happy, especially CJ (MSL), SK (MSL, OSL), hite (OSL). In fact, given that last one, I'd half expect hite to just throw the games so they've got the practice time back.
2) If this is a KeSPA scheme, KeSPA goes back in the PR this month.
3) WIth this many games to play, in the middle of meaningful individual league games, these games are going to be terrible. Too much play for bad players. On the other hand, KHAN suddenly looks to have a shot - nothing else to practice for.
4) A normal week of PL, 12 teams playing, has up to 50 games, minimum 30. Up to 30 games, minimum 16, for four teams? You have got to be kidding me.
5) Suspense? What suspense? Saturday's games... don't really matter.
I guess you can try to justify it by a comparison to Champion's League football or whatever, but that's sort of different, given the whole bit where it's possible to win there with an aggregate 1-0.
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
What? In this situation Oz would lose =/
.... I'm confused now. You're implying they take aggregate score into account?
two BO7 sounds nice for the fans, a bit concerned that some players will have too many games to play and the games would suffer from it though just like Musoeun above said.. i see STX winning KHAN easily with their depth.. Hite vs CJ is a hard one to predict though.
I dont like that format .. bo3 of bo7 would be better then one stupid ace match, but skt1 can surely take one bo7 and have 2 s-class players as choices for ace match
On July 14 2009 00:18 oshibori_probe wrote: And to think that 2 years ago or so it went 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 Ace
Actually it was last season and it went 1v1 1v1 2v2 1v1 1v1 2v2 ace...
I can't say I necessarily like this new thing, but I don't really "dislike" it... I just wish the grand finals was a single Bo7 (or even Bo9 if they really wanted the extra coverage, 2 players can play twice or something - including the ace), so that it is really quite dramatic. Just imagine the pressure that this puts on the players that would potentially play the final ace/tiebreak matches though... holy shit.
I'm not crazy about this format because it requires people to play a lot (especially with the individual leagues running). That said, I think it would be kind of neat to have a bo3/5 whatever set of matches, following other sports' playoffs (baseball, basketball, hockey, etc.). They can still get plenty of drama in those series; I don't see why there should be anything wrong in principle with doing something similar in sc. (Again, I still think there are some things wrong with the actual format in practice.)
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
That sounds pretty bullshit but I don't think it's TOO unfair if you think about it. If something like that really happens, if gives the other team 3 chances to take down Jaedong instead of 2 for the regular format. Winning 1/3 games against JD (when he isn't in angry mode) isn't that hard, especially when you can have 3 separate players preparing cheese builds.
That is all I can possibly fathom right now. At first it's like "Oh cool! More games." Then you think about it. Then you think about timing. Then you think about depth. Then your thought process is "Oh holy fuck".
By the way: Aren't PL rosters 12? So wouldn't they have to use EVERY PLAYER on their roster in the playoffs?
On July 14 2009 00:18 oshibori_probe wrote: And to think that 2 years ago or so it went 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 Ace
Actually it was last season and it went 1v1 1v1 2v2 1v1 1v1 2v2 ace...
I can't say I necessarily like this new thing, but I don't really "dislike" it... I just wish the grand finals was a single Bo7 (or even Bo9 if they really wanted the extra coverage, 2 players can play twice or something - including the ace), so that it is really quite dramatic. Just imagine the pressure that this puts on the players that would potentially play the final ace/tiebreak matches though... holy shit.
LETA FTW(s)!!!
This is not good. By any stretch of the imagination.
Also, there have been teamleagues in the past that used 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 Ace. Proleague did that until 2006.
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
What? In this situation Oz would lose =/
.... I'm confused now. You're implying they take aggregate score into account?
Exactly.
If set scores are tied, a single ace match will decide who advances to the next round.
Strongly implies that whomever has the better set score wins
On July 14 2009 00:18 oshibori_probe wrote: And to think that 2 years ago or so it went 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 Ace
Actually it was last season and it went 1v1 1v1 2v2 1v1 1v1 2v2 ace...
I can't say I necessarily like this new thing, but I don't really "dislike" it... I just wish the grand finals was a single Bo7 (or even Bo9 if they really wanted the extra coverage, 2 players can play twice or something - including the ace), so that it is really quite dramatic. Just imagine the pressure that this puts on the players that would potentially play the final ace/tiebreak matches though... holy shit.
LETA FTW(s)!!!
Actually, 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 ACE was the norm from 2004-2006 then they changed in 2007 to the format your described
1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 1v1 2v2 ACE was a bit too 2v2 heavy for something that is a 1v1 game more than anything else, but I really loved 1v1 1v1 2v2 1v1 1v1 2v2 Ace
Wow this format is confusing and unfair IMO. If the series is tied 1-1, a SINGLE ACE Match will decide the winner? Thats ridiculious, it just gives a huge chance for OZ to win the finals with their inconsistent lineup (Of course JD will make OZ look good).
I wonder if July will be playing for STX vs Khan. It's pretty clear that he has not been playing in PL at all to focus on the GSL, but STX would really benefit from his ZvP vs Khan.
Combined with the fact that all the cool players will have to prep for multiple matches - expect Leta/Effort's OSL/MSL play to go down, should either of them play that far.
Playing this many matches really gives an edge to SKT1 and Lecaf, given that they get weeks to rest for it and stuff.
On July 14 2009 04:35 thunk wrote: Combined with the fact that all the cool players will have to prep for multiple matches - expect Leta/Effort's OSL/MSL play to go down, should either of them play that far.
Playing this many matches really gives an edge to SKT1 and Lecaf, given that they get weeks to rest for it and stuff.
Wow thats a brutal schedule on the players...having to prepare for 2 matches in 2 straight days, with the best players preparing for ACE match as well. That and toss in the fact that some of the maps aren't even the same both days, and you get a really heavy burden on the star players for each team. They should have at least given one day rest between the two matches to be more fair to the players.
man whatever team has the fewest players in leagues is going to have the biggest advantage (so i think khan since all their players are out of the leagues right?).
Since all HITE players are in the same side of the bracket and guarenteed an OSL finalist, maybe the coaches will just make them practice exclusively for PL instead lol.
On July 14 2009 05:38 Ideas wrote: man whatever team has the fewest players in leagues is going to have the biggest advantage (so i think khan since all their players are out of the leagues right?).
Since all HITE players are in the same side of the bracket and guarenteed an OSL finalist, maybe the coaches will just make them practice exclusively for PL instead lol.
I think Hite and Khan have the best chances to win in the long run too, but fortunately they are going to get kicked out by CJ and STX before the heavy SL schedules (bo5s) start. :p
if khan takes it to ace against STX it will be such a rock-paper-scissors (at least moreso than most teams that play). any zerg from STX should take out jangbi/stork, but firebathero stands a good chance vs calm/hero/july, but kal is hugely favored over FBH but might not be as good a choice vs jangbi vs stork.
but in the end it'll probably be calm beating whoever khan sends out.
Minimum 8 games and max 15 over the course of two days is insane.
This format really punishes oz though. Will Hwaesung actually make Jaedong practice for 5 proleague matches? Maybe they will field Hiya in the first bo7 ace match but this looks like hell.
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
What? In this situation Oz would lose =/
.... I'm confused now. You're implying they take aggregate score into account?
If set scores are tied, a single ace match will decide who advances to the next round.
Strongly implies that whomever has the better set score wins
Well yeah it does... if you also ignore the rest of the post. What he actually said was:
On July 13 2009 22:02 GTR wrote: So basically, each playoff will consist of two games for each of the teams, one on each channel, Bo7, normal format.
If set scores are tied, a single ace match will decide who advances to the next round.
Think about it; to count up each game you'd have to play all 6 matches regardless. Otherwise it's unfair because some players wouldn't get to play. But if you play all 6 games... it's not a Bo7. Also if you're counting all the games anyway... what's the point in the decider on the first day?
When you think about... what you suggested doesn't make any sense at all.
This is so damn confusing. Why can't they just split up the first 2 matches, then both cast the semifinals and finals. Wasn't that how they did it a year ago?
Closer: AndromedaCalm vs firebathero - I think Calm can take down either of the KHAN protoss on this map so either great or firebathero would come out. I'm thinking they would prefer a veteran so FBH it is.
Closer: AndromedaCalm vs firebathero - I think Calm can take down either of the KHAN protoss on this map so either great or firebathero would come out. I'm thinking they would prefer a veteran so FBH it is.
Closer: AndromedaCalm vs firebathero - I think Calm can take down either of the KHAN protoss on this map so either great or firebathero would come out. I'm thinking they would prefer a veteran so FBH it is.
nice try, but here's my predictions
set1: hero vs Jangbi set2: shuttle vs great set3: July vs firebathero set4: Hwasin vs Miracle set5: Calm vs Odin set6: Kal vs Stork
On July 14 2009 09:15 TwoStep wrote: ...who couldn't play PvZ. And there once was gamer named July who spawned two proteges in Calm and by.hero.
This isnt an individual league, and July is not a player who typically does well in important proleague matches.
We are looking at a map that hasnt been looked at for a fair amount of time, and the playstyles have changed slightly. That been said, while stork may struggle with PvZ, he does not struggle with maps that favor sair reaver and long games.
Stork has always been a force to be reckoned with in proleague, (and this guy is a dinosaur mind you). Stork easily tops Samsung Khan's roster and if you doubt his PvZ abilities on andro go watch him vs GGPlay on it, its pretty eye opening.
Day1: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz Fail Game 5: Game 6: Oz lose the first day
Day2: Game 1: Oz Fail Game 2: Oz Fail Game 3: Oz Fail Game 4: Oz fluke a win Game 5: Oz fluke a win Game 6: Jaedong wins Closer: Jaedong wins Ace: Jaedong wins.... Oz CLAIM TRIUMPHANT "TEAM" VICTORY
wait really? this is bullshit...
On the plus side, Jaedong could play Bisu 3 times in a row assuming Oz makes it into the finals
Ugh, this format just devalues each match. The games won't be nearly as cool.
Why they didn't just split the matches and both offer coverage of the grand final? Or they could just both broadcast everything. This is really retarded.
I don't understand why everyone is complaining about the format. First of all, it's NOT a best of 15 or 16 or some crap. It's 2 x BO7. If one team wins both BO7 (whether by 4-0 or 4-3 or whatever) you win the match. If the two teams split the two BO7, it goes to one final super epic ace match to decide it all.
Basically, depth of line-up is a bit more important, since the players a team would normally send might need to play twice, but honestly, even teams with more depth might very well end up sending their best 6 players twice anyway, rather than go deeper into their lineup to pull out average players, so it's not like teams like OZ are gonna be at too much of a disadvantage vs a standard 1 x BO7.
It makes the final ACE match super super imbalanced important of course and this actually gives teams like OZ with an S-class player an advantage.
So, in my opinion, this format is fine and balanced, and provides us with more games. + the chance for multiple ace matches. + how epic would a final ace match between like Effort/Jaedong or Jaedong/Bisu, etc. be.
On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote: wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden?
CJ's Zergs all have ZvZ as their worst matchup. On the other hand, it's not worth sending anything but a Zerg on God's Garden (although maybe Iris could take a game... maybe). Simple solution: get rid of the map.
The more I think about this, the more I don't like it. I'm coming the grips with the double-set idea - after all, many other sports use a multiple game playoff format. But if it's multiple games, then preferably I'd like to see multiple Bo5s.
With double Bo7, the worse players will see more time, and instead of being a real judge of depth, suddenly you're giving bad players the chance to do something flukey on multiple days. One game to prepare for = you know what you're up against. Two games to prepare for, two days in a row = at least one game will get shortchanged on prep time. I'm not particularly worried about the teams' ace players having second games (although it's going to hurt KHAN - they live on preparation), but when you're playing three or four flunkies multiple games it's a problem.
Now, I'm not suggesting that PL finals really need the level of preparation that goes into an OSL semi Bo5 - but we do like to see good games. I'm predicting we'll only see one day's worth of good games from any given team, and a lot of the results will depend on who gets luckier preparing for the right matches. Which is not a good way to determine playoff results.
If they were going to do this multiple match thing, the reasonable way to do it would be to space it out: first match of one PO Saturday, first match of the other Sunday, second match of one PO Monday, second match of the other Tuesday. And then one single Bo7 (or even Bo9) for the Grand Final. That leaves some preparation time for the teams without dragging too much.
I read all the posts in here and I still don't understand if it's been made clear how the format works.
A) I'm going to take STX/Khan for an example. Is it 2x Bo7 and ace if the day 1 and day 2 were won by different teams even with different scores? Example: STX STX STX STX
STX STX STX Khan khan khan Khan
Khan Ace, Khan wins 5-7? O_o
B) Or do they play 2x BO7 and whichever team has the most games won wins. Example: STX STX STX STX
STX Khan Khan Khan Khan
STX wins 4-0 1-4, for a total of 5-4? In this case they only play the ace if the scores were mirrors. Eg 4-3/3-4, 4-0/0-4.
If it's A it can create some very weird scenarios where the winning team won less games than the loser. If it's B why would they play Closer matches and set up a best of 7 when a single game would end the match? And would the match be over after STX's win in the 2nd day or would they play out the bo7 despite being already eliminated, subjecting the spectators to 4+ pointless games. Either way this format is fucked up.
On July 14 2009 12:22 NovaTheFeared wrote: I read all the posts in here and I still don't understand if it's been made clear how the format works.
A) I'm going to take STX/Khan for an example. Is it 2x Bo7 and ace if the day 1 and day 2 were won by different teams even with different scores? Example: STX STX STX STX
STX STX STX Khan khan khan Khan
Khan Ace, Khan wins 5-7? O_o
B) Or do they play 2x BO7 and whichever team has the most games won wins. Example: STX STX STX STX
STX Khan Khan Khan Khan
STX wins 4-0 1-4, for a total of 5-4? In this case they only play the ace if the scores were mirrors. Eg 4-3/3-4, 4-0/0-4.
If it's A it can create some very weird scenarios where the winning team won less games than the loser. If it's B why would they play Closer matches and set up a best of 7 when a single game would end the match? And would the match be over after STX's win in the 2nd day or would they play out the bo7 despite being already eliminated, subjecting the spectators to 4+ pointless games. Either way this format is fucked up.
It really is pretty dumb. I still don't think there's been a definitive answer on this yet either. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens.
On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote: wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden?
CJ's Zergs all have ZvZ as their worst matchup. On the other hand, it's not worth sending anything but a Zerg on God's Garden (although maybe Iris could take a game... maybe). Simple solution: get rid of the map.
The more I think about this, the more I don't like it. I'm coming the grips with the double-set idea - after all, many other sports use a multiple game playoff format. But if it's multiple games, then preferably I'd like to see multiple Bo5s.
With double Bo7, the worse players will see more time, and instead of being a real judge of depth, suddenly you're giving bad players the chance to do something flukey on multiple days. One game to prepare for = you know what you're up against. Two games to prepare for, two days in a row = at least one game will get shortchanged on prep time. I'm not particularly worried about the teams' ace players having second games (although it's going to hurt KHAN - they live on preparation), but when you're playing three or four flunkies multiple games it's a problem.
Now, I'm not suggesting that PL finals really need the level of preparation that goes into an OSL semi Bo5 - but we do like to see good games. I'm predicting we'll only see one day's worth of good games from any given team, and a lot of the results will depend on who gets luckier preparing for the right matches. Which is not a good way to determine playoff results.
If they were going to do this multiple match thing, the reasonable way to do it would be to space it out: first match of one PO Saturday, first match of the other Sunday, second match of one PO Monday, second match of the other Tuesday. And then one single Bo7 (or even Bo9) for the Grand Final. That leaves some preparation time for the teams without dragging too much.
well the main cj zergs are savior and effort with effort having his ZvZ his best MU and savior ZvZ is decent. i dont see any worst matchups for the cj zergs
On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote: wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden?
CJ's Zergs all have ZvZ as their worst matchup. On the other hand, it's not worth sending anything but a Zerg on God's Garden (although maybe Iris could take a game... maybe). Simple solution: get rid of the map.
well the main cj zergs are savior and effort with effort having his ZvZ his best MU and savior ZvZ is decent. i dont see any worst matchups for the cj zergs
Well, you're right about Effort. I sort of forgot about that. The second main Zerg though for CJ recently has been Kwanro, and his ZvZ has been less than impressive. Though he does win. sAviOr's ZvZ is well-known to be his weakest MU.
But after looking through some stats, I agree, it's weird. Every CJ player has a good record on God's Garden (although not against Zerg) and Much (a Protoss, no less) has only one loss - to Jaedong - in eight games, all against Zerg, although the other games were against mediocre (at best) players.
On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote: wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden?
CJ's Zergs all have ZvZ as their worst matchup. On the other hand, it's not worth sending anything but a Zerg on God's Garden (although maybe Iris could take a game... maybe). Simple solution: get rid of the map.
The more I think about this, the more I don't like it. I'm coming the grips with the double-set idea - after all, many other sports use a multiple game playoff format. But if it's multiple games, then preferably I'd like to see multiple Bo5s.
With double Bo7, the worse players will see more time, and instead of being a real judge of depth, suddenly you're giving bad players the chance to do something flukey on multiple days. One game to prepare for = you know what you're up against. Two games to prepare for, two days in a row = at least one game will get shortchanged on prep time. I'm not particularly worried about the teams' ace players having second games (although it's going to hurt KHAN - they live on preparation), but when you're playing three or four flunkies multiple games it's a problem.
Now, I'm not suggesting that PL finals really need the level of preparation that goes into an OSL semi Bo5 - but we do like to see good games. I'm predicting we'll only see one day's worth of good games from any given team, and a lot of the results will depend on who gets luckier preparing for the right matches. Which is not a good way to determine playoff results.
If they were going to do this multiple match thing, the reasonable way to do it would be to space it out: first match of one PO Saturday, first match of the other Sunday, second match of one PO Monday, second match of the other Tuesday. And then one single Bo7 (or even Bo9) for the Grand Final. That leaves some preparation time for the teams without dragging too much.
well the main cj zergs are savior and effort with effort having his ZvZ his best MU and savior ZvZ is decent. i dont see any worst matchups for the cj zergs
EffOrt's best matchup is ZvT. Hands down. He's also really good in ZvZ, and significantly above average, but his ZvT is only matched by Yarnc nowadays, with JD an extremely close 3rd imo. EffOrt is also like 8-0 on God's Garden, so it is a bit strange that they gave the map the thumbs down. I can only speculate that CJ doesn't want to have to waste a zerg (namely EffOrt) on God's Garden when there's always the possibility of him losing merely by a B.O. loss or a small micro error.
On July 14 2009 10:55 Conquest101 wrote: I don't understand why everyone is complaining about the format. First of all, it's NOT a best of 15 or 16 or some crap. It's 2 x BO7. If one team wins both BO7 (whether by 4-0 or 4-3 or whatever) you win the match. If the two teams split the two BO7, it goes to one final super epic ace match to decide it all.
Basically, depth of line-up is a bit more important, since the players a team would normally send might need to play twice, but honestly, even teams with more depth might very well end up sending their best 6 players twice anyway, rather than go deeper into their lineup to pull out average players, so it's not like teams like OZ are gonna be at too much of a disadvantage vs a standard 1 x BO7.
It makes the final ACE match super super imbalanced important of course and this actually gives teams like OZ with an S-class player an advantage.
So, in my opinion, this format is fine and balanced, and provides us with more games. + the chance for multiple ace matches. + how epic would a final ace match between like Effort/Jaedong or Jaedong/Bisu, etc. be.
I think it's awesome.
I agree with this
On July 14 2009 12:22 NovaTheFeared wrote: I read all the posts in here and I still don't understand if it's been made clear how the format works.
A) I'm going to take STX/Khan for an example. Is it 2x Bo7 and ace if the day 1 and day 2 were won by different teams even with different scores? Example: STX STX STX STX
STX STX STX Khan khan khan Khan
Khan Ace, Khan wins 5-7? O_o
B) Or do they play 2x BO7 and whichever team has the most games won wins. Example: STX STX STX STX
STX Khan Khan Khan Khan
STX wins 4-0 1-4, for a total of 5-4? In this case they only play the ace if the scores were mirrors. Eg 4-3/3-4, 4-0/0-4.
If it's A it can create some very weird scenarios where the winning team won less games than the loser. If it's B why would they play Closer matches and set up a best of 7 when a single game would end the match? And would the match be over after STX's win in the 2nd day or would they play out the bo7 despite being already eliminated, subjecting the spectators to 4+ pointless games. Either way this format is fucked up.
Scenario A is not so weird (in the context of other sports and competitions) if you think about it. Imagine if this was your Bo7 final series in basketball, hockey, or whatever. Switch out your 1v1s and think of them as goals scored by a team. Team A could absolutely rape Team B in Game 1 by 9001-0. Team B could still come back and win the next four games, winning by, say, 3-0 each game. Team B wins the series even though Team A outscored Team B 9001-12.
This 'problem' exists in several other competition formats, but the majority of people don't really complain about it.
So really, this format is actually a 3 game series played between teams, with game 1 on day 1, and games 2 & 3 on day 2; the thing is, game 3 is a super sudden death game between two of the team's strongest players, an extremely tense Bo1 that concludes a two day's worth of games.
Also, I can see another reason why KeSPA decided to make 'game 3' consist of one set instead of having 'game 3' be a normal Bo7 match; the audience would probably get terribly bored after 3 days worth of the same players playing the same players, so they decided to cut out the crap and just make it a super insane Bo1 to round everything off.
this format is so hard for teams with thin lineups... i don't think that oz will be able to win. they could win vs hite or khan, but these two teams definitly wont make it to the finals.
but well... 4 good players are enough. given the fact that they're allowed to send out the same players on both days. with jd, backho, hiya and .. well. that's the problem.
On July 14 2009 08:34 IntoTheWow wrote: wtf cj thumbs down God's Garden?
CJ has noticeably EffOrt, Kwanro, sAviOr, Orion and Devil.
But everyone knows sAviOr and Orion's ZvZ is bad, and Devil is not sure. EffOrt and Kwanro are too much of a watse to play a highly-possible ZvZ, and there's also speculation among the netizens that CJ thumbed-down God's Garden because Leta was most likely to play on that map.
sorry for all you khan fanboys but khan is pretty fucked!!! cant see them taking this everytime i look at this match up stx is a clear winner unless some miracle occur and no not the player kal >jangbi (showed a nice pvp this msl) hwasin >juni (hwasin's tvz in a bad day is decent while juni is 15%vs t ....) shuttle > miracle (if shuttle plays like he played vs flash and no reason he wont miracle would cry his name out in vein ) that leaves 3 other matches 1 zvz which is unkown unless u'r jaedong (not tired) or effort stork vs last is a free point for khan and calm vs fbh will be a great game but still hard to call leaving us 3-1 to stx with unkown 2 matches in order for khan to win they will have to avoid the last 2 matches in ace any player khan will send can be confronted with calm or kal just pouring my thoughts here and yes spelling mistakes is a common illness
On July 14 2009 09:25 TwoStep wrote: Right now Stork is bad.
If you knew anything about stork you would know he is one of the most consistent tosses around. To call him bad is a joke.
if you knew anything about stork you would know he has been bad for the last 2-3 months.
Well Khan is definately putting alot of faith into him and he is poised to play possibly 4 games. In the first series he is playing Shades of Twilight which is the ace for the second series, and in the second series he is playing andromeda, which is the ace map for the first series.
haha, never underestimate khan when we seldom see their b players on tv. Their backline players could still take games off since other teams hardly know their playing style. The only reason they are fucked is the maps this season is really bad for toss and the WL format. FBH can take any TvZ and TvT when he is at 100%. The reason they are at disadv is they need FBH, Jangbi and Stork to win on that day. If Great or Juni do a snipe its even better.
EPT
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