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Balance-Sorted Pro-Map Pack

Forum Index > BW General
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StrikerX22
Profile Joined February 2009
United States41 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-09 08:07:19
April 07 2009 09:23 GMT
#1
Hey guys, this is a personal project because I hate not knowing the balance of maps when I'm hosting. The idea is that I take all of the maps listed in Team Liquid's map database, and sort them based on their balance ratings. It's taken me about a month to go through it (and then some, after considering new rules etc) and 4,000+ words, but it's basically done.

I'm wondering what the character limit is on posts here... I'd like to post the contents of my Readme.txt for further explanation.

Links for download (56MB in a rar, 60MB unpacked):
*Sendspace (First upload)
*Rapidshare
Please randomly choose a link in order to keep them both alive. Sendspace lasts 30 days after last d/l, Rapidshare 90.
edit:[I was mistaken that there were limited downloads.... it's 1GB limit for ME to download from various people, not those people from my files. It's unlimited for Sendspace, and I assume Rapidshare probably too.]


I should point out that the maps are sorted both by balance and alphabetically. Because of this, every map exists in at least 2 different places for convenience, with the possibility of 4 places (Neo Harmony would be under 'N' and 'H,' and the balance method will often have a 2nd spot for maps that are less tested only for a certain matchup). The sorting scheme is all explained below.

Readme.txt:

_March 5th 2009 Maps_
Here are all Team Liquid pro 1v1 (some 2v2) melee maps organized by race balance. (No Trainers.)

History:
-April 6th 2009: Took me a month on and off to get this done. Enjoy.

======================
Contents (search on):
[1-4*'s indicate importance]

How this is balanced
***(explains the rigid details of how I consider things balanced or not balanced.)

Sorting
****(understand where I put everything and why.)

Future additions
**(I may work further on this map pack, or you can too.)

Notes on gathering
*(Some maps didn't come from TLPD because it failed to have them when listed.)

Interesting stuff
***(Maps that are interesting for whatever reasons. Want any included here?)

Logs
**(see my many decisions, give me suggestions/input. I'm no pro.)
======================


======================
How this is balanced:
======================
+ Show Spoiler +
-BALANCE: is defined as being between 40% and 60% in the matchup in question. That is, it must not be 40% or 60%, but between. a 40%/60% would mean 3 to 2 advantage, meaning 50% (1.5x) more likely to win (as 2 to 1 is "100%" more likely, or 2x). I find reaching that unacceptable. Naturally, all mirror matchups are "balanced," though a map may still have starting locations that affect your outcome.

-WELL TESTED: is defined as at least 20 games for matchup in question. May lower to 16 on request (also will for the exception that the map is a sequel with a similar score in that matchup, and it is very close to 50%). See description of folder "New or Too Untested" for more information. If they are only good for mirror matches, then they must be played at least 50 times total by any matchups and 20+ total for mirrors to be considered worth the time.

++TECHNICAL NOTE: There are times when less than 20 games allows you to predict balance for 20. If all wins for either race until 20 games is reached, and it can't break balance, then it is balanced (basically, if lower/equal number is 9, so 9-9 or 9-10/10-9 out of up to 19 games). Conversely, if one number has 12+ (12-19 out of up to 19 games), then the lower number cannot achieve balance by 20 games, so it is imbalanced. Recall reaching 40% or 60% is considered imbalanced.

++I'd also like to impose another rule: if a matchup has 90%+ (or 10%-) with 10+ games, I'll consider it imbalanced. So far, only Ragnarok qualifies.


-MAP VERSIONS: I take the latest version of a map if both it and its predecessor are not definitely balanced. This also means that even if there's no obs version for the newer version, I will ignore the old one, assuming it's been changed for the better. Really, I'll usually only take an older version if the newer one is obviously worse. Exceptions where I take multiple versions are in the Random Notes at the bottom.

-OBS: I will include Obs and Melee of selected versions together when available. I may work on creating Obs versions for ones missing, in time (it's not hard).

======================
Sorting:
======================
+ Show Spoiler +
-FOLDER CATEGORIES are as follows:
(NOTE: any folder with an x in front denotes nothing in it)

*1 All Matchups (all matchups in this folder are balanced and well tested, aka a great tried and true map. The 1 denotes the order in which the folders will display, in terms of importance.)

*2 PvZ and PvT (balanced for Protoss vs anything.)
*2 TvZ and TvP (balanced for Terran vs anything.)
*2 ZvP and ZvT (balanced for Zerg vs anything.)
*3 PvT only
*3 TvZ only (balanced for only this matchup, or mirrors, as always.)
*3 ZvP only

*4 Mirror Matches only (these maps suck at balance, but might be interesting for mirror play. They must be played 50+ times [20+ mirrored] to be considered. No map met these criteria, so it would be lowered in the future. Anything that imba was probably also rather weird, and got put into "Weird," or more likely was simply too untested. In other rules, changing the rules for this folder probably won't help any.)

*4 New or Too Untested (They may show some trends of balance or otherwise, but really it's too early to tell. Use at your own risk, perhaps to test one's adaptability. Any map that has any one matchup that is poorly tested will have a DUPLICATE here. Basically, I will sort into a subfolder "PvZ and PvT" if TvZ is obviously imbalanced. So the "possible balance" of PvZ and PvT will be shown. Older maps [2years+ since last played] are put under individual "Rarely Played" folders wherever they're sorted, since they may have been dumped for a reason.)

*5 2v2 only so far (self-explanatory. They've never seen 1v1 play in pro games.)

*5 Recommended nonPro maps (self-explanatory. They have nothing to do with the pro scene, but have potential. (4)Yellow as seen in ICCup is what brought about this folder. Any suggestions or comments?)

*5 Weird (I don't know what to think of these maps. Whether they are tested or not, if the map is just really weird (or island), it's going here. There will be a duplicate of all previous folder names inside, sorted appropriately. Furthermore, if a map hasn't been played even once, then it will likely go here.)

*Alphabetical (All maps in pack sorted by first letter into letter folders for easy searching (Neo Harmony would be under both 'N' and 'H'). Also, Lost Temple maps are found here in a special folder.)

Remember, maps are sorted by # of players before alphabetically.

gl + hf. Questions/requests go to StrikerX22@msn.com.

- StrikerX22 @USWest

======================
Future additions:
======================
+ Show Spoiler +
TO DO:

---Make/find Obs versions of maps that don't have them (maybe). I've already looked through ICCup, and gotten a couple from MapDori, as listed in the next section.

---Separate Island from other "Weird" maps (so many are)? Also, let me know if there's any Island maps I missed due to not noticing a lack of ramp... sneaky little buggers.

---Check for balance more thoroughly in "Weird." I'm not sure I was careful with island maps, but so far only one was put into a balanced folder (Neo Forbidden Zone, PvT only, barely). I also opted not to sort untested maps according to imba, which I did for the other maps (TvZ and ZvP imba but untested PvT would get into PvT only, under "New").

======================
Notes on gathering:
======================
+ Show Spoiler +
List of maps d/l'd from elsewhere:

-Sin Chupung Ryeong 2.1 from ICCup 7th season pack. I am NOT sure this is the version used in pro leagues, but Mapdori only lists versions 1.1 and 2.1, so I assume it is. (Was a bit hard to find good info on this.)
-Desperado @MapDori (Assuming anything directly from MapDori without any other versions is probably the right one.)
-Destination @MapDori
-Neo Harmony ("Sword in the Moon" 2.1) from ICCup 7th. evidence: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=88328
-Isles of Siren from softpedia, googled. No picture from TLPD or MapDori. Map is islands with thin separations.
-Lycosidae from softpedia, googled. Goofy high-mineral expansions.
-Medusa 1.1 @MapDori (see note just below, in "added obs from mapdori.")
-New Remote Outpost - melee from softpedia, obs from nibbits.
-Outburst from broodwarmaps.net. Min only nat, weird expos.
-Tears of the Moon from ICCup. Broodwarmaps.net only had a trainer+obs version listed as Melee. Map has min-only's on edges with 4*3k min each, above that is 5*3k-min + 10k-gas. Central 4*1.5k expos as well. Main is 8*1.5k+gas, Nat is 8*1.5+gas. There are also 2 double-stacked power generators on inside wall of each 4*3k.

-Warp Gate 2 (Can't find. never played in pro leagues.)

added obs from ICCup:
-carthage
-athena 2
-byzantium 2 (2.2)
-colosseum II 2.0

added obs from MapDori:
-byzantium 2.3
-medusa 1.1 (instead of 1.0 melee, but it seems exactly the same, save for babelfish remark: "Amended the line attempt terrain of each area." So pathing? Either way, same map. I have thus added 1.1 melee also.)

More to come later, perhaps.

======================
Interesting stuff:
======================
+ Show Spoiler +
Interesting Maps (not necessarily good or balanced):

1v1:
-(2)Highway Star (only been played a little. It actually seems fairly well made and normal, save 2 thin-walled+cliff "central" expos to the sides which 10 min patches + gas. I think it's worth a look at.)
-(2)Korhal of Ceres (A tall map, tight map probably bad for Zerg. Interesting layout of expansions and paths.)
-(3)Demon's Forest (Low vision in center. Said to be rather zerg biased, but TvZ: 2-1 and ZvP: 0-3.)
-(4)Neo Arkanoid (Must break through many lines of buildings to get around.)
-(4)Desperado (Double gas in main, no gas in nat, close min-only with building blocking base placement, behind that is a gas expo. Also, nearby island gas expo. Between min-only and nat, there's a bridge partially blocked with low minerals.)
-(4)Fantasy 2 (Not symmetrical, so play for adaptation/fun, not balance. It's pretty weird, but every main is high ground with a ramp, at least.)
-(4)Geometry (Tons of hills/lumps.)
-(4)Iron Curtain (Has 4 starting points, 2 on each side of a wall, some of which is made of minerals [3 expansions, 1 w/ gas, easily attackable from other side]. You must scout to see if you're playing an island/NR15 game or not.)
-(4)Plains to Hill D (Not too odd. Just has low ground spawns with high ground nats with normal ramps, and high island expos up/down 7-min and left/right 7-min+gas.)
-(4)Persona (Has a pretty interesting structure, and incorporates perma Dark Swarms in acceptable places, as in not your main or nat. It does have one on a wide ramp to your nat [nat is attached to main], and it places some over mineral lines farther out. There are also a few scattered in the middle battlefield for strategic play. Expos are rather spaced, which justifies the DS's a bit. I like this map in theory.
-Vampire (Never played in pro games, but worth a look at. Gas expos are along the left and right sides only, while the top and bottom contain two very close and connected min-only's each. No ramps. Double gas on main, like Desperado, but has gas in nat too.)
-(6)DMZ (has roads through the center in which ground units cannot attack from via perma DWebs.)

2v2:
-(5)Hwangsanbul (has 2 ramps for each base, one blocked by nonempty mineral patches, and one by mature cocoon. Both have a working, permanent disruption web lower than the block on the ramps. This may make Terrans more viable in 2v2. Of course, mirror teams are always good.)

* Don't forget anything in "Weird," and don't forget about "Rarely Played" under "New or Too Untested." They're more likely to be imbalanced, but also likely to be interesting. Keep in mind Island maps are going under "Weird," and most there are.

* Maps included that have not been played in pro matches, but are in TLPD:
(I didn't keep track of this extremely well, so I may have missed one here or there.)
-(4)Chariots of Fire
-(6)DMZ
-(4)Iron Curtain
-(4)Vampire
-(?)Warp Gate 2 (Can't find.)

======================
Logs:
======================
+ Show Spoiler +
Random Map Notes/Exceptions: (Yes, I type too much. Consider using search for map titles. Feel free to give me insight on any of these, as I don't claim to have it.)

-BladeStorm 1.05 and Blade Storm are both included. 1.05 is NOT a different tileset (it says jungle instead of twilight). There is no picture of it (I looked, and I didn't notice any difference), and it has even less plays than the original. Both are under "Rarely Played," under "New or Too Untested," though the original made balance in "TvZ only" as well. Further investigation: MapDori.com has v1.01 and v1.5, and 1.5 visually matches "1.05" (TLPD) exactly, and the TLPD pic for the "original" is wrong. The "original" matches v1.01 when opened.v1.01 was different, though.

-Byzantium 2 and 2.3: 2.3 has what looks like 1 less mineral patch at each expansion, which seems fine, and altered gas placement slightly, but no pro games have been played on it. 2 seems pretty balanced but is still new; only TvZ has enough games behind it to qualify, so it's in "TvZ only." Both 2 and 2.3 will appear under "New or Too Untested." Heck, 2.3 is so close, it goes in "TvZ only" as well.

-Bifrost 3 vs Neo Bifrost: Neo is older, but is better tested. 3 changes the resources significantly (adding gas to a central expos and minerals to behind-base expos). It's a strange map to begin with, but Neo has shown better balance in TvZ and has enough games to show balance in PvT (is) and ZvP (isn't). 3 unfortunately shows only barely enough for balance for TvZ (barely isn't). I think the changes seem good based on that a central expo should be worth taking for the risk, and there is no nearby expo other than the behind-base mineral-only. I've included both, Neo under "TvZ and TvP," and 3 under "New or Too Untested."

-Chupung Ryeong and Sin ("Neo") versions: What an interesting but imba map. Sin makes a significant terrain change near the back of your base, taking out an area easy to drop on and replacing it with low ground behind your nat for proxies. I can't decide on either, the balances don't match and aren't very thoroughly played yet. If they had some more ZvPs, I would throw Sin in Mirror Only probably. I will include both under "New or Too Untested," with old also under "TvZ only." Search txt for rule on "10-9" match. (I had to take the iccup version of sin, as it isn't uploaded to TL yet. I renamed it (2)SinChupungRyeongOB2.1icc.scx [too big with (2) in front to match. This name is tested to work.], and added the player count again.)

-Detonation F seemed a bit odd to me with the expansion layout and types, so I put it under Weird. If you think it deserves to simply be in Untested>Rarely Played, then let me know with your reasons.

-"Emperor" vs "Emperor of Emperor": What? "Emperor" doesn't seem to exist; it has no info except it was played only once, in a league that also played "Emperor of Emperor" several times. Chances are this is a screw-up. If you know anything about this, let me know. I did come across "The Emperor" by neobowman, but I figure that's unlikely.

-Forte and Neo Forte: I include both, because they have near opposite balance. Forte has balance in TvZ and 12-5 imba in ZvP, not enough in PvT. Neo Forte has 12-2 TvZ, but balance in ZvP and PvT. Therefore I will add Forte to "TvZ only" and Neo Forte to "PvZ and PvT." Neither will go under "New or Too Untested," despite Forte having low PvT, since Neo takes over for that.

-Gaema Gowon and Sin Gaema Gowon: This was a more difficult choice. The changes are in the terrain seemed to bring balance to TvZ, but PvT was changed drastically, from 6-10 (37.5% 16 games) to 12-8 (60% 20). I have a hard time believing these terrain changes would bring about such a big change, as it was a small one for TvZ. Thus, since the balance is right on the border (60%), I've decided to take the original map's games into the statistics at 1/4th their normal value. TvZ still shows balance, and ZvP still has insufficient games, but looks balanced so far. The PvT, of course, ends up lower than 60%, at 56.25%. So, I will put Sin Gaema Gowon in the "TvZ and TvP" folder. Keep in mind I would've accepted it anyways at 59.9%.

-Gauntlet 2003 vs Gauntlet TG: Two different maps. TG came after, and is based off 2003 in initial base design and nearby expansions, but adds a gas to the "alternate nat" behind the base, adds 2 island expos, and more bridges to take up the new vertical space (96->128 height). They're old and look it, but could be interesting. Reminds a bit of Destination. Not played much.

-Hall of Valhalla, Neo Hall of Valhalla, and WCG Neo Hall of Valhalla: It's island, I'm going with newest and WCG Neo is exactly the same as Neo, so if it weren't Island, I would take both stats into account. There are some other copy maps with WCG in front for no good reason, so expect similar treatment. Maps are: WCG Lost Temple, WCG Neo Jungle Story, and WCG Neo Legacy of Char.

-Hunters: uh yeah, it only has a weird obs version that would work fine in melee. Problem is, it's labeled obs, so I'd doubt anyone would attempt melee... not that that's much of a loss. It's Hunters. 2v2 only. Why would anyone play this 2v2 again? Well 2008 Shinhan Bank Proleague did. I won't bother making a "non-obs."

-Jim Raynor's Memory vs Jim Raynor's Memory J: I have no idea why it's called JR's Memory, but the J version is Jungle instead of Desert, looks more modern in resource alignment, and central expansion is deleted. J is the only version with games. Barely balanced for TvZ alone, at 58.8%. PvZ: 11-5 looks bleak as well, and PvT is 11-18 37.9%.

-Katrina vs Katrina SE: Katrina original has a lot of games under its belt, and it clearly shows Protoss bias. TvZ is pretty balanced, though. Katrina SE simply hasn't had enough games to tell, though the very few played have been pretty even so far. Problem is, it's only been changed slightly: expansions and ramps are altered a bit (notably less minerals in main+nat), and 4 small ramps help you get to high ground from another angle. I wonder if those ramps alone would balance this Protoss map. I'm no balance scientist, but I'd think that'd allow easier flanking. Might be good for Zerg, but Terran? I'll include both.

-Lost Temple maps: yeah these are going in their own little folder under Alphabetical. There's a lot of them, not all named starting with L, not played enough, not all easily accessible (ie. TLPD), and I am prejudiced against them. That's right. The ones on TLPD will be included. Otherwise, unless you give them to me, the others won't be.

-Luna vs Luna the Final: another toughie. Luna original is very balanced for everything, but has somewhat stupid starting bases which are fixed in Final, but Final hasn't been tested enough (save TvZ, balanced). Final has not-so-thin bridges, and I'm unsure how that affects balance. Terrans do show improved TvZ, 44.6% to 56%, but that seems counterintuitive, though less games have been played (25 instead of 65). I will include both just for the great balance of the original, though I'd figure Final is worth it.

-Medusa 1.0 vs 1.1: seems the same thing, but 1.1 isn't shown in TLPD. 1.1's only change is "Amended the line attempt terrain of each area," according to babelfish. Pathing? Both are included if you're picky.

-Monty Hall vs Monty Hall SE: Just a warning... SE has very few games, so it would end up in New>All matches, though I doubt Zerg are balanced. Map changes include 1 less min patch at main, and block minerals from 64 to 48 a piece (8 trips to 6). Ironically, with 28 non-mirror matches so far, it has very similar balance %'s to original (with ZvP 5-11 31.3% a bit underplayed). The changes seem pretty small, and iirc do not most zerg games end early here? I'm compelled to include the stats from both maps for SE since they match so well, unless you have good reasons that the balance has changed enough. Otherwise, this puts Monty Hall SE into PvT only, and I'll leave Monty Hall original out. Give me your input on this.

-Old Plains to Hill vs Plains to Hill vs Plains to Hill D: D is an updated version (without many games) set to desert terrain. Changes include 2(up/down) of 4 island expansions having gas taken out, leaving 7 min. I suspect they just didn't want Terran getting an easy 3 fully functional bases from lift? or at least require more work to defend another island farther away now. Land formations have moved a bit. Open ground a tad more, but not much. Main is slightly smaller. I also am unsure if upper left spawn would cause issues when you try to go up the ramp to the defensive high ground; it's pretty tight. Normal (but not 1.0/"Old") Plains had TvZ balance, and I'd suspect this one to be similar. Kinda interesting map anyhow. Using D only since normal had only somewhat enough games to show TvZ balance and significant changes were made.

-Old Symmetry of Psy vs Symmetry of Psy: 2 completely different island maps. Yes, base locations are similar and they're both desert, but Old has middle ground play with 4 expos reachable without transport once you're in it, and the newer version has a middle expo, gas at all expos, a much messier look, and main minerals at island cliff. I found "Old" on MapDori and it claims it's 2.0, and normal is 1.0. Go figure. I don't know what to call it now. I'll stick with "Old" = "Symmetry of Psy 2.0" and normal as "1.0", and include both.

-Outburst: Hard time finding it. According to one poster, it was a temporary name for the people at MapDori, but I don't see it there. It also has weird expansions. Map name I got was (3)OutBurst0[1].9.scm and matches the terrain shown in TLPD. No pro games recorded there though, so goes in "Weird."

-Python: Just letting you know, this well-played map barely passes balance in every matchup. TvZ:45-31(59.2%), ZvP:28-19(59.6%), and PvT:28-41(40.6%), meaning Terran are a bit strong, Zerg are averaged (T>Z>P), and Protoss are a bit weak. There are better balanced maps.

-Requiem vs Neo Requiem: This is likely a problem with statistics. As far as I can tell, there isn't much balance change here at all (terrain altered slightly, nats moved toward center a bit more, 1 min patch moved from "4th" to "3rd" base, both of which are behind the nat's mineral line, requiring lift/transport/tricking, and center mineral cross is smaller). Both have been played a lot (Neo being played now), and TvZ's match well. But ZvP's and PvT's do not. Each show one balanced, and the other well over. Even if I considered the stats to be one map, the balance vs imbalance would match Neo's. It's also important to note that PvT was played exactly 47 times for each map, and they show widely different stats.
Requiem | Neo Requiem +1/4R +1/2R +1*Requiem stats
ZvP:24-11(68.6%)| ZvP:53-50(51.5%) 52.8% 53.9% 55.8% Still bal.
PvT:24-23(51.1%)| PvT:34-13(72.3%) 68.1% 65.2% 61.7% Still imba.
If you don't think this is due to randomness, and I've missed an important balance point, please let me know, and I may include both versions. Otherwise, only Neo.

Rush Hour 2 vs Rush Hour 3: Similar problem, they have little changed (mineral patches adjusted a little, top left spawn made smaller), but the Terran matchups are quite different:
Rush Hour 2 | Rush Hour 3 +1/4RH2 +1/2RH2 +1*Rush Hour 2
TvZ:26-31(45.6%)| TvZ:43-24(64.2%) 60.9% 58.6% 55.6% Now bal.
PvT:16-15(51.6%)| PvT:8-24(25%) 30.9% 33.7% 38.1% Still imba.
Since the changes could have a little effect, I would go with "+1/2", and thus call RH3's TvZ within balance. If you think these changes will significantly favor Terran in TvZ, tell me so and I will consider "+1/4" or "+0" influence from RH2. Either way that'd put TvZ imba.

Vampire: The map has no games, but it looks somewhat interesting and not too abnormal, so instead of putting it under "Weird" for lack of any games, I'll put it under "New or Too Untested">"All">"Rarely Played.

Xeno Sky: I thought I recognized this, and that's good since I've gone through over 190 maps over the course of this project. This map is the newest version of Legacy of Char, after Neo (and WCG Neo, same thing). I've removed Neo Legacy of Char, as neither of these have shown balance (or enough games for it).

Feel free to dispute my reasoning; I want it to improve where it can.

Questions/requests go to StrikerX22@msn.com. [or pm me.]

- StrikerX22 @USWest


And that's that. Hope you enjoy.
Links for download (56MB in a rar, 60MB unpacked):
*Sendspace (First upload)
*Rapidshare
Please randomly choose a link in order to keep them both alive. Sendspace lasts 30 days after last d/l, Rapidshare 90.
edit:[I was mistaken that there were limited downloads.... it's 1GB limit for ME to download from various people, not those people from my files. It's unlimited for Sendspace, and I assume Rapidshare probably too.]


edit Apr 7th: added file size, comes out to 56MB in a rar, 60MB unpacked.
edit Apr 7th: added a rapidshare link so I don't run out of allowed d/l's per day. Basically should double to 36 iirc. Feel free to set up these d/l's in your own such account and post the link for me to put up here.
edit: Apr 9th: updated info on links (misunderstanding), unlimited d/l's daily.
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey
Lurgee
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Australia252 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-07 09:34:14
April 07 2009 09:33 GMT
#2
Chariots of fire, DMZ, Iron curtain and Vampire are all 2v2 maps, and have had many 2v2 games played on them.

Edit: I may have misinterpreted what you wrote, sorry in advance if this is the case TT.
StrikerX22
Profile Joined February 2009
United States41 Posts
April 07 2009 10:02 GMT
#3
See, this is a problem I encountered when I realized MapDori seems to list more leagues played for each map (but doesn't list stats), and TLPD doesn't seem to list many 2v2's at all. TLPD doesn't show any matches on Chariots. I am only going by those statistics, because I know no others.

Somewhere down the road, with new information and sources perhaps, the pack can be changed to more properly represent 2v2. As for now, it's essentially a 1v1 pack that tripped over a few 2v2's.

Do you have any sources for confirmation of these things by any chance? I'm not all that informed.
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey
ffswowsucks
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
Greece2294 Posts
April 07 2009 10:14 GMT
#4
Thats a lot of work u put in making this gz mate
Terran in particular is a notoriously strong race for a no brain skillhand bot style.
StrikerX22
Profile Joined February 2009
United States41 Posts
April 07 2009 19:41 GMT
#5
Thanks. It was a lot of thought more than anything... though Warp Gate 2 was a total pain, trying to look for it in Korean and still not finding it. It was the only one I couldn't find, so if anyone has or knows a Korean Map DB other than MapDori, let me know. I was specifically searching for the map itself though.

Anyhow, went through a listing of over 190 maps, though that includes sequels and such. Actual map content is difficult without slow counting since the obs are in the same folder, but that's how I wanted it. With the copies and all, it comes out to 56MB in a rar, 60MB unpacked. Should prolly edit that in...
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey
Mikilatov
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States3897 Posts
April 07 2009 19:51 GMT
#6
Wow, I've not checked out all your work yet, but this is a very impressive project. I'm definitely favoriting this and checking it out in more detail later. =)
♥ I used to lasso the shit out of your tournaments =( ♥ | Much is my hero. | zizi yO~ | Be Nice, TL.
Deleted User 31060
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
3788 Posts
April 07 2009 19:54 GMT
#7
Korean map stats are worthless.
Peaked at C- on ICCUP and proud of it! @Sunyveil
ZBiR
Profile Blog Joined August 2003
Poland1092 Posts
April 07 2009 20:04 GMT
#8
On April 07 2009 18:33 Lurgee wrote:
Chariots of fire, DMZ, Iron curtain and Vampire are all 2v2 maps, and have had many 2v2 games played on them.

Edit: I may have misinterpreted what you wrote, sorry in advance if this is the case TT.


DMZ not that many
Ranix
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States666 Posts
April 07 2009 20:10 GMT
#9
Great idea! Even if you based it off of faulty balance ratings.. that is closing than I would of gotten.. I am horrible at finding balanced maps
Legends never gg
StrikerX22
Profile Joined February 2009
United States41 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-09 20:52:40
April 07 2009 21:20 GMT
#10
@Sunyveil: Did you pay attention to the whole thread? It's a controversial thing to begin with. I understand that the top players can skew stats... I had already thought about that. If you really want to take into account the dominance of each race each year, then be my guest and make me a chart. Even better, tally up how many games were played by each race, and won by each race, each year.

Please don't forget that if many Terrans make it to the finals region, they also end up playing against each other. Those top players stop contributing. Anyone who disagrees can go watch the season of Protoss again. So instead of theorycrafting, give me stats, and I'll do the real work. I've tried to show balance as good as possible. If you haven't read my methods, please do so. I'm sure there's room for improvement though.

Also, if you compare some balance in the foreign scene, as in, all levels of play, you will notice the stats tend to be closer to 50% (source being WGTour). That's a skill thing showing through, and I don't believe foreign scene stats should be taken seriously unless they're for a specific level of play. I've already requested iCCup stats to return (I hadn't seen them when they apparently existed), and that will provide a lot more plays. Hopefully it'll allow sorting by rank as well. If that comes into play, either you guys can ask for specific maps to be compared, or one of you can do my project using only iCCup stats.

Thanks for attempting to render my work useless though.


[edit: I accidentally put down WCG, and I meant WGTour.]
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey
Tom Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1114 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-07 22:16:40
April 07 2009 22:14 GMT
#11
Thank you so much, Striker. For a long time, I wanted to know which were the most balanced maps of all time. Thanks to you, now we know. Your effort is appretiated.

Anyway, based on Striker`s work, I made a list of the ten most balanced maps of all time (which was not that hard to make since he already found 6). Those are (from most to least balanced):

1. Nostalgia
2. Tau Cross
3. Luna
4. Arcadia 2
5. Andromeda
6. Python
7. Sin Peaks of Baekdu
8. Ride of Valkyries
9. Sin Gaema Gowon
10. Colosseum II

Since I did this late at night and my mathematical skills are rather terrible, it is possible I miscalculated. However, those are the results I got.

I also made another list. This one has the most balanced maps of all time with the exception of those that are still played (either professionally or casually) nowadays. I made this list if I ever wanted to play on (currently) less popular maps to spice things up somewhat, but still have at least some semblance of balance. Anyway, I post this list so you can use it if you want. The maps are (from most to least balanced):

1. Nostalgia
2. Luna
3. Arcadia 2
4. Sin Peaks of Baekdu
5. Ride of Valkyries
6. Sin Gaema Gowon
7. R-Point
8. Neo Bifrost
9. Neo Guillotine
10. Arizona

Again, I could have made a mistake, but this is generally the results I got. Please note that the bottom maps already have certain matchups where they are seriously imbalanced, so use these at your own discretion.

Of course, all of these maps are the most balanced statistically. However, as (Z)Jaedong proved in the Winner`s League by beating (T)Flash on a Terran-favoured map after playing three other games, statistics are not everything and good players can win even when the map seems to be against them. Plus, since some of these maps are really old, it is almost certain that different strategies were used during the time they were actually played. However, statistics are the only reliable indicator we have of map balance and we have to work with what we have.

If you find any mistake in any of the two lists, please let me know.
You and your "5 years of competitive RTS experience" can take a hike. - FrozenArbiter
StrikerX22
Profile Joined February 2009
United States41 Posts
April 07 2009 22:37 GMT
#12
Thanks. I appreciate the effort, but I would beware of listing maps as "most balanced," but rather only list for certain matchups. Also, I'd like to know your "math"/methods.... I don't really want to do random math just to guess. But yeah I think it'd be good to have a list of older and a list of newer separated... I'm sure most would go for that.

Perhaps some time later I'll at least separate the ones that are in sections 1-3 (not too new or untested) to display old vs new. In that case, recommend to me what "too old" is? as in, if you think the Artosis argument is too important, tell me when you think things have balanced out.

And yes, these stats are all we got, for now. More information can be added to the list if others are willing to contribute good research.
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey
Tom Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1114 Posts
April 08 2009 00:58 GMT
#13
What I essentially did was I wrote down the statistics of all the maps you marked to be balanced in at least two matchups. Then I checked in which maps was the unbalanced matchup the least unbalanced. Then I excluded all the more unbalanced maps until I had 10 for both lists. From there, I calculated to figure out what were the opposite percentages of the unbalanced percentages that were below 50% and then I simply arranged the list according to which maps had the lowest percentage (meaning they were the least unbalanced). I hope that did not sound too confusing, since it is all preety much simple.

Anyway, I agree with you that the distinction between old and new maps is important. However, as I said in my original post, the list only represents which maps are statistically the most balanced. This does not include other elements, so players use these maps at their own discretion.

However, I am not sure if arranging by matchups really helps the problem at all. Different matchups developed to a different degree over the years. For example, one can find the rough foundations of modern PvT play already in the finals of the 2001 EVER OSL, whereas PvZ has significantly changes over the years.
You and your "5 years of competitive RTS experience" can take a hike. - FrozenArbiter
StrikerX22
Profile Joined February 2009
United States41 Posts
April 08 2009 08:05 GMT
#14
Okay, yeah that's probably the best method we have so far for such a list.

You can ignore my matchups comment, it wasn't really founded.... probably partly was due to not knowing your process. But arranging by matchups just shows more options... Like, if you showed the top 10 balanced TvZ maps, ZvP maps, and PvT maps, then it'd be more variety while maintaining as much balance or better, since you compromised the list slightly by adding maps with an unknown element for one matchup (you failed to mention which race or if it really was only a little, even if least). I'd of course be willing to make these sorts of lists sometime if you don't want to. And of course, we can go the extra mile and list Old-Only and New-Only versions of the lists, and a mixed for people that want it simple.
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
April 08 2009 08:11 GMT
#15
Nostalgia on the most balanced list is a crime. -_-
Moderator。◕‿◕。
CharlieMurphy
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
United States22895 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-08 09:12:39
April 08 2009 09:12 GMT
#16
So what is the most balanced 3 maps for ZvT , TvP, and PvZ respectively?
..and then I would, ya know, check em'. (Aka SpoR)
Garnet
Profile Blog Joined February 2006
Vietnam9021 Posts
April 08 2009 11:17 GMT
#17
Luna at 4th... I don't think I have ever survived a 2-gate zealot rush on that map but it probably just my noob skill.
IdrA
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
United States11541 Posts
April 08 2009 11:20 GMT
#18
baekdu
lol
balanced
lolol
carriers
lololol
http://www.splitreason.com/product/1152 release the gracken tshirt now available
Harem
Profile Joined November 2007
United States11390 Posts
April 08 2009 11:21 GMT
#19
On April 08 2009 20:20 IdrA wrote:
baekdu
lol
balanced
lolol
carriers
lololol

protoss
lolololol?
Moderator。◕‿◕。
StrikerX22
Profile Joined February 2009
United States41 Posts
April 08 2009 19:09 GMT
#20
Idra, if you'd like to point me to some database that tells us exactly what is and isn't balanced for each matchup, be my guest. Heck, if you went through every fricking map (minus islands, preferably), and asked your buddies over there about them, then maybe we could just make a map pack based off that. I've done what I can so far. Stats are stats. If it took those Protoss too long to figure out to use carriers, or if it's a matter of stopping them from getting carriers, it's in the pros hands.

It's not like I handpicked these. Don't be an ass about it. If you have a list of games the TLPD doesn't have, that'd sure help too.

For the record, Sin Peaks of Baekdu:
TvZ: 25-29 (46.3%)
ZvP: 24-24 (50%)
PvT: 28-19 (59.6%) If it had 0.4% more, I'd have thrown it out for PvT imbalance.
Balance can still mean some favoring, because nothing is ever perfectly balanced.
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey
Tom Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1114 Posts
April 08 2009 20:38 GMT
#21
On April 08 2009 17:05 StrikerX22 wrote:
Okay, yeah that's probably the best method we have so far for such a list.

You can ignore my matchups comment, it wasn't really founded.... probably partly was due to not knowing your process. But arranging by matchups just shows more options... Like, if you showed the top 10 balanced TvZ maps, ZvP maps, and PvT maps, then it'd be more variety while maintaining as much balance or better, since you compromised the list slightly by adding maps with an unknown element for one matchup (you failed to mention which race or if it really was only a little, even if least). I'd of course be willing to make these sorts of lists sometime if you don't want to. And of course, we can go the extra mile and list Old-Only and New-Only versions of the lists, and a mixed for people that want it simple.


I see your point. Well, since there seems to be interest in such lists, I will make them. While I currently have to write a post for my blog, I will try to make them after that.

As for why I did not mention where the maps on the bottom are imbalances...well, that is what the TLPD links are for. If the viewers are click away from finding out which matcup is imbalanced, I think it is a waste of time to write where a certain map is imbalanced.

And for those of you complaining about the maps on the list. I am sorry, but statistically, these are the most balanced maps of all time. I was suprised at some of the statistics myself. For example, I was shocked to find out that Destination is a Protoss favoured map on PvT, even though, as a Protoss player, I cannot count the number of times I lost on that map due to a contain. But unless the real Steve was tampering with the results, I cannot really challenge those figures. :/ Basically, it is the fault of the progamers that the statistics are as they are.
You and your "5 years of competitive RTS experience" can take a hike. - FrozenArbiter
StrikerX22
Profile Joined February 2009
United States41 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-09 08:19:38
April 09 2009 08:18 GMT
#22
Thanks for the support, I look forward to the lists. Do however much you like, and I can fill in the rest. It'll end up in the OP and the Readme.txt in any future update (perhaps for that sole reason, but eh).

It's true the links are there for checking, but it's assumed they're balanced for all by the context, and the services are to cut down work, so it is in that spirit to display any such information. It'd be simple enough to say the worst matchup % next to it as a warning. I know it's picky but that's how I've been with the whole project.

Update on the download links... I've never used these services, so I misunderstood the 1GB daily limit to downloads to be for my files... it actually applies only to files I download using my account. My files can be downloaded without limit, providing they are kept alive within the 30 days since last d/l. This applies to Sendspace, but I'm gonna assume Rapidshare is the same, except 90 days. Either way, it's a secondary link, so it's all good.
If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason. - Jack Handey
Tom Phoenix
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
1114 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-04-14 03:47:58
April 14 2009 03:44 GMT
#23
After some time, I finally managed to complete this. As requested by Striker, each map has it`s most unbalanced matchup and the winrate of that matchup written next to it. Remember, these are statistically the most balanced maps for a certain matchup, so these do not take into account the playstyles of the time they were played. With that said, here are the top 10 maps for each matchup:


Top 10 ZvP Maps


+ Show Spoiler +
1. Sin Peaks of Baekdu (PvT: 59.6%)
2. Blue Storm (TvZ: 38.2%)
3. Destination (TvZ: 64.2%)
3. Neo Requiem (PvT: 72.3%)
5. Neo Forte (TvZ: 85.7%)
6. Tau Cross (PvT: 55.3%)
7. Luna (TvZ: 44.6%)
8. Sin Gaema Gowon (PvT: 60%)
9. Medusa (PvT: 68.4%)
10. Nostalgia (ZvP: 54.5%)
10. Rush Hour 3 (PvT: 25%)

Comments: With exactly 24 wins on both sides, Sin Peaks of Baekdu has an exact 50% winrate and thus has the first place unchallenged. But the lower spots are far more interesting, since the maps are so close in winrates. A mere 0.2% seperates Blue Storm and Destination/Neo Requiem, while the only thing seperating Medusa from a tenth place is a difference of 0.1%. Since Destination and Neo Requiem both have an exact 51.5% winrate and since Nostalgia and Rush Hour 3 both have an exact 54.5% winrate, they share their spots. The fact that Nostalgia`s worst matchup still qualifies for the top 10 list is a testament to it`s statistical balance.

The ZvP winrate of these maps ranges between 46.7% and 54.5%. Byzantium 2 has a 50% winrate in this matchup, but has only 5 wins for each side.


Top 10 PvT Maps

+ Show Spoiler +
1. Longinus 2 (ZvP: 30.8%)
2. R-Point (TvZ: 65.1%)
3. Luna (TvZ: 44.6%)
4. Ride of Valkyries (ZvP: 60%)
5. Wuthering Heights (ZvP: 33.3%)
5. Zodiac (ZvP: 66.7%)
7. Blue Storm (TvZ: 38.2%)
8. Arcadia 2 (ZvP: 43.3%)
9. Nostalgia (ZvP: 54.5%)
10. Namja Iyagi (TvZ 33.3%)

Comments: Again, we have a clear winner in the form of Longinus 2 with 12 wins for each side and thus a perfect 50% win rate. Ironically, the difference between R-Point and Luna is 0.1%, between Luna and Ride of Valkyries is 0.2% and between Ride of Valkyries and Wuthering Heights/Zodiac is 0.3%. Wuthering Heights and Zodiac both stand at a 51.7% winrate (and have the equal score of 15-14), thus sharing 5th place.

The PvT winrate of these maps ranges between 47.2% and 52.6%. With the exception of Monty Hall SE (50%, but only 12 games played), all well tested maps beyond these 10 have a 55% or greater winrate for either side.


Top 10 TvZ Maps

+ Show Spoiler +
1. 815 III (PvT: 72%)
1. Ride of Valkyries (ZvP: 60%)
1. Neo Requiem (PvT: 72.3%)
4. Sin Gaema Gowon (PvT: 60%)
5. Arizona (ZvP: 73.3%)
6. Sin Pioneer Period (ZvP: 75%)
7. Arcadia 2 (ZvP: 43.3%)
8. Neo Arkanoid (ZvP: 75%)
9. Chupung-Ryeong (PvT: 65.5%)
9. Into the Darkness 2 (PvT: 63.6%)

Comments: While the ZvP and PvT lists did include some notable maps, they still hid a few suprises. But if you were in any way bewildered by some of the maps on those lists, then the TvZ list probably left you dumbfounded as some unusual maps claimed the top spots in this matchup. The biggest suprise is the three-way tie for first place. All three of them have a 50% winrate with 815 III having 23 wins per side, Ride of Valkyries 22 wins per side and Neo Requiem 21 wins per side. In addition, Arcadia 2 took 7th place from Neo Arkanoid by a mere 0.1% difference. Lastly, Chupung-Ryeong and Into the Darkness 2 have the same winrate, albeit on opposite sides (52.6% and 47.4%), which gives them both 9th place. While both of them have 19 games in this matchup, that is sufficiently close to call. However, if you feel rather uncomfortable about those two maps, the ones immediatlly following them are Neo Harmony (52.8%/ZvP: 75%), Andromeda (53.3%/ZvP: 59%) and Hitchhiker (53.3%/ZvP: 0%...no, that is not a typo).

The TvZ winrate of these maps ranges from 47.4% and 52.6%. Neo Jungle Story has a 50% winrate in this matchup, but only has 5 wins for each side.


And that is all, ladies and gentleman. If there is popular demand for any other lists, let me know. I will see if me and Striker can arrange some of these maps according to the Old-New scheme. However, it will be difficult, since determining the validity of one map in modern times is a bit of a slippery slope. But we will see.
You and your "5 years of competitive RTS experience" can take a hike. - FrozenArbiter
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