EPT
more like goooood lol
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jtan
Sweden5891 Posts
more like goooood lol | ||
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Nylan
United States795 Posts
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won. Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch. So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won. I guess July didn't deserve the Golden Mouse because of that drone drill, huh? | ||
Arrian
United States889 Posts
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won. Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch. So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won. Sure he got unlucky with Calm's overlord scout the third game, but the game on Carthage? Come on. You usually shouldn't 12 hatch in ZvZ on a two player map, and no doubt EffOrt's win against great in just those circumstances was what made him confident he could get away with it, but the rush distance on Heartbreak Ridge is about the same as it is on Carthage and Calm is no fool. Calm's build choice wasn't impressive, but EffOrt's was stupid. The only time where a 12 hatch is really comfortable is on a 4 player large map, like Andromeda, and even then the only time to feel real safe is on cross spots. What I'm trying to say is that these losses weren't luck, they were losses that EffOrt deserved for poor decision making. | ||
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On July 31 2009 03:57 Nylan wrote: I guess July didn't deserve the Golden Mouse because of that drone drill, huh? He has a point. Although Calm advanced, I still think that Effort is a better ZvZ player than him, just as I think that Jaedong is better than Effort at ZvZ despite the results from Gom. He's totally right that calm won due to build order luck (as well as skill). However, July's win was somewhat different because you could see how he was beating best down psychologically. July is a very micro oriented player and Best is a very macro oriented player and July used micro-based strategies (cheesy if you want to put it that way) to push Best off his game and he did it very well. There's always an element of luck in games, it's how you use that to your advantage that makes you a good player. Calm just got lucky, Effort could have went 12pool and won game 3, if only he made a different choice. On July 31 2009 04:07 Arrian wrote: Sure he got unlucky with Calm's overlord scout the third game, but the game on Carthage? Come on. You usually shouldn't 12 hatch in ZvZ on a two player map, and no doubt EffOrt's win against great in just those circumstances was what made him confident he could get away with it, but the rush distance on Heartbreak Ridge is longer than it is on Carthage. Calm's build choice wasn't impressive, but EffOrt's was stupid. The only time where a 12 hatch is really comfortable is on a 4 player large map, like Andromeda, and even then the only time to feel real safe is on cross spots. What I'm trying to say is that these losses weren't luck, they were losses that EffOrt deserved for poor decision making. This is very true, effort's decision to 12hatch on carthage was stupid, 12pool would have been a better move. It's not like it's heartbreak ridge where it takes lings forever to get across the map... | ||
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Ideas
United States8180 Posts
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: Effort is really likely to go 12 hatch. He does that a lot, and he also has had it work pretty well... You can imagine that Calm studied Effort's games and found it likely he would 12 hatch, so Calm decided to 9 pool to abuse him for that.People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won. Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch. So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won. You can't exactly say it was blind luck, anyway... | ||
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jinwoooooooo
United States176 Posts
On July 31 2009 03:09 NicolBolas wrote: People really do go out of their minds when a player wins a couple of games. Yet nobody even questions how those games were won. Effort's two losses today were build order losses. Sure, occasionally a Zerg can fight back from a 12-Hatch against a 9-pool. But this is rare and hard. Effort's loss here was basically luck. Any competent Zerg player ought to be able to win with a 9-pool vs. 12-Hatch. So Calm's win doesn't prove anything, because of how he won. No. I'm pretty sure Effort knew what he was doing when he 12 hatched two games in a row. He's not stupid. He's confident that he could fend off 9 pools with a 12 hatch build, and effectively at that (like vs great @ heartbreak ridge). If anything, Effort got a bit cocky because of his recent successes with his 12 hatch 'build', and was stubborn enough to 12 hatch again in the 3rd set when he failed his 12 hatch in the 2nd (kind of like Flash and 14cc). | ||
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Ideas
United States8180 Posts
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FranzF1
Chile1710 Posts
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ghostWriter
United States3302 Posts
On carthage, you just have to go straight down pretty much and there's no ramp or anything where you can defend, so it was a horrible move for effort. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
especially considering.. how good the terra was and how much he had.. every zerg should have lost here.. | ||
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rredtooth
5464 Posts
On July 31 2009 04:43 jinwoooooooo wrote: eh i'm not so sure about that. i don't think you 12 hatch hoping your opponent 9 pools and feeling confident you can fend it off. its just how the build orders turned out and effort just happened to outplay great.No. I'm pretty sure Effort knew what he was doing when he 12 hatched two games in a row. He's not stupid. He's confident that he could fend off 9 pools with a 12 hatch build, and effectively at that (like vs great @ heartbreak ridge). | ||
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darktreb
United States3019 Posts
On July 31 2009 04:59 ghostWriter wrote: It was stupid to go 12hatch on a map like carthage though. 9pool doesn't auto-beat 12hatch on Heartbreak Ridge because it isn't straight across to your opponent's base, you have to take a round-about route to get there and lings from a 12hatch pop in time to defend the expo, although micro does play a role. On carthage, you just have to go straight down pretty much and there's no ramp or anything where you can defend, so it was a horrible move for effort. Meh Heartbreak and Carthage aren't THAT different ... Carthage is a little harder to block runby on and that was of course the problem. Overall Effort's ZvZ style is really fun to watch but it does feel very dangerous and that finally caught up to him this time. It was an unfortunate turn of events for Effort but he's only going to get better. Hopefully he learns his lessons ... I don't know if I can bear rooting for another Flash (jk, sort of =/) | ||
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Avidkeystamper
United States8556 Posts
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johanes
Czech Republic2246 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + FlaSh has admitted that he's scared to play against Calm, according to the commentators no wonder, JD is now too | ||
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Dark_Luster
Korea (South)438 Posts
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win8282
Korea (South)454 Posts
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konadora
Singapore66365 Posts
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
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[Silverflame]
Germany640 Posts
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