Here's the situation. Light uses cheese when Flash went for double command. Flash sees someone in the crowd waving his/her hand and prepares accordingly. This is 100% proven by what Flash says:
11:30-11:35 이영호:관객석에서 이러구(손 흔들고) 있는거야 막 병력들오는거 눈치챘지 근까 Translation: Someone was doing this (Waving hands) in the crowd, so i realized the cheese was coming.
11:46-11:48 이영호:아니 어쩔수없이 보여 그냥 안볼려고 해도 Translation: I couldn't help it but notice even if i tried not to.
So Leta's eye mapping isnt exactly new in pro-league, hopefully they'll fix this somehow.
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
Its not something new actually, even Boxer have done similar things which made Garimto and few others programmer flamed him on the net.
i,m more surprised at how Flash realize the cheese was coming just by looking at some random crowd waving her hand, i mean, there was like 100 or people or so and most of them waving all the time.
unless Flash know that person, then that explain thing.
All of you constantly calling for one way glass should probably learn how it works first (hint: the studios would have to be much darker than they are)
not to mention how annoying it would be to have to play in a room made of mirrors
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
How is Bisu going to be able to concentrate with his striking good looks staring back at him?
I'd get like a baseball pitcher thing going, just have my coach sitting in the front row waving out signs for proxy gates in bottom right, hidden expo top left, and so on.
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
How is Bisu going to be able to concentrate with his striking good looks staring back at him?
On June 08 2009 20:00 heyoka wrote: All of you constantly calling for one way glass should probably learn how it works first (hint: the studios would have to be much darker than they are)
not to mention how annoying it would be to have to play in a room made of mirrors
Actually, they wouldn't have to be drastically darker. Yes, it would require some adaptation, but it's not as impossible as you make it sound.
On June 08 2009 20:06 alffla wrote: surprised they never thought about how see through glass would let players cheat -_-;
In the beginning they didn't have sound proof booths and headphones wasn't required. In the upcoming grand Dreamhack tournament (arena with 1100 seats) there will be no booths etc.
Installing one-way glass is problematic because it would be very distracting seeing mass reflections all over the place around you.
You can't just face the booths away from the audience (even if you redid the main screen placement) because the fans need to be able to see the players or they might as well be playing online.
Only realistic solution seems to be having a smarter layout and positioning of the booths like OGN has it setup.
OMG I HAVE THE BEST IDEA EVER! One way MIRRORS! jkjk If this gets out in the public, do you think there will be organized cheering in order to confuse any player that does this?
I read every post. All two pages. One-way glass is only one solution. I know it isn't an easy problem to fix; regardless, they WILL have to do something about it. Reflection or not; they should be paying attention to their bloody screens.
On June 08 2009 20:30 -orb- wrote: It's a hard to fix problem imo.
Installing one-way glass is problematic because it would be very distracting seeing mass reflections all over the place around you.
You can't just face the booths away from the audience (even if you redid the main screen placement) because the fans need to be able to see the players or they might as well be playing online.
Only realistic solution seems to be having a smarter layout and positioning of the booths like OGN has it setup.
you don't need to have one-way glass all over the place, just between the players and the audience. The next could just be a normal booth.
Why don't we get Bunkie to stand in front of the booths, it would stop this cheating and be hilarious at that same time. But all the gamers would hate it
On June 08 2009 21:57 jello_biafra wrote: They should just do the same as in the OGN studio :O Tilt the booths or whatever so that they can't see the audience.
Few things about the original post: - Game is quite old, from October 08. - Since when is 2 Factory considered cheese? - Waving at 5:30 into the game could mean anything. - Flash was hardly prepared for that but defended well.
This just seems like a bad example of looking at the crowd to cheat.
If the player can't even see the audience then that makes it so impersonal imo. Might as well just get rid of the crowd all together. In every other "sport" the crowd can make a difference and pump up the player. Sure a player could gain an advantage out of it. But whats to stop the other player using it the exact same way?
On June 08 2009 22:55 ReS wrote: Few things about the original post: - Game is quite old, from October 08. - Since when is 2 Factory considered cheese? - Waving at 5:30 into the game could mean anything. - Flash was hardly prepared for that but defended well.
This just seems like a bad example of looking at the crowd to cheat.
Pretty sure the point is that Flash said after the game he saw someone in the crowd waving, knew what was happening, and was thus prepared.
Don't they have one-way glass in GOM? I remember seeing something like this in Artosis' coverage of Idra's first TV match. I could be totally wrong though.
one way glass OR changing the angle of the booths so that the gamers wouldn't see the crowd would probably be the best way to go about it. but if i were to pick one over teh other, the one way glass would be my choice
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
How is Bisu going to be able to concentrate with his striking good looks staring back at him?
Either they need to revert back to COEX MBC look when they would look at each other, or they need to add lights to reflect off the glass so they can't see the audience.
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
I thought that would be a good idea too, but on a second thought it might feel a bit claustrophobic.
On June 08 2009 21:56 OreoBoi wrote: Why don't we get Bunkie to stand in front of the booths, it would stop this cheating and be hilarious at that same time. But all the gamers would hate it
On June 08 2009 21:56 OreoBoi wrote: Why don't we get Bunkie to stand in front of the booths, it would stop this cheating and be hilarious at that same time. But all the gamers would hate it
No they wouldn't
For me at least I'd imagine it would help concentrating if you didn't see the crowd in the corner of your eye all the time.. and that would prevent things like reverse headphones from happening if you could look at yourself all the time!
Also, it's not exactly fair to call it cheating unless Flash and the spectator had it planned out in advance.... I do find it fishy that Flash took the time to look at the audience and was able to interpret the motions of a single person though.
How is this Flashs fault? Why is he cheating? What should he have done? He saw someone waving around in the crowd so heä's supposed to not think about it?
i really dont think this is anywhere near a new issue. I believe there were theories that boxer was really good partly due to his crowd hacking skills? and i saw this theory a while back. so u know.. not a new problem.
I dont play TvT so I wouldn't know but from that game, I just thought Light was responding to Flash's double command after scouting by applying pressure to cause econ damage? Where is the cheese part?
1) 2 Fact Tank/Vult vs 14 CC is not cheese. 2) Flash was utterly unprepared for the 2 fact even though he knew by scouting that something was up (marines blocking ramp, no vulture). If he actually knew 2 fact tank/vult was coming he would've went for fast wraiths + Siege instead of 3 fact vultures. I don't see how crowd watching helped him at all (i,e this game is a really bad one to illustrate this). 3) The interview makes no sense given the above two points and that it seems to assume that this crowd watching is a well known thing and people just treat it as a given. If there was oral confirmation that he cheated why did nobody say anything about it afterwards? I'd imagine there would have been a huge uproar.
Seeing this is pretty digusting though if it is true. Is crowd watching just some accepted feature of progaming like ear hacking used to be?
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
How is Bisu going to be able to concentrate with his striking good looks staring back at him?
Conspiracy!!!!!!
More like how is gogo going to play while having to resist being turned to stone.
Anyone remember this from the 3rd Progamer Incidents?
"28) Boxer's ear hack incident. It was Boxer vs H_love_Wii where Love had some stop lurkers and Boxer was about to pass them without knowing. Suddenly Boxer fans shout "AAAAAH!!!!!!!" and Boxer for no apparent reason turns back his troops. Fans later criticized him for being a ear hacker and Autumn, who is famous for Autumn and kids incident which we will later discuss, wrote in his homepage that Boxer is a fucking cheater. He later on apologized saying his comments were unappropriate and that these days ear hacking is a part of progaming."
Not exactly new stuff unfortunately... so they might not fix it soon.
Also:
"29) Xellos's "Barra~~~~~~~~ck" incident. It was Yooi vs Xellos where Yooi attempted center BBS. If Xellos didn't scout, he could have lost but luckily he did scout and won. But later on, some fans wrote on the internet that there was a guy who shouted "barra~~~ck" and told Xellos about the barracks. A Vod was provided and did prove that this actually happened. But no one knew if Xellos did hear that or not, and all the blame was on OGN for allowing this kind of thing to happen."
I dunno how the booths are in Korean but the ones they make at blizzcon that are 'sound proof' had a 1/2 inch space around the whole door edge. Since they don't speak english very well (arguably they can still catch words here and there though) its pretty maphack like if you have tasteless there commentating on everything.
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
I thought that would be a good idea too, but on a second thought it might feel a bit claustrophobic.
"One way glass" isn't some magical material that can only be seen thru from one side. It's just glass. To obtain this effect in a pro gaming arena, the whole arena would have to be really dark/dimly lit, and the player booths highly lit up (which would make them only see reflections). It's like if you try to look out a window at night with the lights on. You can't see shit outside.
However, putting the audience in darkness could pose a lot of safety concerns. The most fair thing to do would be to have the booths closed, but with large TV's on the outside of them that show the player, although obviously this is less intimate and doesn't exactly make one feel like it was worth coming out to the studio instead of watching it on TV.
Elevating the booths to a point where the audience is not in a good line of sight is the best thing to do right now, and I don't really know what else they could do. The audience getting excited is pivotal to the success of events, so they can't just make a rule 'no getting excited.' All they can do is have referee's watch players and say 'no watching the audience during the game.' Which sounds awful, but it's basically how university tests work.
In Yongsan stadiium, they use close headphone. Just they put in-ear headphone and close headphone so there is noway that they can listen people etc. Moreover, players are in box. In MBC stadium, headphones aren't so close... TT
the first time i saw a SC broadcasted match, this was the first thing i thought when i heard the crowd screaming "AAAAHHH". This is so obvious that i really found it strange nothing was done to prevent this. The crowd perhaps even scream louder to help his favorite progamer. Even a soudproof booth im not sure if is ideal to block 100 ppl screaming near it.
howw in the world could he now he was getting rushed just by the faces or arms in the crowd? it was obvious after he 14 CCed he was getting harassed i really dont see the point
Really how much does 1 way glass cost..... i know it would suck to play in a mirrored room. Might be kinda claustrophobic, but it would solve all the problems. The booths already seem very well bright and the rest of the studio appears darker. I don't think it would be that hard to make it work.
Having the players face more away from the crowd would not be so far-fetched.
You just have to put their mugs up on big moniters so the crowd can still see them.
The games will never be "proven legit" until you take the crowd out the equation entirely. Who knows? Maybe there's someone in the crowd you've planned to glance at, off a mirror nearby, who's going to show you your opponents build order with his fingers?
Like most sports rules however, this is only going to get fixed when someone perfects how to cheat with it still being available and trounces everyone.
On June 15 2009 11:29 agarfin wrote: Really how much does 1 way glass cost..... i know it would suck to play in a mirrored room. Might be kinda claustrophobic, but it would solve all the problems. The booths already seem very well bright and the rest of the studio appears darker. I don't think it would be that hard to make it work.
As much as real glass... Because that's what it is. Lighting is what makes a one way mirror a one way mirror.
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
I thought that would be a good idea too, but on a second thought it might feel a bit claustrophobic.
Then place one way glass only that side of the booth, where the audience is.
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
I thought that would be a good idea too, but on a second thought it might feel a bit claustrophobic.
Then place one way glass only that side of the booth, where the audience is.
The excitement is in being able to see the progamers. Also, I'm not sure how you would light the audience area so brightly without disrupting the stage.
On June 15 2009 10:23 GoSu wrote: In Yongsan stadiium, they use close headphone. Just they put in-ear headphone and close headphone so there is noway that they can listen people etc. Moreover, players are in box. In MBC stadium, headphones aren't so close... TT
In the past the headphones looked identical to industrial strength ear protectors with a OGN sticker on it. If it was in anyway possible to delay the game the commentators see like 15-25 seconds that would be best, thats been done in wc3 before, dunno if its possible for bw.
I think that if the booths have thick glass geared for being soundproof, there is some sort of white-noise inside the booth (to have the noise-cancellation effects of a fan or air filter on a loud setting), and the players wear the heavy duty ear protectors on top of noise cancellation earbuds, then there is almost no possibility for earhacking. After that its a simple matter of either having players face eachother and watching a players eyes (pointing a camera at their face and the crowd isnt much is it) so that atleast they can have a good idea if someone is crowdhacking), or booths can be raised up. And who knows if slightly raising the light of the booth and slightly lowering the light on the crowd (not mirror status) can make it harder to see the crowd, then no harm done, right?
You could also go raised booths that face eachother, best of both worlds.
Hey guys I have an idea. Why not use that kind of "one-way" type glass that allows you to see in but not allow the person on the other side to see out? It'd probably solve all these problems (kinda surprised it hasn't been said yet, tbh...).
But really, the best solution is to just have the players facing each other. This way the crowd can still see their profiles while the gamers can only see the audience out of the corner of their eyes. This makes it so the gamers can at least feel a little of the crowd's aura while not giving them any distinct advantage. Sure, it might not solve all the problems but it will make it much more difficult for the players to read the audience.
On June 15 2009 10:23 GoSu wrote: In Yongsan stadiium, they use close headphone. Just they put in-ear headphone and close headphone so there is noway that they can listen people etc. Moreover, players are in box. In MBC stadium, headphones aren't so close... TT
In the past the headphones looked identical to industrial strength ear protectors with a OGN sticker on it. If it was in anyway possible to delay the game the commentators see like 15-25 seconds that would be best, thats been done in wc3 before, dunno if its possible for bw.
Too many face shots are taken for this to work properly imo
I mean think about it, score is 2:2 ace match and we're right before a huge EEHANTIMING. But then all of a sudden we see a single shot of attacking player suddenly facepalming and bursting into tears
On June 23 2009 08:31 n wrote: Hey guys I have an idea. Why not use that kind of "one-way" type glass that allows you to see in but not allow the person on the other side to see out? It'd probably solve all these problems (kinda surprised it hasn't been said yet, tbh...).
To the video of flash and those comparing it to Leta, Leta straight up oggled the crowd, whereas flash didnt intend to see anything, its hard to miss someone crazy waiving in the audience, even if your not focusing on it.
One way mirrors... How they work: they are not really mirrors but just a piece of glass coated with a thin layer of metal. This reduces the amount of light transmitted across the glass and increases the amount of light reflected by the glass, while still maintaining some level of transparency. This property in addition with a difference in light intensity on either side of the glass creates a one way mirror. By keeping one side brightly lit and the other side dark, a person in the lit portion would see a mirror while those in the dark would see through the glass. It's like when you're sitting in a restaurant at night and look out a normal glass window but can't see shit. The people outside in the parking lot can see you fine though.
Using a one way mirror is very plausible as the restaurant window effect is increased dramatically with the right type of glass, so the difference in light would not have to be that great. The player booth would not have to be overly bright and the audience would not have to be in total darkness. Actually, the booth only has to be slightly brighter than the studio. As long as the audience is something like 20 feet away from the glass, the player in the booth will not be able to see them at all. With the right light intensities, the player would also not see a complete reflection but rather a semi-blurred reflection. In conclusion, one way mirrors.
On June 08 2009 22:59 Ludrik wrote: If the player can't even see the audience then that makes it so impersonal imo. Might as well just get rid of the crowd all together. In every other "sport" the crowd can make a difference and pump up the player. Sure a player could gain an advantage out of it. But whats to stop the other player using it the exact same way?
The mechanics of most sports don't involve a fog of war.
On June 23 2009 08:31 n wrote: Hey guys I have an idea. Why not use that kind of "one-way" type glass that allows you to see in but not allow the person on the other side to see out? It'd probably solve all these problems (kinda surprised it hasn't been said yet, tbh...).
LOL OMG was that a joke or was he really serious??
On June 08 2009 19:49 PH wrote: It's really quite easy...
They just need to tell MBC to un-fail their studio. Someone mentioned that OGN has their booths higher up and angled so the players do not have a clear view of the audience. MBC does not.
Even better would be to install one way glass onto the booths so players can't see out regardless.
How is Bisu going to be able to concentrate with his striking good looks staring back at him?
Lot's of artists on stage do not see the crowd since all the lights are pointed in their direction. Just do the same making sure the ligth's angle doesn't bother the players.
it really is their own fault, it's just instinctual to check out your peripheral vision :/ im sure theyll make the booths one way eventually
On June 08 2009 20:00 heyoka wrote: All of you constantly calling for one way glass should probably learn how it works first (hint: the studios would have to be much darker than they are)
not to mention how annoying it would be to have to play in a room made of mirrors
In his today's OSL game against Canata when both were going for proxy and their early scvs met near Leta's base he instantly looked at the audience AGAIN. God, when it's so obvious and even cought on camera (will add youtube when the game is uploaded) they should really take some precautions against it.
On July 01 2009 22:00 ondik wrote: In some recent weekly news Artosis mentioned it's well known fact that Leta DOES cheat this way but they can't do anything about it.
In his today's OSL game against Canata when both were going for proxy and their early scvs met near Leta's base he instantly looked at the audience AGAIN. God, when it's so obvious and even cought on camera (will add youtube when the game is uploaded) they should really take some action in it.
On July 01 2009 22:00 ondik wrote: In some recent weekly news Artosis mentioned it's well known fact that Leta DOES cheat this way but they can't do anything about it.
In his today's OSL game against Canata when both were going for proxy and their early scvs met near Leta's base he instantly looked at the audience AGAIN. God, when it's so obvious and even cought on camera (will add youtube when the game is uploaded) they should really take some precautions against it.
I thought the OGN stage was better and did not have the problems that MBC one has yes?
dont keep bumping this thread, if you wanna discuss leta cheating over and over go to the thread where it was news, on a serous note, leta is bad, his best skill isnt his micro its looking at the audience
On July 01 2009 22:00 ondik wrote: In some recent weekly news Artosis mentioned it's well known fact that Leta DOES cheat this way but they can't do anything about it.
In his today's OSL game against Canata when both were going for proxy and their early scvs met near Leta's base he instantly looked at the audience AGAIN. God, when it's so obvious and even cought on camera (will add youtube when the game is uploaded) they should really take some precautions against it.
Leta peeked at the audience quickly (could have been an eyeroll) a good 2 seconds BEFORE Canata started to move out his scv, before anyone screamed anything, and peeked again as the scvs met. I don't see in any possible reason how this could have influenced the game in any way, and find most of the "Leta cheated" talk complete and utter bullshit.
On July 01 2009 22:00 ondik wrote: In some recent weekly news Artosis mentioned it's well known fact that Leta DOES cheat this way but they can't do anything about it.
In his today's OSL game against Canata when both were going for proxy and their early scvs met near Leta's base he instantly looked at the audience AGAIN. God, when it's so obvious and even cought on camera (will add youtube when the game is uploaded) they should really take some action in it.
On July 01 2009 22:00 ondik wrote: In some recent weekly news Artosis mentioned it's well known fact that Leta DOES cheat this way but they can't do anything about it.
In his today's OSL game against Canata when both were going for proxy and their early scvs met near Leta's base he instantly looked at the audience AGAIN. God, when it's so obvious and even cought on camera (will add youtube when the game is uploaded) they should really take some precautions against it.
I really wish Artosis could justify that comment a bit; I'm willing to believe that it's true but I'm not just going to take it on faith that Leta cheats because Artosis says it's a "well known fact" : /
also if you yourself are cheesing, how would looking at the crowd help you at all? the crowd will be going crazy regardless if the other guy is cheesing too.
On July 01 2009 22:00 ondik wrote: In some recent weekly news Artosis mentioned it's well known fact that Leta DOES cheat this way but they can't do anything about it.
In his today's OSL game against Canata when both were going for proxy and their early scvs met near Leta's base he instantly looked at the audience AGAIN. God, when it's so obvious and even cought on camera (will add youtube when the game is uploaded) they should really take some precautions against it.
Wait, so this is in the OSL arena, which is known for being better designed to prevent this sort of cheating. You are accusing Leta of looking into the crowd to see their reaction when he himself was goign to cheese, so they would be going banana's regardless?
Unless you are implying he had some well placed friends out there holding up signs to tell him his opponents builds, I am not following you.
On July 02 2009 17:44 georgir wrote: also if you yourself are cheesing, how would looking at the crowd help you at all? the crowd will be going crazy regardless if the other guy is cheesing too.
That's true, it doesn't really help you when you are on the one doing the cheese.
EPT
someone told me to take a look at it and I'm korean so i translated it
![[image loading]](http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/8776/peripheralvision.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6945/manwithblinders.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt257/DoktarHEFG/StarSense-1.jpg)
